Golden Age Champions Discussion Thread

[John Desmarais]

Mine arrived this weekend.  Still working on chewing through, but....

 

Bohica?  Really?

[Lord Liaden]

Yup. Seems like an appropriate name for a realm of gremlins. (And Fubar is probably my favorite character in GAC.)

 

Was that a good "really," or a bad "really"?

[Darren Watts]

Mitch Albala originally named him Fubar, so of course first chance I got I added all his relatives (Snafu, Tarfu and the mighty Janfu) to the story. Bohica just sort of came naturally after that. I never got Figmo into the story anywhere. Anybody mystified should simply Google the names. dw

[Darren Watts]

Ok..got my copy. Some early thoughts:

 

1)The character writeups are good...VERY good. Even if you have no intention of running a Golden Age era game, a good GM can get a lot of milege out of the plethora of characters that are in here.

 

2) Diversity: Not just Nazi bad guys and not all..."black and white" morality.

 

3) Optimus immediately evoked Oyzmandias from The Watchmen for me.

 

4) Art was mostly good to great. No complaints here.

 

5) Liquidator made me laugh out loud.

 

6) Good amount of background material as well(mostly in the first half of the book).

 

All in all, I think they knocked it out of the park and I can't wait to delve more deeply into it.

 

I think "Ozymandias if he never went crazy" might have been in Riley's original pitch of the character. In the end, he was played less brainy and more Cap-style inspirational, so I hope that shows in his writeup. And yes, beating up Liquidator is a storied tradition in my campaigns. Even when he gets his own back for a little while, we never let him enjoy it for long. dw

[mrinku]

It's probably worth recalling that Ozymandias himself is a twisted version of a previous character (Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt). And while that Charlton Comics character is from 1966, he'd really fit quite well into a Golden Age setting.

 

The original GA Mister Terrific (1942) is probably the GA archetype of this kind of character, which I'm sure Darren was fully aware of

 

And we can all tip a hat to Clark Savage Jr, though once you move beyond the origin and abilities things aren't too similar between the Man of Bronze and the Golden Age self-improvement Paragons.

[bubba smith]

It's probably worth recalling that Ozymandias himself is a twisted version of a previous character (Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt). And while that Charlton Comics character is from 1966, he'd really fit quite well into a Golden Age setting.

 

The original GA Mister Terrific (1942) is probably the GA archetype of this kind of character, which I'm sure Darren was fully aware of

 

And we can all tip a hat to Clark Savage Jr, though once you move beyond the origin and abilities things aren't too similar between the Man of Bronze and the Golden Age self-improvement Paragons.

thunderbolt WOULD tend to fit into the golden age except for his "Leave me out of this" attitude

[John Desmarais]

Yup. Seems like an appropriate name for a realm of gremlins. (And Fubar is probably my favorite character in GAC.)

 

Was that a good "really," or a bad "really"?

 

It was a face palm "really".

[John Desmarais]

Enjoying the book so far.  Lots of cool info - particularly the timeline (love a good timeline).  Ties nicely into Champions Universe continuity, but not so much that breaking it out it is difficult.  So far my only real complaint (if you can call it such) is that I wish it had a few mostly fleshed out scenarios in it (seeds and hooks are nice, but I'm a lazy time constrained GM sometimes).

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's the collective noun for Gremlins: a fubar of them

[Lord Liaden]

Enjoying the book so far.  Lots of cool info - particularly the timeline (love a good timeline).  Ties nicely into Champions Universe continuity, but not so much that breaking it out it is difficult.  So far my only real complaint (if you can call it such) is that I wish it had a few mostly fleshed out scenarios in it (seeds and hooks are nice, but I'm a lazy time constrained GM sometimes).

 

I sympathize. While this doesn't make up for the absence of full scenarios in GAC itself, the outtakes from Darren's writing compiled in The Golden Age Secret Files do include a fairly detailed multi-session adventure, as well as a brief outline for another adventure arc which would need considerable fleshing out.

[DreadDomain]

Hey guys, finally got my hardcopy of Golden Age Champions here down under. I gave it a first read and it is in my opinion a very enjoyable book. I am not a “reviewer” by any stretch of the imagination but here is how I would summarize my thoughts.

 

Cover

Personally, I have never been a fan of Storn’s arts but even if the colours are a bit too washed out for my taste, this piece came together quite well. For roleplaying books, I generally like covers depicting team action with a central villain and this one delivers exactly that. However, it looks like the piece wasn’t quite balanced for a wraparound cover. My main gripe is the gap right in the middle of the cover in between Bulletproof, Seahawk, the title and Doctor Twilight. The title couldn’t have been slightly bigger (the font is good but it looks a bit tame) or even better, Seahawk and the big Robot could have been moved to right a notch to at least bring Mara mostly on the front cover with the robot being knocked back over the spine to the back cover. In comparison, the back cover is very well balanced. I quite like to see “Darren Watt’s…” in the title. Nice touch.

 

Layout, Graphic and Arts

The book looks good. It has the same graphic design as HERO 6^th (as opposed to Champions Complete or Strike Force) and I believe it suits the book very well. Aside from the section with the timeline and the equipment tables where it is sparse for good reasons, there are quite a few pieces of art throughout the book and although art is always subjective, I find most of it contributes to the Golden Age feel. To top it all, some of the art is surprisingly large, a bonus! I also greatly appreciate that most character sheets fit on a single page.

All in all, I find Golden Age Champions looks better than Strike Force (and I like Strike Force). Compared to GAC, I believe SF is blander, with sparse, mostly small piece of arts and generally poorer character sheet layouts. I am still disappointed the KS missed the full colour stretch goal. GAC would have been glorious in colour! If there is ever a full colour version of the book, through Drivethrurpg or otherwise, I will jump on it.

 

Writing, Editing and Proofing

The writing is colloquial, easy and fun to read. It is full of atmosphere and simply put, makes me want to play Golden Age Champions.  Chapter 1 and 2 set the scene nicely by introducing the real world Golden Age of comics and describing the themes and tropes. I appreciate that it doesn’t overdo it and we quickly jump into game elements. There is a nice selection of “before the war” and “during the war templates” but I would have liked to see the Heroic Archetypes developed to the level of what was done in the Champions Super-Hero Gallery. It would have made it easier for people to jump in with builds themed around the era. Also, it doesn’t seem to indicate a preferred starting point total for characters.

Chapter 3 describes the state of the world complete with a 56 pages timeline listing events unfolding between January 1938 to December 1949. A full 12 years of plot seeds! It follows with Chapter 4, Gears and Technology covering weapons and vehicles (real, unusual and weird). This section is low on fluff and high on game stat tables. Chapter 5 covers gm advice and campaigning in the Golden Age by breaking the era into smaller periods, each with slightly different outlook and focus. This chapter is only 20 or so pages but it is dense with campaign ideas. These 20 pages really make you want to play Golden Age Champions. It felt a bit weird to move from timeline (chapter 3) to game stat heavy gear (chapter 4) to then a higher-level campaigning kind of timeline (chapter 5). I have a feeling it would have flowed better to have the timeline after what is now chapter 5.  

Chapter 6 is all about new characters which are diverse and have interesting backstories. The “after the war” blurb is a very nice touch but it seems a lot of them end up dying of cancer (is there an in-story rational to it?). All in all, this is an excellent chapter that introduces cool characters, complete with nice, large pictures (ok, some are very average but they are mostly good) and backstories packed with plot seeds. The write-ups are good and focused, not too simple but not too complex (or convoluted) like we might see sometimes in some HERO supplements. They all seem to bring something to the Golden Age canvas.

If there is something I really appreciated, is that Darren doesn’t shy away from making a stance from time to time. When he describes the Retro versus Period modes of play, he tells us what mode he believes we should choose and why. He does similarly throughout the book around different topics. Too often have we seen in HERO supplements the author laying out options in front of us without making an authorial decision, as if staying at the “toolkit” level was required.  

Generally, proofreading is a bit weaker in GAC that it is in usual HERO books. Not that I took note of any of them but I believe there more typos, formatting error and such then what I am used to. Thankfully, not to the point where it took away from the pleasure of reading the book. GAC loses some brownie points because it lacks an index (disappointing since 6E has one of the best index for a RPG).

 

Summary

It is always easy to point out what could have been done better, what could have been included and in what order or count the number of typos in a book. I have highlighted a few things I would have liked for Golden Age Champions but in the end, suffice to say that the book is easy and fun to read. The writing, supported by the layout and the art, brings the golden age atmosphere to life in a way that makes us want to jump in. The book offers a ton of plot seeds and colourful characters to populate many stories and campaigns.  Simply put, it jumpstarts the imagination and makes me want to play Golden Age Champions.

 

Onwards to the Silver Age!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a great future project would be a Bronze Age Champions book as well.  Its long been presumed the default age for Champions, but we're way past those days and I think the setting is unknown enough to many players these days to warrant a supplement.

[Lord Liaden]

I'd love to see books for all the Ages, but Golden is barely out of the gate. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

Silver Age is next chronologically, and also ancient history for younger gamers. Darren has been writing and playtesting Silver Age Champions material for years, so if the prospects for a followup to GAC look promising that's the next thing we'll see. Considering how long Darren worked on GAC, any prospective Bronze Age book is still a long way off.

[steriaca]

Ok. Golden Age is out of the gate.

 

Next up (but taking there time, cause it will need it): Silver Age Champions.

 

If Golden and Silver does well: Bronze Age Champions.

 

If there is call for it: Atomic Age Champions (set after the Golden Age, but before the Silver Age).

 

After that, if cash can be gathered and sales are well: Iron Age Champions.

[Lawnmower Boy]

I'd love to see books for all the Ages, but Golden is barely out of the gate. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

 

No, no, no. Want Silver Age now. Well, actually, I'm reading in my spare time and only up to Chapter 5, so I want Silver Age in December, and Bronze Age in February, as I'll probably have more time to read after the holidays. 

 

No pressure if the writing schedule slips back a week or two, though.

[steriaca]

No, no, no. Want Silver Age now. Well, actually, I'm reading in my spare time and only up to Chapter 5, so I want Silver Age in December, and Bronze Age in February, as I'll probably have more time to read after the holidays.

 

No pressure if the writing schedule slips back a week or two, though.

I'm sorry, but none of us are Steve Long (except for Mr. Long himself, and he has other things to do right now). None of us are Stephen King either.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah definitely Silver Age next, loads of fun possible in that setting.  Best part of the age?  It doesn't even matter what the motivations of the bad guys are or what they are trying to accomplish.  They're just bad guys.

[mrinku]

One interesting thing with the Silver Age is that there are significant differences between Marvel and DC, much more so than during any other era. 

 

DC still had a lot of baggage from the 40's and 50's, despite rebooting most of their characters (though significantly NOT Superman or Batman). Marvel was a fresh cast and a fresh attitude. No multiple earth shenanigans, and "Marvel Time" hadn't become a thing yet. Captain America and Submariner were brought forward 20 years totally in continuity and the new Human Torch had no connection to the original (who had existed).

 

It's worth remembering that the Fantastic Four was literally Stan Lee's last chance to write super heroes again. If that book had flopped it would have been over. He and Jack Kirby went with a high risk approach of not copying what was going on over at DC (basically ignoring what the publisher had directed Stan to do). The rest is history.

 

Over at DC, Superman stories pretty much hadn't changed, though his power level continued to creep up. Batman had literally not changed since the 40's. You have to wait for the Bronze Age for all that Dark Knight angsty stuff.

 

Emotionally, DC was stunted. Marvel characters were often flawed and consciously limited. Peter Parker struggles with consequences; Ben Grimm rails against his rocky body; The Avengers bicker. The Justice League are all ciphers - super boy scouts (with one girl).

 

Oh, and Sue gets pregnant and gives birth. That sort of stuff does NOT generally happen over at DC. Generally DC even avoided marriages, though Barry Allen and iris west were allowed to in 1966, and Ralph and Sue Dibney were earlier. But Elongated Man is a bit of an outlier for DC anyway. And neither couple are blessed with children (that might imply s.e.x...)

 

It'd be nice to see some discussion of this in the product. Golden Age, Bronze Age and later eras can talk in broad strokes about campaign expectations, because in those eras everyone was largely following the same script. But you might need to make a choice for Silver.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah that's why I tend to call Marvel's first comics as being the beginning of the Bronze age, because of the changes in storytelling and topics.  So, were I to write the Silver Age sourcebook (and I will not be under any circumstances), I'd treat DC's approach as the standard.  

 

But we've hashed over the dating of ages too much already on this forum (and got no further than anyone else has, its all subjective).

[Darren Watts]

Thanks much to everybody for the kind words! Please spread it to your friends, retailers and other sites, especially if you're interested in seeing a Silver Age followup. GA will need to do well in retail and direct sales, because the Kickstart barely squeaked by and we probably can't afford to do that again. dw

[mrinku]

My first impressions were somewhere earlier, but aside from the minor point of leaving descriptions of Australia and New Zealand out of the world roundup (and there WAS white space available!), I love it to death. The characters in this iteration of GAC are a bit truer to the era than some of those in the previous editions, which to my eye tended to be more retro-golden age.

 

You know I would have joined up on the kickstart had I been aware at the time, Darren! At least I bought it the week it was out.

[Lawnmower Boy]

I rather unexpectedly powered through it last night, after getting to the characters' section. It was like God's perfect good [nacho-flavour is for losers]; Once you start, you just can't stop. I liked them, is what I'm saying. I'd say more, but I've got enough to do already, today. 

[PhantomGM2602]

If You guys are going for the Silver age I would humbly suggest modelin' your champs PCs on the Swingin' 60's.

Check out the book HERO A GO-GO! at Two morrows publishing .com http:www.twomorrows.com

It might give you some ideas for a swingin' Champions Campiagn.

[mrinku]

You need to be careful of retro-Silver Age vs actual Silver Age. Not that I'd stop anyone having fun with a realistic 1960's setting, but there is a big difference.

 

You have to remember that the Silver Age is firmly under the restrictions of the original Comics Code Authority. It wasn't revised until 1971 (which many cite as the point where silver became bronze, though there were quite a few things going on around then, like Jack Kirby leaving Marvel and major social upheavals). Here's a gloss of the original 1954 Code that applied and was adhered to during the Silver Age:

• Crimes shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals.
• If crime is depicted it shall be as a sordid and unpleasant activity.
• Policemen, judges, government officials, and respected institutions shall never be presented in such a way as to create disrespect for established authority.
• Criminals shall not be presented so as to be rendered glamorous or to occupy a position which creates a desire for emulation.
• In every instance good shall triumph over evil and the criminal punished for his misdeeds.
• Scenes of excessive violence shall be prohibited. Scenes of brutal torture, excessive and unnecessary knife and gunplay, physical agony, gory and gruesome crime shall be eliminated.
• No comic magazine shall use the words "horror" or "terror" in its title.
• All scenes of horror, excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes, depravity, lust, sadism, masochism shall not be permitted.
• All lurid, unsavory, gruesome illustrations shall be eliminated.
• Inclusion of stories dealing with evil shall be used or shall be published only where the intent is to illustrate a moral issue and in no case shall evil be presented alluringly, nor so as to injure the sensibilities of the reader.
• Scenes dealing with, or instruments associated with walking dead, torture, vampires and vampirism, ghouls, cannibalism, and werewolfism are prohibited.
• Profanity, obscenity, smut, vulgarity, or words or symbols which have acquired undesirable meanings are forbidden.
• Nudity in any form is prohibited, as is indecent or undue exposure.
• Suggestive and salacious illustration or suggestive posture is unacceptable.
• Females shall be drawn realistically without exaggeration of any physical qualities.
• Illicit sex relations are neither to be hinted at nor portrayed. Rape scenes as well as sexual abnormalities are unacceptable.
• Seduction and rape shall never be shown or suggested.
• Sex perversion or any inference to same is strictly forbidden.
• Nudity with meretricious purpose and salacious postures shall not be permitted in the advertising of any product; clothed figures shall never be presented in such a way as to be offensive or contrary to good taste or morals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority

 

Note that a lot of Golden Age material would not have passed muster on this!

 

The 1971 revisions loosened up on the absolute ban of cop deaths and corruption of authority figures, and allowing some depiction of sympathetic criminals, as long as it was portrayed as exceptional and the criminal was punished. Horror monsters were now okay as long as they conformed to "literary" precedents like Dracula and Frankenstein (zombies were right out). Seduction could be hinted at but not depicted. Drugs could now be depicted as long as shown to be a "vicious habit". Both companies almost immediately published books and stories that took advantage of this.

 

Both Marvel and DC did take note of 60's fashion, though it tended to be displaced a few years (most of the creators were pretty square). Ironically, it's not until the early bronze age that you really get many main characters that are "happening" or "hip"... and they are just as cringeworthy as that sounds. Wonder Woman's white pant suit women's lib phase, for example. Or all the cats knowing Kung Fu. Groovy.

[mrinku]

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