Pool question regarding naked advantages

[TheDarkness]

Lot of simple questions from me this week.

 

So, it's my understanding that you can't have naked advantages in a pool, but I'm clearly not quite following what can and can't qualify.

 

I'm assuming that that is naked advantages off of things not in the pool, but I keep seeing builds that seem to ignore this, so I'm assuming I'm missing something.

 

Does +20 STR in a pool count as a naked advantage?

 

Trying to wrap my head around some things.

 

Thanks all.

[eepjr24]

No. +20 STR is Characteristics as a Power. 6e1, 178.

 

- E

[TheDarkness]

No. +20 STR is Characteristics as a Power. 6e1, 178.

 

- E

Oh, duh. It was right in front of my face.

 

Thank you!

[TheDarkness]

So, am I correct that +3D6 blast to a blast outside the pool would also be okay?

 

Last question. Using +3D6 blast to a blast outside the pool, if the +3D6 has an advantage on it, does that advantage only apply to that 3D6, or to the overall blast, and, if the latter, is the cost from the advantage based off of the +3D6, or the combined blast?

[TheDarkness]

To make a clearer example:

 

Within a pool:

 

+3D6 Blast, AP

 

Would this make just the +3D6 AP, or the whole blast, and if the latter, then I assume the cost of the advantage would be based off of the combined cost of the original blast plus the 3D6.

[Hyper-Man]

That would still be a form of Naked Advantage.

 

The more typical option would be to have the base Power in the Framework and then a 'boost' to that Power (possibly with additional Advantages including a Naked one for the base) built individually outside of the Framework.

 

HM

[TheDarkness]

Thanks everyone!

[Amorkca]

That would still be a form of Naked Advantage.

 

The more typical option would be to have the base Power in the Framework and then a 'boost' to that Power (possibly with additional Advantages including a Naked one for the base) built individually outside of the Framework.

 

HM

 

Could you post an example?

[Hyper-Man]

Could you post an example?

 

Sure.

 

60    Example: Multipower, 60-point reserve

6f    1)  Example Blast: Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

10    Blast Enhancement: Armor Piercing (Naked Advantage; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Example Blast (15 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=2

3    Blast Enhancement v2: Armor Piercing (Naked Advantage; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Example Blast (15 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x10 END; -4) - END=10

 

11    Increased & Enhanced Example Blast: (Total: 34 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Blast 3d6 (15 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2) (Real Cost: 5) plus Armor Piercing (Naked Advantage; +1/4) for up to 75 Active Points of Example Blast (19 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2) (Real Cost: 6) - END=15

 

Just change around the 'bonus damage', Advantages and Limitations and you have the basic way to build the Human Torch's Nova Blast for example.

 

edit - adding the example hdc file

Multipower example.hdc

 

HM

[doccowie]

OK, I'm sure I'm an idiot, can I check this is right:

 

Example Power: Blast 4d6, 0END +1/2, Extra Time (Full Phase) -1/2  (30 active points, 20 real points)

 

Blast Enhancement: Area Effect +1, Penetrating +1/2, Armour Piercing +1/4,  Personal Immunity +1/4 for up to 30 active points of Blast, Conc (0DCV) -1/2, No Range -1/2 (90 active points, 45 real points)

 

That would give you the chance to either do a small blast or an explosion  for a total of 65 real points?

 

If you could only do the explosion it would be 70 active points, 28 real points? But it would still be 0END and take a Full Phase?

 

It just seems that these naked advantages can give a weird pricing structure where having a weaker option adds a lot of real points to the cost.

Possibly I'm doing it wrong, possibly it's just inefficient, and it's stupid to try and build the effect you want that way :- )

[Hyper-Man]

One thing to remember is that a Naked Advantage automatically costs END itself (Reduced END purchased as a Naked Advantage is the only exception to this).

 

I highly recommend getting yourself a copy of hero designer which will make figuring out such builds much much easier.

 

HM

[doccowie]

Thanks, I have it at home.

I've just been disappointed by the results of using naked advantages where the initial power has advantages/disadvantages, and the naked power also has extra advantages/disadvantages. The cost always seems really high, just because the power advantage is based on the active cost of the initial power, and the disadvantages only cover part of the cost.

It's clunky, but as always, RAW is a darn good start, but it can't cover everything perfectly the way everyone thinks it should.

[eepjr24]

OK, I'm sure I'm an idiot, can I check this is right:

 

Example Power: Blast 4d6, 0END +1/2, Extra Time (Full Phase) -1/2  (30 active points, 20 real points)

 

Blast Enhancement: Area Effect +1, Penetrating +1/2, Armour Piercing +1/4,  Personal Immunity +1/4 for up to 30 active points of Blast, Conc (0DCV) -1/2, No Range -1/2 (90 active points, 45 real points)

 

That would give you the chance to either do a small blast or an explosion  for a total of 65 real points?

 

If you could only do the explosion it would be 70 active points, 28 real points? But it would still be 0END and take a Full Phase?

 

It just seems that these naked advantages can give a weird pricing structure where having a weaker option adds a lot of real points to the cost.

Possibly I'm doing it wrong, possibly it's just inefficient, and it's stupid to try and build the effect you want that way :- )

Blast 4d6, 0 END (+1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase) (-1/2) - 30 AP, 20 RP

 

Naked Advantages for Blast: AoE (+1), Penetrating (+1/4), AP (+1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4) (52 AP before 0 END) 0 END (+1/2) (79 AP after 0 END), Concentration - 0 DCV (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Full Phase (-1/2) 21 RP without 0 END, 32 RP with 0 END.

 

Blast bought with everything as one:

(20*3.25) 65 AP, 26 RP

 

Blast bought with variable advantages:

4d6 Blast, 0 END (+1/2), Variable Advantages [AP, Penetrating, PI and AoE Only] (+3 1/4) 95 AP, 38 RP

 

I also second buying HD, it is a great tool. 

 

Also, you should define your AoE to let us know what you are putting in there. I am guessing it is 128m Radius Explosion from your description, but it could be a number of other things. Or perhaps you had an error in figuring the AoE advantage?

 

- E

[eepjr24]

Thanks, I have it at home.

I've just been disappointed by the results of using naked advantages where the initial power has advantages/disadvantages, and the naked power also has extra advantages/disadvantages. The cost always seems really high, just because the power advantage is based on the active cost of the initial power, and the disadvantages only cover part of the cost.

It's clunky, but as always, RAW is a darn good start, but it can't cover everything perfectly the way everyone thinks it should.

If I get a chance I will work this up in HD for you, but I think you are including the base cost in both the initial power and in the naked advantage cost, which is incorrect. You figure the advantaged value then deduct the base cost, then figure limitations.

 

- E

[doccowie]

Oooh, thanks - if that's how you do it it would help.

I PROMISE I will try on HD tonight...

[doccowie]

Right. This is from HD:

 

Here's a slightly extreme example - the Transmogrifying Man!

 

MEGAElemental Reassembly:  Major Transform 10d6, Area Of Effect (1m Radius; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1), Anything to Anything Else With Identical Elemental Masses (+1) (375 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, -2), No Range (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2)

83 Points

 

Now, let's say he wants to be able to transform a smaller amount or a larger amount: 

 

Elemental Reassembly:  Major Transform 10d6 (Anything to Anything Else With Identical Elemental Masses), Area Of Effect (1m Radius; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Improved Results Group (+1) (275 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2)

137 Points

 

Mega- Elemental Reassembly:  MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1) for up to 275 Active Points of Elemental Reassembly (275 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, -2)

92 Points

 

OK, so what have I done wrong? The Naked Advantage for Elemental Reassembly to make it Mega costs more than the original MegaPower, with the combination costing 229 points!!!!

[eepjr24]

Well, for starters you left the 5 minute extra time off the middle power, which would reduce it to 69 points.

 

If this is a group naked advantage, you have done it correctly beyond that. Because of the way you phrased it, I think it is actually a single power naked advantage, in which case the final cost of the naked advantage would be either 14 points (if you left the 5 minutes extra time off the base power by mistake) or 25 points (if you didn't). The math on the second one is a little more complex, since you have to re-figure the base power to get that the Megascale costs you 100 AP before you can figure the RP for it.

 

As to how you do the single power naked advantages in HD, I do not know yet. =) I am still rather new to HD but I can do Hero math all day long. lol.

 

FYI, the page references for naked advantages and the difference between the two types is on 6e1, 314-315

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

I've added the hdc file to my example post above.

 

Hope this helps.

 

HM

[eepjr24]

I also just put a question in the HD forum regarding single versus group naked advantages. If Scott or Simon chimes in it may answer your question of how to do it in HD.

 

- E

[doccowie]

Thanks all.

The 5 min limitation on the base power was left off deliberately - I was  trying to simulate someone with a quick but limited power, or a more powerful option that took longer.

Then I just massively increased the active points to highlight the issue :- ) 

 

You may well argue - why do it this way? Which is fair enough. 

It was really because Multipowers are great for options with identical active points, but there isn't a great equivalent for powers with similar real points. 

Using HD it seemed that often it was cheaper to buy these thematically strongly linked powers completely separately, which seemed... inelegant. Fine for NPCs, obviously, but you like to think that heroes and NPCs can have similar sorts of powers, with the holy grail of effectiveness well correlated with points (I know...)

 

Active/real points in Multipowers is a subject which has been discussed before, and there are undoubtedly risks about allowing people Mega options limited by, say, charges. Why wouldn't you put a 1/day 30d6 blast in your multipower in case DD turns up, or a bunch of attacks "only vs robots -1", "only vs humans -1", or whatever? 

But still, sometimes it is a reasonable character construct, and like all good forumites I try to do it by RAW before going to Rule 0 :- )

[eepjr24]

Just curious why you think that it is "inelegant" to buy them separately? 

 

As to your comment that there is not an equivalent, have you looked at using Unified Power with Lockout? Maybe with some Variable Advantages or Variable Limitations for seasoning? There are many ways to skin a cat in RAW without having to house rule things.

 

- E

[doccowie]

"Inelegant" - I use it when two powers that seem to me to have similar game effects have markedly different costs.

The great elegance of the effect based system of HERO is the fact that you just have to say "what do you want to DO?", and then (in the perfect world) similar effects can be crossed over to similar costs.

I realise there is so much opinion tied up in "similar effects", and also hugely dependent on the game - a clearly objective effect like "75% damage reduction vs melee weapons" has a very different effect in a fantasy game vs a cosmic space game.

So, I would never say "wrong" when there is a mismatch between my expectations, I just say it's inelegant, which makes it very clear that opinion is a big part of it.

 

PS So to clarify:

 

Major Transform 10d6 =100pt (100 active and real points)

+Naked Advantage - AE 1 hex (+1/4), extra time full phase (-1/2) (25 active points, 17 real points)

Easy!

 

Now - 3 different powers - C is there just as a mid step

A    Major Transform 10d6, AE 1 hex (+1/4), extra time full phase (-1/2) (125 active points, 87 real points)

B    MT 10d6 AE 1 hex (+1/4), Megascale (+2), ET (-1/2), conc (-1/2)  (325 active points, 162 real points)

[ C    MT 10d6 AE 1hex (+1/4), Megascale (+2), ET (-1/2)   (325 active points, 234 real points) ]

 

Let's say I want to be able to do either A or B by adding +Naked advantage Megascale +2, concentration (-1/2) to A

 

Is the cost based on the active cost difference (325-125) then add concentration (-1/2) = 167 real points?

 

Or the active cost difference (325-125) then add concentration (-1/2) and extra time (-1/2) = 100 real points?

 

Or the real point cost difference between C and A (234-87) then add concentration (1/2) = 98 real points)

 

Honestly, I don't mind if everyone else has lost interest in this :- )

 

Thanks again.

[dmjalund]

Nakedness is not encouraged around the Pool.

 

[Sean Waters]

If we didn't have to use advantages every time we'd have no need for naked advantages, well, other than trying to cram them into a multipower or VPP so that you are basically reducing the cost of building the whole thing, blast and all, in a multipower.  That or you are gaming a Heroic game and want all your ammo to be AP.

 

But we can't, and we can't find out why.

 

Should probably cross post this to the 'Myth of Hero' thread as it is a good example of why some people find the game too complicated.

[eepjr24]

If we didn't have to use advantages every time we'd have no need for naked advantages, well, other than trying to cram them into a multipower or VPP so that you are basically reducing the cost of building the whole thing, blast and all, in a multipower.  That or you are gaming a Heroic game and want all your ammo to be AP.

 

But we can't, and we can't find out why.

 

Should probably cross post this to the 'Myth of Hero' thread as it is a good example of why some people find the game too complicated.

You can not use AP every time by simply buying "Variable Advantages" and paying a premium to be able to switch them around. You can even lessen the cost by limiting the advantages to be applied (less ammo selection).

 

- E