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Helicopter Armament

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MHIEHRPG page 214-215 gives statistics for the AH-1W Supercobra, AH-64 Apache and MHI's MI-24 Hind. 

 

In addition to the listed machine guns / cannon and anti-tank guided missiles, the Apache (and presumably the Supercobra and Hind) can carry missile pods with the 2.76 inch FFAR rocket.  What would be the game statistics for the FFAR?

 

Also, the AGM-114 Hellfire is listed as 4d6 RKA AP Explosion, and the AT-2 as 4d6, AP x 2, Explosion.  The M72A3 LAW on page 151 is 6-1/2d6 AP Explosion. According to Wikipedia the Hellfire has an 18 pound warhead, while the entire M72A3 weights 5.5 pounds.  Is there any reason the M72 should do more damage?

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I did a plot of damage class versus diameter for the shaped charge weapons (M72, Mark 143 SMAW and M47 Dragon) on page 151 of the MHIEHRPG rulebook and there is close to a linear relationship between diameter and damage class.  Extending the graph to a diameter of 178mm - the diameter of the Hellfire - would give the Hellfire a damage of 10d6 RKA Explosion.  As the Hellfire uses a tandem warhead I believe it qualify as APx2, not just AP. 

 

This would make the the Hellfire 10d6 RKA Explosion APx2 +1 Stun Multiple. 

 

This may be too powerful for game balance since as it can take down a master vampire with a single hit, but the general strategy for fighting a master vamp is bring artillery and this would count. 

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A Master Vampire is even tougher than I thought!

 

My proposed Hellfire is 30 damage classes.  Reducing this to 22 damage classes due to the master vampires 8 levels of damage negation makes it a 7d6+1 RKA AP Explosion which does an average of 25.5 body, which I round up to 26.  Reducing this by 4 (8 rPD, halved for AP) means 22 body get through defenses, reducing the master vampire to 3 Body. 

 

With a +1 Stun Multiple an average shot will do 26 x 3 = 78 stun.  Reducing this by 8 (15 PD halved for AP) reduces the master vampire to 2 Stun - stunned but not unconscious. 

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Helicopter weapons:

7.62 mm GPMG

7.62 mm minigun

20mm Gatling cannon

30mm chain gun

23mm Gatling

 

30mm grenade launcher

40mm grenade launcher

 

FFAR 70mm and Russian equivalent

Various ATGMs

 

I think that about covers it. Some Mi-24s carry bombs and/or chemical weapons.

 

Stinger short range AAM

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Thanks - weapons list looks complete. 

 

MHIEHRPG has stats for the machine guns and cannon.  I haven't found anything 6th edition for the FFAR 70mm yet ("Here there be Tigers" dates from 1999 so it is from an earlier version).  6th edition has ATGMs but the published Hellfire does 4D6 RKA AP Explosion, less than the RPG-7 or M72 LAW.  As the Hellfire has a heavier warhead this sounds odd to me.  

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damage scaling has always been strange, heres what I did for 5E stats

Hellfire Missile:  RKA 4d6, Armor Piercing (x2; +1/2), Explosion (+1/2) (120 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), 4 Charges (-1), Limited Arc Of Fire (180 degrees; Only on same horizontal level; -1/2), Custom Modifier (Low Cloud Ceilings cut range in half and slow reaction time to fire a missile; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Custom Modifier (Laser Guided, must have a painted target to launch, but not once fired; -1/4)

 

FFAR Rocket Pod:  RKA 3d6, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2), Increased Maximum Range (3,600m; +3/4), Autofire (3 shots; +1 1/4) (180 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Limited Arc Of Fire (60 degrees; Only on same horizontal level; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Inaccurate (1/2 OCV; -1/4), 19 Charges (+1/4)

 

or go with the Brimstone-2 ATGM... british design as an advanced Hellfire

Brimstone-2 ATGM:  (Total: 256 Active Cost, 65 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Area Of Effect Nonselective (4m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Increased Maximum Range (48,000m; 48km Max Range; +1 1/2) (225 Active Points); OAF Bulky (-1 1/2), 3 Charges (-1 1/4), Custom Modifier (Must have Target Lock to Fire; -1/2) (Real Cost: 53) <b>plus</b> Radar (Radio Group), +3 to PER Roll, Discriminatory (23 Active Points); OIF Bulky Fragile (-1 1/4), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4) (Real Cost: 9) <b>plus</b> +1 with Ranged Combat (8 Active Points); OIF Bulky Fragile (-1 1/4), Custom Modifier (Must have a Target Lock; -1/2), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

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A few more notes on weaponry. Huey Cobras and Mil helis are capable of carrying a heavier unguided rocket. The Zuni 127mm in the case of the Cobra, and a 122 mm equivalent for the latter. Also, there are variant warheads for all rockets and the more modern ATGMs. There's a thermobaric warhead, various earth-penetrating/HEAT warheads for the unguided rockets, and some others. The thermobaric would probably be an explosion with enhanced area and maybe a couple DC larger than the warhead size would suggest.

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STR damage scaling is straight geometric--every +5 STR(doubling lift capacity) adds +1 DC. Firearm damage roughly increases +3 DC per doubling of caliber. Explosives are slightly different, but generally every 2x amount of explosive = +2 DC, X. At least, based on previously printed materials in the official rule set. A ton of TNT is around 29 DC, so I'm pretty sure the Hellfire is not doing 10d6 KA(30 DC). Probably 5 or 6d6 KA, APx2, X(8m radius). The thermobaric might be 5 or 6d6 KA, no AP, X(32m radius).

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Damage scaling tends to be different for shaped charge weapons. 

 

The 66mm LAW weights 5.5 pounds and does 6-1/2d6 RKA EXP AP witn +1 Stun Multiple. 

 

The Hellfire has an 18 pound warhead.  I can't see it doing less damage than a LAW. 

 

I suspect the problem may be with the Explosion Advantage.  Shaped charges by definition focus the effect of their blast.  Perhaps the best way to model them is with an AP RKA plus a lesser linked non AP RKA Explosion.  Thus the LAW might become:

 

6-1/2d6 RKA AP +1 Stun Multiple with a linked 2-1/2d6 RKA Explosion +1 Stun Multiple

 

(The linked 2-1/2d6 RKA Explosion +1 Stun Multiple is the same damage as a 40mm fragmentation grenade)

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Another issue is genre related.  In a superhero campaign a 4d6 RKA Exp AP +1 Stun  Multiple is a serious attack.  In  an MHI campaign where monsters such as a Master Vampire are almost immune to conventional weapons due to high levels of damage negation such an attack can be shrugged off. 

 

Game balance plays an important part in determining how much damage weapons like a Hellfire should do.  When MCB Special Response Team shows up with their Apache helicopters are they a serious threat to a monster such as a Master Vampire that is caught in the open?  If so, I would suggest missile damage based on weapon diameter:

 

Hellfire: 10d6 RKA Exp APx2 +1 Stun Multiple

AT-2 ATGW: 9d6 RKA Exp APx2 +1 Stun Multiple

 

IF the Master Vampire should be able to shrug off a hit from a Hellfire then the published 4d6 RKA Exp APx2 +1 Stun Multiple version should work - although that leaves unanswered the question why the much smaller M72 LAW does 6-1/2d6 RKA Exp AP +1 Stun Multiple.

 

I also rechecked the MHIEHRPG Heavy Weapons chart and realized that the 70mm SA-7B Grail does 7d6 RKA Exp +1 Stun Multiple damage.  As the FFAR is also 70mm and has a heavier warhead than the Grail (FFAR is unguided, Grail has to carry a heat seeker as well) I would use 7d6 RKA Exp +1 Stun Multiple for the HE warhead FFAR as well. 

 

If you keep the Hellfire as 4d6 RKA Exp APx2 +1 Stun Multiple then the FFAR should probably be dropped to 3d6 RKA Exp +1 Stun Multiple for the HE warhead.

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all shape charges have a liner in the cone area of the warhead(usually copper)
only about 10% of the energy applies to the focusing the focal point being the cone depth away from the warhead
this is why you will see probe or a large cone or the warhead has the laser seeker and the warhead is in the middle of the airframe
some have a longer probe to set off explosive reactive armor(ERA)
the rest is just plain old explosion

the Israelis came up with a sleeve for the Hellfire to add more fragmentation to earlier missiles that where used to take out PLO/Hamas/Hesbolla leadership and bomb makers
The USA makes Hellfires and TOWs that have

HE frag for out in the open(not for use vs heavy armor)\

Thermobaric for shooting into an enclosed place(a room of a cave)
fusing can be set to go off say 10' above the ground to frag targets behind a wall or in a foxhole
or after punching through a window or light inside wall or both

as for damage I would base the amount around know use
LAWs would take 5 to 6 rounds to kill a tank using side and rear shots
Javalin should kill most T-72s/ medium sized tanks head on heavier ones with the top attack option(harder shot to make but less armor to punch through with 1 shot
TOW and Hellire/Bromstone should kill a tank from any angle w/ 1 shot
in any case some kind of secondary attack should be made against the ammo and crew and a check for fire

  so if a hit penatrates check first if the ammo is hit and detonates(some tanks have a water jacket or blow out doors(the M1 has blow out doors on the rear deck of the turret
so if the ammo blows if the loading door is closed the crew is safe(if the commander is out and his hatch is not locked back they will get a crushing blow of the hatch slamming into them
Brits use water jackets
next check for fire if there is a fire use the remaining body as a count down for the ammo to go boom and apply the damage from burning fuel for each phase they are still in the tank
lastly check if anybody got hit by armor spalling(I'd go with an ocv of 3 vs a dcv 0 and give 1-3 d6 KA

lastly use the vehicle rules for hit locations and eyeball it from there(use common sense
if the engine is in the way treat it as extra body to defend the crew from spalling and fire in the crew compartment

Damage scaling tends to be different for shaped charge weapons. 

 

The 66mm LAW weights 5.5 pounds and does 6-1/2d6 RKA EXP AP witn +1 Stun Multiple. 

 

The Hellfire has an 18 pound warhead.  I can't see it doing less damage than a LAW. 

 

I suspect the problem may be with the Explosion Advantage.  Shaped charges by definition focus the effect of their blast.  Perhaps the best way to model them is with an AP RKA plus a lesser linked non AP RKA Explosion.  Thus the LAW might become:

 

6-1/2d6 RKA AP +1 Stun Multiple with a linked 2-1/2d6 RKA Explosion +1 Stun Multiple

 

(The linked 2-1/2d6 RKA Explosion +1 Stun Multiple is the same damage as a 40mm fragmentation grenade)

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all shape charges have a liner in the cone area of the warhead(usually copper)

only about 10% of the energy applies to the focusing the focal point being the cone depth away from the warhead

this is why you will see probe or a large cone or the warhead has the laser seeker and the warhead is in the middle of the airframe

some have a longer probe to set off explosive reactive armor(ERA)

the rest is just plain old explosion

 

 

<snip>

 

as for damage I would base the amount around know use

LAWs would take 5 to 6 rounds to kill a tank using side and rear shots

Javalin should kill most T-72s/ medium sized tanks head on heavier ones with the top attack option(harder shot to make but less armor to punch through with 1 shot

TOW and Hellire/Bromstone should kill a tank from any angle w/ 1 shot

in any case some kind of secondary attack should be made against the ammo and crew and a check for fire

<snip>

Thanks. 

 

Perhaps the simplest house rule would be that a missile does AP damage if it hits the target itself, and regular explosion damage  if it just lands in the hex or nearby. Makes AT weapons a bit less powerful but still useful against a Master Vampire.

 

The Vehicle Table on 6E2 196 lists the M1A1 Abrams as 30 DEF Hardened Front, 20 DEF Hardened Side & rear, 25 body.  An M72 LAW would just penetrate the side or rear, so they meet the criteria.  The M47 Dragon would easily penetrate the side and rear but because of the Hardened DEF would need an above average role to penetrate to penetrate the front of an Abrams. 

 

IF a Hellfire is limited to 4d6 AP RKA it cannot penetrate the front of an Abrams, and needs an above average role to penetrate the sides.  If it is APx2 it can easily penetrate the sides but still needs an above average role to penetrate the front. 

 

If the Hellfire is 10d6 APx2 then an average role will penetrate the front and reduce the tank to 5 body, while an average side shot will destroy it completely. 

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My point was for the GM to create the weapons based on the assumption that the weapon values are wrong
a Hellfire should be around  12d6 rka w/ x2 ap,,any explosion should be a secondary attack of around 2-3 d6 killing explosion

Thanks. 

 

Perhaps the simplest house rule would be that a missile does AP damage if it hits the target itself, and regular explosion damage  if it just lands in the hex or nearby. Makes AT weapons a bit less powerful but still useful against a Master Vampire.

 

The Vehicle Table on 6E2 196 lists the M1A1 Abrams as 30 DEF Hardened Front, 20 DEF Hardened Side & rear, 25 body.  An M72 LAW would just penetrate the side or rear, so they meet the criteria.  The M47 Dragon would easily penetrate the side and rear but because of the Hardened DEF would need an above average role to penetrate to penetrate the front of an Abrams. 

 

IF a Hellfire is limited to 4d6 AP RKA it cannot penetrate the front of an Abrams, and needs an above average role to penetrate the sides.  If it is APx2 it can easily penetrate the sides but still needs an above average role to penetrate the front. 

 

If the Hellfire is 10d6 APx2 then an average role will penetrate the front and reduce the tank to 5 body, while an average side shot will destroy it completely. 

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My point was for the GM to create the weapons based on the assumption that the weapon values are wrong

a Hellfire should be around  12d6 rka w/ x2 ap,,any explosion should be a secondary attack of around 2-3 d6 killing explosion

Right. 

 

I have plotted published damage of shaped charge warheads against warhead diameter and found it is pretty much linear - the published Hellfire being an exception. These values also match the damage criteria you set out when matched to the M1A1 Abrams. 

 

So the next thing to do should be to estimate blast damage.  Megaplayboy equated 1000 kg of TNT to 29 DC explosion, -2DC per halving TNT mass.  I will take warhead weight, Relative Effective Factor ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_effectiveness_factor ) and this into account and see what comes up. 

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there was a chart dating back to the to a Star Hero playtest document that iirc is still on the Red October website that may or not prove useful

its ancient[4E] but might prove helpful as for comparisons

heres the table I used for rough ideas on converting damages from Traveller to Hero
its borrowed from the old playtest draft of Star Hero 2, which I found on the Red October BBS site



                           INTEGRATED DAMAGE CLASS TABLE<B-Header>

      The following Integrated Damage Class table is for use with real world
information about weapons and energy output. For example, if you know the
energy output of a gun in foot-pounds, check the energy column of the
chart, cross reference to DC, and round up. For example, a .44 Magnum
produces 1200 FP. On the chart, that cross references to 2d6, as 1200 is
less than 2000 and greater than 1000, rounding up. Energy ouput is listed
in Joules, foot-pounds, and Watts, all of which are numerically equivalent
for this purpose.
      The Explosives column is the amount of TNT that will produce the
indicated Damage Classes. Other explosives are more or less powerful for
the same mass, as indicated in the separate Relative Explosives Power
table.

                            INTEGRATED DAMAGE CLASS TABLE<C-HEADER>
DC       Killing Damage        Explosives     Energy Output
                                              (Joules/Foot-Pounds/Watts)
 1             1 pip           .016 gram             64
 2         1/2d6, 1d6-1        .032                 125
 3              1d6            .064                 250
 4             1d6+1           .125                 500
 5        1 1/2d6, 2d6-1       .250                   1    Thousand/Kilowatt
 6              2d6            .500                   2
 7             2d6+1           1.000 gram             4
 8        2 1/2d6, 3d6-1       2.000                  8
 9              3d6            4.000                 16
10             3d6+1           8.000                 32
11        3 1/2d6, 4d6-1       16.000                64
12              4d6            32.000               125
13             4d6+1           64.000               250
14        4 1/2d6, 5d6-1       125.000              500
15              5d6            250.000                1    Million/Megawatt
16             5d6+1           500.000                2
17        5 1/2d6, 6d6-1       1 Kilogram             4
18              6d6            2                      8
19             6d6+1           4                     16
20        6 1/2d6, 7d6-1       8                     32
21              7d6            16                    64
22             7d6+1           32                   125
23        7 1/2d6, 8d6-1       64                   250
24              8d6            125                  500
25             8d6+1           250                    1    Billion/Gigawatt
26        8 1/2d6, 9d6-1       500                    2
27              9d6            1 Ton                  4
28             9d6+1           2                      8
29        9 1/2d6, 10d6-1      4                     16
30             10d6            8                     32
31            10d6+1           16                    64
32       10 1/2d6, 11d6-1      32                   125
33             11d6            64                   250
34            11d6+1           125                  500
35       11 1/2d6, 12d6-1      250                    1    Trillion/Terawatt
36             12d6            500                    2
37            12d6+1           1 Kiloton              4
38       12 1/2d6, 13d6-1      2                      8
39             13d6            4                     16
40            13d6+1           8                     32
41       13 1/2d6, 14d6-1      16                    64
42             14d6            32                   125
43            14d6+1           64                   250
44       14 1/2d6, 15d6-1      125                  500
45             15d6            250                    1    Quadrillion/Petawatt
46            15d6+1           500                    2
47       15 1/2d6, 16d6-1      1 Megaton              4
48             16d6            2                      8
49            16d6+1           4                     16
50       16 1/2d6, 17d6-1      8                     32
51             17d6            16                    64
52            17d6+1           32                   125
53       17 1/2d6, 18d6-1      64                   250
54             18d6            125                  500
55            18d6+1           250                    1    Quintillion/Exawatt
56       18 1/2d6, 19d6-1      500                    2
57             19d6            1 Gigaton              4
58            19d6+1           2                      8
59       19 1/2d6, 20d6-1      4                     16
60             20d6            8                     32
61    20D6+1               16             64
62    20.5D6               32             128
63    21D6-1               64                 256
64    22D6               128             512
                  

                              RELATIVE EXPLOSIVE POWER<C-Header>
Substance                 DC Modifier
Black Powder                  -2
Homemade Chemical             -2
Dynamite                      -1
TNT                           +0
Blasting Gelatine             +1
Plastique                     +2
Nitroglycerine                +2
Nuclear                       +0
(in TNT equivalents)
Antimatter                    +35
 

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Yeah I have a copy of this from Dave Berge ,1 one of the writers
a 20lb/8kg warhead is a 20d6 explosion(very little shrapnel compared to a purpose built frag weapon so no killing damage)
my feeling that is way too high
10d6 explosion vs anybody outside and 3d6k vs anybody inside should there be a penetration(spall and the liner bouncing around inside the tank

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