# Helicopter Armament

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### #21 bill_seney

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 03:04 AM

My point was for the GM to create the weapons based on the assumption that the weapon values are wrong
a Hellfire should be around  12d6 rka w/ x2 ap,,any explosion should be a secondary attack of around 2-3 d6 killing explosion

Right.

I have plotted published damage of shaped charge warheads against warhead diameter and found it is pretty much linear - the published Hellfire being an exception. These values also match the damage criteria you set out when matched to the M1A1 Abrams.

So the next thing to do should be to estimate blast damage.  Megaplayboy equated 1000 kg of TNT to 29 DC explosion, -2DC per halving TNT mass.  I will take warhead weight, Relative Effective Factor ( https://en.wikipedia...tiveness_factor ) and this into account and see what comes up.

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:42 AM

there was a chart dating back to the to a Star Hero playtest document that iirc is still on the Red October website that may or not prove useful

its ancient[4E] but might prove helpful as for comparisons

heres the table I used for rough ideas on converting damages from Traveller to Hero
its borrowed from the old playtest draft of Star Hero 2, which I found on the Red October BBS site

INTEGRATED DAMAGE CLASS TABLE<B-Header>

The following Integrated Damage Class table is for use with real world
information about weapons and energy output. For example, if you know the
energy output of a gun in foot-pounds, check the energy column of the
chart, cross reference to DC, and round up. For example, a .44 Magnum
produces 1200 FP. On the chart, that cross references to 2d6, as 1200 is
less than 2000 and greater than 1000, rounding up. Energy ouput is listed
in Joules, foot-pounds, and Watts, all of which are numerically equivalent
for this purpose.
The Explosives column is the amount of TNT that will produce the
indicated Damage Classes. Other explosives are more or less powerful for
the same mass, as indicated in the separate Relative Explosives Power
table.

INTEGRATED DAMAGE CLASS TABLE<C-HEADER>
DC       Killing Damage        Explosives     Energy Output
(Joules/Foot-Pounds/Watts)
1             1 pip           .016 gram             64
2         1/2d6, 1d6-1        .032                 125
3              1d6            .064                 250
4             1d6+1           .125                 500
5        1 1/2d6, 2d6-1       .250                   1    Thousand/Kilowatt
6              2d6            .500                   2
7             2d6+1           1.000 gram             4
8        2 1/2d6, 3d6-1       2.000                  8
9              3d6            4.000                 16
10             3d6+1           8.000                 32
11        3 1/2d6, 4d6-1       16.000                64
12              4d6            32.000               125
13             4d6+1           64.000               250
14        4 1/2d6, 5d6-1       125.000              500
15              5d6            250.000                1    Million/Megawatt
16             5d6+1           500.000                2
17        5 1/2d6, 6d6-1       1 Kilogram             4
18              6d6            2                      8
19             6d6+1           4                     16
20        6 1/2d6, 7d6-1       8                     32
21              7d6            16                    64
22             7d6+1           32                   125
23        7 1/2d6, 8d6-1       64                   250
24              8d6            125                  500
25             8d6+1           250                    1    Billion/Gigawatt
26        8 1/2d6, 9d6-1       500                    2
27              9d6            1 Ton                  4
28             9d6+1           2                      8
29        9 1/2d6, 10d6-1      4                     16
30             10d6            8                     32
31            10d6+1           16                    64
32       10 1/2d6, 11d6-1      32                   125
33             11d6            64                   250
34            11d6+1           125                  500
35       11 1/2d6, 12d6-1      250                    1    Trillion/Terawatt
36             12d6            500                    2
37            12d6+1           1 Kiloton              4
38       12 1/2d6, 13d6-1      2                      8
39             13d6            4                     16
40            13d6+1           8                     32
41       13 1/2d6, 14d6-1      16                    64
42             14d6            32                   125
43            14d6+1           64                   250
44       14 1/2d6, 15d6-1      125                  500
45             15d6            250                    1    Quadrillion/Petawatt
46            15d6+1           500                    2
47       15 1/2d6, 16d6-1      1 Megaton              4
48             16d6            2                      8
49            16d6+1           4                     16
50       16 1/2d6, 17d6-1      8                     32
51             17d6            16                    64
52            17d6+1           32                   125
53       17 1/2d6, 18d6-1      64                   250
54             18d6            125                  500
55            18d6+1           250                    1    Quintillion/Exawatt
56       18 1/2d6, 19d6-1      500                    2
57             19d6            1 Gigaton              4
58            19d6+1           2                      8
59       19 1/2d6, 20d6-1      4                     16
60             20d6            8                     32
61    20D6+1               16             64
62    20.5D6               32             128
63    21D6-1               64                 256
64    22D6               128             512

Substance                 DC Modifier
Black Powder                  -2
Dynamite                      -1
TNT                           +0
Blasting Gelatine             +1
Plastique                     +2
Nitroglycerine                +2
Nuclear                       +0
(in TNT equivalents)
Antimatter                    +35

Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf This is Free Trader Beowulf, Calling Anyone... Mayday, Mayday we are under attack... main drive is gone... turret number one not responding... Mayday... losing cabin pressure fast... calling anyone.. please help.. This is Free Trader Beowulf.. Mayday...

### #23 Beast

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:22 AM

Yeah I have a copy of this from Dave Berge ,1 one of the writers
a 20lb/8kg warhead is a 20d6 explosion(very little shrapnel compared to a purpose built frag weapon so no killing damage)
my feeling that is way too high
10d6 explosion vs anybody outside and 3d6k vs anybody inside should there be a penetration(spall and the liner bouncing around inside the tank

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Wandering Punster

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:29 AM

a lot of modern tanks and AFVs etc are fitted with a spall liner thats designed to mitigate the spall effects

I treat it as 50% RDR vrs spalling hits

Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf This is Free Trader Beowulf, Calling Anyone... Mayday, Mayday we are under attack... main drive is gone... turret number one not responding... Mayday... losing cabin pressure fast... calling anyone.. please help.. This is Free Trader Beowulf.. Mayday...

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:39 AM

and lets not even talk about the differences in Laser output in megawatts in Classic Traveller versus whats in GURPS Traveller, this came up when I was writing the specs for various weapons in Traveller Hero

Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf This is Free Trader Beowulf, Calling Anyone... Mayday, Mayday we are under attack... main drive is gone... turret number one not responding... Mayday... losing cabin pressure fast... calling anyone.. please help.. This is Free Trader Beowulf.. Mayday...

### #26 Beast

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:49 AM

that spall protection is only good should the shot NOT penetrate the vehicle(great vs squash warheads)
once penetration happens the spall liner is moot as the penatrator has defeated it

a lot of modern tanks and AFVs etc are fitted with a spall liner thats designed to mitigate the spall effects

I treat it as 50% RDR vrs spalling hits

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### #27 Beast

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:55 AM

yeah I pointed out some flaws in their weapon assumptions w/ projectile mounts vs real world data using Conway's naval ships 1922 to 1946
a brit 5" mount
somewhere the figured tech would get it down to 100kg

and lets not even talk about the differences in Laser output in megawatts in Classic Traveller versus whats in GURPS Traveller, this came up when I was writing the specs for various weapons in Traveller Hero

Beast

Yeoman Robert"Beast" Mitchell Yeoman of the Guard RPFS

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Wandering Punster

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 12:06 PM

that spall protection is only good should the shot NOT penetrate the vehicle(great vs squash warheads)
once penetration happens the spall liner is moot as the penatrator has defeated it

thats also why I was debating making it a 50% reduction with an activation roll... or just a flat 50%, in that it doesnt always work.... or it doesnt stop all the damage

Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf This is Free Trader Beowulf, Calling Anyone... Mayday, Mayday we are under attack... main drive is gone... turret number one not responding... Mayday... losing cabin pressure fast... calling anyone.. please help.. This is Free Trader Beowulf.. Mayday...

### #29 Beast

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 12:09 PM

I would call it impenetrable vs penatrating damage

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 12:16 PM

since I dont remember whats old and new, heres my complete archive of aircraft conversions

Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf This is Free Trader Beowulf, Calling Anyone... Mayday, Mayday we are under attack... main drive is gone... turret number one not responding... Mayday... losing cabin pressure fast... calling anyone.. please help.. This is Free Trader Beowulf.. Mayday...

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 12:21 PM

since I dont remember whats old and new, heres my complete archive of aircraft conversions

#### Attached Files

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Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf This is Free Trader Beowulf, Calling Anyone... Mayday, Mayday we are under attack... main drive is gone... turret number one not responding... Mayday... losing cabin pressure fast... calling anyone.. please help.. This is Free Trader Beowulf.. Mayday...

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 11:32 AM

and heres my collection of assorted equipment prefabs for vehicles of all kinds

#### Attached Files

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Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf This is Free Trader Beowulf, Calling Anyone... Mayday, Mayday we are under attack... main drive is gone... turret number one not responding... Mayday... losing cabin pressure fast... calling anyone.. please help.. This is Free Trader Beowulf.. Mayday...

### #33 bill_seney

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 11:48 PM

and here's my collection of assorted equipment prefabs for vehicles of all kinds

Great stuff.  Thanks!

### #34 Kragshot

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 11:55 AM

I just want to say that this is awesome stuff...as I'm still learning the system, I can't contribute to the theorycraft part of the discussion.

But I know weapons and explosives...master vampires should not be able to shrug off hellfire missiles. I know that the idea behind MHI is that the monsters are tougher...but they shouldn't be so tough that they can shrug off vehicular weaponry. The other point behind the MHI universe is that for the first time in history; our conventional weapons are at a technological level now where we can genuinely fight monsters on equal footing. I could see something like Lord Machado regenerating from a blast like that in about a day or so, but fire and heat are not particularly more effective against him/it either.

If you recall the lead-up to the battle for DeSoya Caverns, the other masters were more than willing to disregard the warnings that both Susan and Jager were offering them regarding modern weapons. And while even Jager might be a bit out of date with his knowledge (being a WWII "veteran"), Susan was and is right up to date with her knowledge of modern weaponry. The two of them knew to stay the hell out of that fight and rightfully so; though a lot of good hunters got killed that day, those masters got their asses handed to them, as they should have.

Anyway, MHI and that National Guard unit were only packing squad-based weaponry in that fight. The heaviest things that they had were man-portable anti-tank weapons and light AP mortars. The heavier munitions on gunships are enough to turn normal people into red paste. A couple of Hellfires should be able to put paid to a pack of "old fangs" in proper fashion; even with all of their regeneration. Unless the vampire is also casting rituals to protect itself, that kind of explosive force should be more than enough to put a master down. Hell...if they were packing a Carl Gustav; then that should have generated enough explosive force to separate a master's head from its body, so to speak.

But then what do I know...I'm still trying to figure this particular system out....

-- "Every single day, Things get in my way Someone has to pay... for the little things."

"The Little Things"- Danny Elfman

-- "You may think yourself mighty, but there are things in this world that you do not understand, and they are both greater and more terrible than you...." From "The Song of the Kite Flutes"

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 11:57 AM

thats why this is an open discussion forum... I make no claim to special knowledge etc.. its nice to have more thought on this stuff

Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf This is Free Trader Beowulf, Calling Anyone... Mayday, Mayday we are under attack... main drive is gone... turret number one not responding... Mayday... losing cabin pressure fast... calling anyone.. please help.. This is Free Trader Beowulf.. Mayday...

### #36 massey

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 04:12 PM

Ultimately, you're going to have to set the damage values at a point that is fun for your game.  Establish your own benchmarks, set your own damage, and don't worry about official stats.  In ages past, Hero was multiple similar game systems (Champions, Danger International, Fantasy Hero, etc).  Those were all combined together into the modern Hero System, but not all the material meshes exactly.

For instance, in an MHI game, gun lovers are encouraged to go hog wild with custom weapons and ammo.  Different guns have different stats to help distinguish them.  This gun will have +1 range modifier, that gun will have +1/2 D6 damage.  This other gun will have +2 OCV.  And then you get into the weird ammo and some of it is armor piercing and some of it is penetrating, etc.  You also start with a baseline where guns are lethal to normal humans.  You want to be able to blow somebody's head off with your giant hand cannon, so you're going to have higher base dice.  So then when you build a rocket or a missile, it needs to be much higher damage to really drive home the point that this is a heavy explosive.  Then to build a vehicle like a tank, you need to give it high defenses and make it hardened (or double hardened) so it can survive your handguns maybe your missiles.

In Champions, when a normal character can shrug off missiles and rip through tanks, it doesn't benefit to have 12D6 RKA Explosion missiles.  The power scale gets way out of hand, really fast.  It's not cool to need a guy with a 180 Str to kill a tank in a superhero game.  Weapons that have individual stats in an MHI game should probably be lumped together in a standard Champions game.  A Hellfire missile should probably be more like a 4D6 RKA than a 12D6 one.

These differences are not really a problem unless you want some sort of crossover value between the two games.  Or you look at a Champions tank and wonder why its so much weaker than an MHI or Dark Champions tank.  It's not supposed to be weaker, the scale is just compressed.

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