Hammer: melee or thrown

[Rebar]

I'm getting back in after being out of the game for a long time.

 

I always had difficulty constructing a weapon that can be used HTH or thrown.

 

In this case, it is a blacksmith's hammer.

 

Of course, once thrown it can't be reused until recovered.

Can I add it to my STR?

 

Can I construct it with a MP?

[Hyper-Man]

Here is how I did Hawkgirl's Mace for 5e:

Nth Metal Mighty Mace of Power Multipower

38 Multipower, 76-point reserve, (76 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1)  

3u 1) Smash:  Hand-To-Hand Attack +5d6, Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; Can't Be Blocked; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (75 Active Points); OAF (-1), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

Notes: 10d6 w/STR. 12d6 w/Martial Strike. Passing Strike adds +1 DC/15" movement. 7 END

2u 2) Throw:  Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Penetrating (+1/2) (75 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), OAF (-1), Lockout (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4)

 

I did something similar for Thor's Hammer built for 5e here:

51 The Hammer: Multipower, 90-point reserve, (90 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (-1/2), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)
4u 1) Swing!: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Examples: x2 KB, AP, Penetrating, AOE 1 Hex Accurate, Affects Desolidified, Reduced END, etc...; +2) (90 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 9
Notes: Can be combined with up to 30 STR.
5u 2) Throw!: Energy Blast 12d6, No Range Modifier (+1/2) (90 Active Points) 9

 

Blast is the 6e Power to use for 'throwing' a weapon.  Limitations determine whether it automatically returns or not.

 

HM

[Dino]

You could also buy it as a Killing Attack - Hand to Hand, and put the Ranged based on STR (+1/4) advantage on it.

[steriaca]

You could also buy it as a Killing Attack - Hand to Hand, and put the Ranged based on STR (+1/4) advantage on it.

You can also buy Ranged Based On STR with Hand-To-Hand Attack.

[Hyper-Man]

You can also buy Ranged Based On STR with Hand-To-Hand Attack.

 

Not a legal combination per RAW.

 

HM

[steriaca]

Not a legal combination per RAW.

 

HM

Where in Champions Complete does it saw that?

[Rebar]

Sticking with 5E rules.

 

Character prolly "only" has 20STR. (It's a 200pt game)

 

It was going to be just a plain ol blacksmith's hammer.

 

But :slaps forehead: the character can TK iron substances.

 

So pretty much Thor's hammer.

 

Oops. Not so original after all.

[Rebar]

Sh Boom! what is the rationale for   Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; Can't Be Blocked; +1/4) on Hawkgirl's Smash Power:

 

Is that something you'd apply to any hammer weapon, or is that specific to HawkGirl's concept?

[Tom Cowan]

TK'ing the other person's hammer too, LOL and not just your hammer, Id like to see Thor do that trick

[Cantriped]

Where in Champions Complete does it saw that?

CC 70 - Last Sentence of Paragragh 2 of the Hand-to-Hand Attack power description (line 18): "HA cannot cannot take the ​Ranged Advantage" (the typo is in the book, I simply repeated it).

 

Now, you can make a fairly solid argument for that restriction not applying to "Range Based On STR" (CC 112); Which is actually listed as an entirely separate Advantage from "Ranged" (CC 113)... But then... so is ​Limited Range​ (CC 109).

 

But personally, I think that is a pretty stupid and unreasonable restriction, especially considering that Hand-Killing Attacks can (and frequently do) take the Ranged, Limited Range, and Range Based On STR ​Advantages. However, history has shown we can argue indefinitely about how the rules should​ be, it doesn't change how they actually are. At my table, I personally would have no problem with a character taking any version of Range on a Hand-To-Hand Attack... but then again, I would probably also allow a Blast or RKA to take a +1/2 Advantage to apply STR (or another Characteristic) to damage.

[bigdamnhero]

CC p165 addresses this:

HTH weapons the the user can throw (like throwing knives) are built on HKA, also have Charges and Beam, and add Range Based On STR.

6e2 p201 says the same thing about Range Based On STR, tho it doesn't mention Charges & Beam (which seem like overkill to me personally).

 

The standard RAW build for things like spears & javelins includes Range Based On STR, so I don't see why you couldn't add it to a hammer.

 

Edit: ...unless there's some reason why HA should be treated differently from HKA in this respect? Nothing comes to mind.

[Cantriped]

Edit: ...unless there's some reason why HA should be treated differently from HKA in this respect? Nothing comes to mind.

Besides "because they said so".

The main reason why HA is prohibited from taking Ranged Advantages is because in terms of game design logic:

1)  Hand-To-Hand Attack is basically just Strength with a -1/4 Limitation so that it only applies to damage.

2)  Strength is discouraged/prohibited from taking Ranged Advantages because it could be used to "replace" Telekinesis (because it would be cheaper to further Advantage).

Ergo:

3) HA must also be prohibited from taking Ranged advantages for the sake of consistency. 

[Lord Liaden]

There's a way I've long done this for Normal Damage weapons, which isn't in any Hero System rule book, but IMHO follows system precedents.

 

Of course the rules allow for HKA to buy the Ranged Advantage (+1/2). But we also often find published examples of HKA bought with the Limitation, No Strength Adds To Damage (-1/2), which in terms of game mechanics and cost is identical to RKA with the No Range Lim (-1/2). This led me to conclude that adding the effects of Strength to any Ranged attack would amount to +1/2.

 

Hence I've sometimes allowed a Blast/Energy Blast to be bought with a custom Advantage, "Strength Adds To Damage" (+1/2). As with an Advantaged HKA, the amount the damage can be increased by Strength is pro-rated for the Advantage.

[Cantriped]

Hence I've sometimes allowed a Blast/Energy Blast to be bought with a custom Advantage, "Strength Adds To Damage" (+1/2). As with an Advantaged HKA, the amount the damage can be increased by Strength is pro-rated for the Advantage.

I would allow that modifier at my table as well. However, considering that Ranged (+1/2) isn't one of the modifiers which Added Damage is prorated against, I do not think that ​STR Adds To Damage​ (+1/2) should be either for two reasons.

First:  You are only supposed to prorate for modifiers which "directly affect how the victim takes damage" (like Armor Piercing for example). STR Adds To Damage ​doesn't affect how the victim takes damage, it affects how the character can add to the damage taken by the victim.

Second:  Such a ruling would make it more advantageous to purchase an HKA with ​Ranged​ over an RKA with STR Adds To Damage​ because in one case the advantage is prorated and in the other it isn't. Since the two powers would otherwise have the same CP cost that would be unfair.

[Lord Liaden]

I admit I'm not that versed in the 6E rules; but under 5E, according to the FAQ, Ranged is one of the Advantages for which Strength is pro-rated:

 

Question: Can a character apply the Ranged Advantage to HKA, thus creating an attack that works at Range but to which he gets to add STR damage?

Answer: Yes; this is frequently done to build throwing knives and similar weapons. The character doesn’t have to buy the Ranged for his STR as well, but the STR addition to damage is pro-rated for the Advantage, per the usual rules.

 

Can you please cite the ruling that says otherwise?

[Cantriped]

I admit I'm not that versed in the 6E rules; but under 5E, according to the FAQ, Ranged is one of the Advantages for which Strength is pro-rated:

 

Question: Can a character apply the Ranged Advantage to HKA, thus creating an attack that works at Range but to which he gets to add STR damage?

Answer: Yes; this is frequently done to build throwing knives and similar weapons. The character doesn’t have to buy the Ranged for his STR as well, but the STR addition to damage is pro-rated for the Advantage, per the usual rules.

 

Can you please cite the ruling that says otherwise?

 

Under paragraph three of the definition of "Damage Class" (CC 156; FHC 183). I won't reproduce the entirety of the text here, as doing so is prohibited by the copywrite clause in both CC and FHC.

However, the aforementioned paragraph basically gives the general rule I quoted above, says that what advantages are prorated is ultimately the GM's call, and then lists 21 different advantages which typically should be prorated; including Area of Effect, Armor Piercing, Constant, Does BODY, and Penetrating. Notably, neither Reduced Endurance, or any of the Range (​Limited Range, Ranged, or Range Based On STR) modifiers are included in that list, and Charges is only included in its Boostable form.

[bigdamnhero]

Ah, the full text for HA in 6e1 p231 (and 5ER p125) makes it more explicit:

A character may not apply the Advantage Ranged to an HA (except possibly when building throwable HTH Combat weapons in Heroic campaigns).

So assuming this is a superheroic game, then the RAW answer is no and you probably need to go the MP route described above.

 

Doesn't make much sense to me tho. Any potential for abuse that might exist in allowing Ranged HA exists just as much with Ranged HKA,* so allowing one but not the other doesn't compute IMO. Letting someone buy a dagger or spear with Range Based On STR, but forcing them to build a Multipower to do the exact same thing with a thowable hammer defies common sense and adds needless complexity. So personally, I'd treat it as a Caution Sign and look closely just to make sure someone isn't being munchkiney. But for something like this, I would allow it.

 

* As far as I'm concerned, HKA is just an HA with a +0 Advantage "Killing Damage." But I realize that's not Hero doctrine.

[Hyper-Man]

Sh Boom! what is the rationale for   Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; Can't Be Blocked; +1/4) on Hawkgirl's Smash Power:

 

Is that something you'd apply to any hammer weapon, or is that specific to HawkGirl's concept?

 

Standard Superhero/Rebar, It was specific to Hawkgirl's Mace based on how hard she could hit with it. However, that was a very old build that was uploaded to Killershrike.com.  I probably wouldn't use Indirect to model it now. Especially since Wonder Woman was able to block the Mace with her Bracelets in Justice League Unlimited.

 

Another alternative method to model a 'thrown hammer' that returns would be to build a modest HA that adds to the Character's STR and combine it with Stretching with Does Not Cross Intervening Space.  That way the hammer does the same damage whether the target is adjacent or at the maximum range of the Stretching. It also gets a de facto No Range Modifier if the Stretching has a range that normally would incur a penalty for other ranged attacks.

 

HM

[Rebar]

Another alternative method to model a 'thrown hammer' that returns would be to build a modest HA that adds to the Character's STR and combine it with Stretching with Does Not Cross Intervening Space.  That way the hammer does the same damage whether the target is adjacent or at the maximum range of the Stretching. It also gets a de facto No Range Modifier if the Stretching has a range that normally would incur a penalty for other ranged attacks.

 

HM

 

Yeah, I might do that. And then I could simply make it restrainable, for those times when it is prevented from coming back.

 

I'm wondering how accurate I should try to make it - eg. I wonder about adding a delay on the return.

 

Or, since he's already got TK without the hammer, I should just make the hammer part of the SFX.

 

Hm. So many possibilities...

[pinecone]

I don't "do" 6th...But I figure if you buy "Fine work" on the TK, you can wield Any weapon with your TK (before lims anyway) So you just buy a Hammer, and you're done.

[steriaca]

I don't "do" 6th...But I figure if you buy "Fine work" on the TK, you can wield Any weapon with your TK (before lims anyway) So you just buy a Hammer, and you're done.

Generally yes. Also remember STR Limitations (for real weapions. TK STR is still STR)

[Cassandra]

Multipower (50 Points) OIF: Hammer (-1/2) (33 Points)

u) EB 10d6 (3 Points)

u) HA +4d6, HTH Attack (-1/2) (1 Point)

u) Missile Deflection [All Ranged Attacks] +5 (2 Points)

 

Total 39 Points

 

This is a mystic Hammer that always returns to the owner's hand.  

 

The HA and Missile Deflection can be used together when the owner is engaged in HTH Combat, so they could do damage and use the Hammer to deflect ranged attacks.

 

These Skills would be very useful to use with the Hammer

 

CSL: Combat +1

Defensive Strike

Martial Block

Martial Strike

Use Martial Arts with Hammer 

[Rebar]

To model the hammer that he can retrieve at-will, could I buy that as OIF, or restrainable, or both?

 

It's not magical; it requires his TK, so it could get stuck or captured, etc.

Restrainable seems to be meant more for bodily appendages (such as wings or tails), so maybe thats not appropriate.

[steriaca]

To model the hammer that he can retrieve at-will, could I buy that as OIF, or restrainable, or both?

 

It's not magical; it requires his TK, so it could get stuck or captured, etc.

Restrainable seems to be meant more for bodily appendages (such as wings or tails), so maybe thats not appropriate.

Depends on how you see it. It could be Focus AND Restrainable. Or it could be only a Physical Manifestation (can not be taken away, but can be destroyed, and can be subject to lots of things). Or even just Only In Alternative Identity. Or even no limitation at all.