Crusher Bob Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Entangles don't normally provide any 'stickyness', so if I want my entangle to also attach you to the ceiling, or prevent you from being knocked back when hit by something, how to do that? Clinging UBO seems like a good choice, but quickly becomes expensive since it includes usable as attack (+1.25). In addition this has all sorts of oddities: is the Hulk more strongly stuck down by my webs because he is stronger? Or does it use my strength? If so, shouldn't I want it to use, I dunno, how many active points I have in entangle, or something instead of how strong I am? Adding knockback resistance can be cheaper, since the base point total is lower, but that doesn't stop people from carrying away entangled guys, it just stops them from going places when you hit them. And you can't stick people to the ceiling with it. Maybe allow a 5 to 10 point adder to entangle that also makes the entangled target cling to surfaces, with STR based on the active entangle points? or entangle DEF? Guess this should be a five point adder, since the entangled guy is already prevented from moving. So really, it just resists other people moving him without getting him out of the entangle first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amorkca Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Just take the advantage "Sticky" This advantage makes a character Sticky, any character who touched a character will also be affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 I am pretty sure that the basic rules for Entangle already handle this. Examples like handcuffs have limitations that remove this feature. I just re-read the basic description of the power in 6e1 and it at best infers this conclusion. I also considered suggesting the Sticky Advantage but it primarily deals with other characters touching the primary target. You could build a custom Limited form of that Advantage but I don't think its needed. Derek's Webshooter build in Champions Complete page 212 did not use any form of the Sticky Advantage and it's pretty clear that his build is modeling everyone's favorite wall crawler. For a definitive answer I recommend asking Mr. Long in the Rules Forum. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Bob Posted December 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 But the 'sticky' advantage just makes people who touch you affected by the entangle too. It doesn't actually attach you to other things. And it doesn't prevent people from moving you around with telekinesis, or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Hmmm, a challenge! I considered Sticky, but it doesn't work for the problem presented, The first person to touch the entangled target is stuck but a second person can pick up the first by RAW and move both as long as he avoids the original target. It also doesn't handle many SFX of Flight. A linked Clinging UAA should work against everything but certain SFX of Flight also. It also increase the difficulty of being moved by KB if the target is touching a surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Another option would be to create an Advantage for Entangle. Let's call it Anchored, price it at +1/4 or +1/2 and use the UAA Clinging for the effects and the target numbers to move the target. That way, a flyer could be anchored to a point in the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Bob Posted December 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Have posted a question in the rules forum. Have used the term 'attach' so that it is clearly distinct from 'sticky' as that already has a rules definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 What you are talking about not being defined is the special effect of how an entangle works. Special effects are left up to the player when they design their power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesedrith Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 What you are talking about not being defined is the special effect of how an entangle works. Special effects are left up to the player when they design their power. Yep, and now this thread is making me realize the potential of doing "increased gravity" or "super magnetism" as Entangles. I'm not sure why I haven't thought of that before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitekeys Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 The special effect of your Entangle should determine whether the Entangled Character can move once Entangled. Special effects like quicksand, spider webs, melting someone's metal powersuit boots to the floor, or bolo-ing someone's wings and legs, (or, from the book, glue bombs and gravity manipulation) immobilize characters. Further, any Entangle that grabs a part of the body used for movement with the Restrainable, Physical Manifestation, or Focus Limitations, or something else used for movement based on common sense, should prevent the use of them. Whether they have secondary movement abilities remains to be seen. You may have got mind-swiped by "stickiness" as a special effect: 6E1 215: "Typically an Entangle completely immobilizes a character, making it impossible for him to move or use any Movement Power except Teleportation, but the exact effect depends on the special effect of the Entangle and the Movement Power." As for Knockback, 1. Depending on your Adders and Advantages, and your special effects, you would have to destroy the Entangle first, before attacking the character in order to do any Knockback. 2. The GM would determine the results of Knockback based on common sense and dramatic sense, given the special effect of the Entangle, much as the GM would determine Knockback for special circumstances like standing back against a wall, a character currently Grabbed, etc. I would suggest rereading the rules on Grab and Knockback and taking your cues from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Question, if Entangles don;t stick you to a surface, what is stopping a superman-type flyer from flying while entangled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Seems like AE 1m would do it; that way you and what is nearby is entangled. Otherwise, you only wrap up your target like a cable around their arms and legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Question, if Entangles don;t stick you to a surface, what is stopping a superman-type flyer from flying while entangled? The same thing that does when they are grabbed. Nothing. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 I am thinking that using a limited TK (physical manifestation, only to keep two things joined) - continuing charge, 0 end might be the way. It provides a way of pushing two things together with a constant STR. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitekeys Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 Question, if Entangles don;t stick you to a surface, what is stopping a superman-type flyer from flying while entangled? The effects of Entangle are heavily dependent on the special effect. The answer provided by Hyper-Man is only correct if the special effect of the Entangle allows flight. Grundy, after all, isn't anchored to the ground*. The example from the book is handcuffs: a character with handcuffs can fly around but it doesn't free him from the handcuffs. If the special effect of your Entangle is a force field, like the one trapping Superman at the beginning of Justice LEague Unlimited Season 2 Episode 25 "Starcrossed", then you can't fly around. All of this is in the rule book**. *The most salient difference between a Grab and an Entangle, other than that one is a Power and one is a Maneuver, is that Grabs are defined as only wrapping legs or arms, while Entangles warp all four by default (again, also dependent on special effects). **In some cases, the character may retain the ability to move, but remain entangled when he does so. For example, a character with Flight could fly while handcuffed - but this wouldn't free him from the handcuffs, he'd just take them with him. But if his Flight had the Gestures Limitation, he couldn't fly, since the handcuffs prevent him from making the proper gestures. (6E1 215) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitekeys Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 Seems like AE 1m would do it; that way you and what is nearby is entangled. Otherwise, you only wrap up your target like a cable around their arms and legs. Again, dependent on special effect. Arms and legs are wrapped by default, but the character is also totally immobilized and at 0 DCV by default as well. There's no need to add the Area of Effect Advantage if you want a character to become immobilized. If my Entangle is a Triggered spiderweb, and my target falls into it, how can the GM justify allowing the character to move locations if the web is anchored to the walls? If my Entangle is a freeze gun that encases people in a block of ice, how can the GM justify allowing the character to wriggle around as if only tied up with cables? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 but some of these special effects seem to be worth points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Bob Posted December 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 Also, it's not the entangled character moving around, it's other people moving the entangled character around. Entangles don't stop people from picking you up and carrying you away, nor do they provide any knockback resistance when you hit someone who is entangled and theoretically 'attached' to the scenery. No one is really arguing that when Bob is wrapped in spiderwebs, Bob can't move. But when Bob's team is retreating, Alice just picks up Bob and runs away. In addition, if Bob is trapped in a 'big' spiderweb, and Alice hits him, he goes flying (in theory out of the big spiderweb), but he may be still entangled when he hits the ground. So the question becomes, is 'attachyness' of the entangle a waek enough property that it could just be SFX adjudication, or is adding 'attachyness' to an entangle worth points? Or, like (Does no Body) are 'attachy' vs 'non-attachy' entangles more or less equal, and should you just pick one when you buy your entangle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 area effect or spreading to include the ground or adjacent wall/lightpole/etcsticky advantage would include anything that the target is touching (other characters, the ground,etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 Steve has answered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 Again, dependent on special effect. Arms and legs are wrapped by default, but the character is also totally immobilized and at 0 DCV by default as well. There's no need to add the Area of Effect Advantage if you want a character to become immobilized. The power is designed in such a way as that it works to prevent taking physical action, not prevent being picked up and moved about or flying away. Nothing about the power disables flight, for instance, or necessarily sticks you to a specific spot or immobilizes you. Special effect is what defines how the power looks, not so much how it behaves in game terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitekeys Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 I see your point about other characters moving the Entangled character. And while that may have not been enough to convince me that special effects, common sense, and dramatic sense, wouldn't give us a clear idea about how that should work, dmjalund's comment about the cost is hard to argue with. However, I'm still confused about the Knockback then. Since attacking an Entangled character means that the Entangle takes damage first, then by the time damage is getting through to inflict Knockback, the Entangle should be destroyed at that point (depending on special effects). It seems like a moot question to me. I reworded the question to Steve and included some other special effects of Entangle. We'll see what he says! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 Why would an entangle affect KB normally? An entangle doesn't function differently from PD/ED in terms of defenses and they have no effect on KB. You can be Knocked into the next county without taking damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Bob Posted December 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 In addition, due to 'entangle does not take damage' advantages or other special circumstances, the entangle may not take damage when the entangled character does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 I would probably price Adhering at +1/2. What would Adhering do? It attaches a person to an object with Entangle. To move the object, the subject must be able to lift the object. And the pore guy inside the entangle? He gains knockback resistance equal to the object he is attached to, within common and dramatic sense (if attached to the ground, he doesn't gain knockback resistance of the planet Earth, but does gain enough to make dramatic sense as the area needs to break around him before he goes flying off). Why price it at +1/2? Because depending on where the target is when the entangle hits, he might only be attached to air or water (which means, game wise, to nothing). To have him attached to the first thing solid he hits, add Sticky. If you want him locked in place no mater where he is, increase Adhering to +1 (which allowes the target to litterly freeze in place even in water and air). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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