Jump to content

Chars with conditional SPD: surprising escapes, boss fights, and other ideas


Hadmar von Wieser

Recommended Posts

We had an old thread about the Speed Chart where Sean Waters came up with the idea of „random speed“ using SPD with Activation.

I have been experimenting with conditional SPD a lot. Here some ideas:
 

There is DC's WOLF SPIDER, an assassin with 4 additional cyber-arms. A rulebook example to teach beginners the difference between SPD 2 and SPD 6, when his Activation roll (PS12 for the whole turn) succeeds.

 

A sniper, dangerous enough for the team with SPD 2 shooting without been seen, but with +1 SPD for changing positions if discovered, and +2 SPD for trying to escape so he gives the angry heroes a thrilling hunt.

 

The SHADOW THIEF gaining additional SPD when jumping through the timeless Shadowlands.
 

A mad scientist like Veronica Cale who injects +2 SPD super-adrenaline as soon as she sees another masterplan being torn apart by WONERWOMAN. To push more buttons or to escape.

 

The PARASITE who loves to TRANSFER SPD at his first attack so SUPERMAN can suffer dramatically and he has more phases to transfer even more powers.
 

LOOSE CANNON who is plainly crazy and sometimes acts with SPD 4 and sometimes with SPD 2.
The JOKER seems to do this a lot, too. Especially when he is aborting to a never before used phase for an action that is no attack like his famous gun with the BANG flag. (Though I build this is as FX usually.)

 

the_joker_bang_by_samzombieboy-d82cytf.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Part 2: Some villains seem to get faster the longer the fight lasts.

DOCTOR DOOM often escapes with additional SPD he never used in the fight.

CATWOMAN usually almost matches BATMAN's SPD – but in those elusive and erotic last moments of a fight she somehow always seems to escape with one more maneuver than he is able to counter.

 

Then there are those typical Nazi Officers or Occult Middle Managers. As long as there is a room full of stormtroopers or zombies they only get 2 pics per page commanding, boasting, taunting, and insulting the heroes. But some of them when standing alone suddenly evolve into a RED SKULL or a DESAAD, who is a very capable and fast fighter and is able to hold his own against one or two of the heroes.

 

Finally there is a kind of Boss Fight where this works fine:

ULTRON or KALIBAK (DARKSEID's son). I build them with

SPD 4

+1 SPD as soon as his copies / Parademons are dispatched

+1 SPD when fighting more than 3 opponent's at once
At first he seems to be just a ridiculously strong and indestructible brick.

The team's powerhouse (e.g. IRON MAN or WONDERWOMAN) will take him on and exchange blows.

Or when CAPTAIN AMERICA / BATMAN takes him on, that hero can SPD 6 around him in circles, dodge, abort, use all his tricks, and still look good.

But as soon as the team has taken down his minions he goes in overdrive.

And in the final round when the whole JUSTICE LEAGUE / AVENGERS gang up on him, he explodes with action and is able to deal each hero a personal and almost lethal attack – before he finally goes down.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on and experiences with SPD change for dramatic storytelling effects.

3972168-tt.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a character the white chaplain (the military chaplain for a super soldier program experienced a total morality inversion when exposed to an unstable mix of the serum now a crime boss with a fixation on religious iconography).

 

The white chaplain is a burst speedster able to move with superhuman speed in short bursts.

 

Basically he has 12 spd but his extra spd costs END every phase so he can deliver a terrifying hurricane of violence one turn but will spend the next pretty much immobile catching his breath.

 

He's absolutely terrifying to groups of agents and if he gets a chance can totally devastate a hero team.

 

Usually his minions will soften them up so he can then best them in a single explosive burst of violence.

 

He's partly based on Christian Bale's Grammaton cleric from equilibrium down too the all white suits/vestments. thee main diffrence is he Prefers straight razors to handguns.

 

https://youtu.be/-vSp1369jAE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Typically, many of these characters would simply be built with higher SPDs and would choose to lower their SPD for various reasons. One of the best reasons for which being reducing END expended per turn on constant defense powers,

Cateran (Champion Villains V3: Solo Villains 70-73) Is a perfect example of this. She is a fairly typical regenerating Brick... that just happens to have a SPD of 7!  Her description specifically mentions that she usually fights at a much lower SPD (SPD 4), and that she reserves her full SPD as a trick to surprise her enemies with, because Heroes often assume that Bricks like her are slow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a character who is capable of matter/energy manipulation/control.  A number of his abilities entail the adjustment of energy vectors (termed 'vectoring') within targeted areas ... to enhance or retard things like characteristics and movement. 

 

As an example, imagine if the pull of gravity was something working at angles that assisted you instead of it pulling against you at its usual oblique angle; you could run faster and potentially move with more ease and more quickly due to a lack of gravity-based resistance for your muscles/body to overcome.  (Basic Construct: AoE Aid to appropriate characteristics and/or powers.)

 

This same effect can also be reversed.  Imagine the pull of gravity working at angles that hinder you instead of it pulling against you at its usual oblique angle; now you're working harder to traverse a given distance ... potentially more slowly and with more effort.  (Basic Construct: AoE Drain to appropriate characteristics and/or powers.  Change Environment used where appropriate, of course.)

 

Notes:

  • Gravity is just one example of an energy form that can be manipulated; there is, of course, kinetic, potential, quantum, light, heat, and other such forms of energy that can be manipulated/vectored ... for a variety of effects, not just SPD enhancement/reduction.
  • The aforementioned uses aren't conditional SPD for the character, per se, but are, instead, conditional SPD (or loss of it) for those around him/her ... based on how he wants to influence a fight's outcome.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a character the white chaplain (the military chaplain for a super soldier program experienced a total morality inversion when exposed to an unstable mix of the serum now a crime boss with a fixation on religious iconography).

 

The white chaplain is a burst speedster able to move with superhuman speed in short bursts.

 

Basically he has 12 spd but his extra spd costs END every phase so he can deliver a terrifying hurricane of violence one turn but will spend the next pretty much immobile catching his breath.

 

He's absolutely terrifying to groups of agents and if he gets a chance can totally devastate a hero team.

 

Usually his minions will soften them up so he can then best them in a single explosive burst of violence.

 

He's partly based on Christian Bale's Grammaton cleric from equilibrium down too the all white suits/vestments. thee main diffrence is he Prefers straight razors to handguns.

 

https://youtu.be/-vSp1369jAE

White Chaplain, good name, and I like the story for the character as well. Nice!

 

I have nothing else useful to lend this thread...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree. Almost all of my builds up there only change speed at PS12. Changing SPD in the mid of a fight rarely is worth the algebraic disruption.

It's more of a dramatic and cinematic approach: a short change of pace, different background music, getting players in the mood for a different scene.
I am extreme anyhow: I build chars very pedantic, but in actual play I am rather relaxed and flexible, and my players are used to getting chances and problems (like additional attacks) just for the drama of it.

And I am using a speed chart with a comic book page's design and hero and villain markers on it. So we got it visualized pretty good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree about not changing speed.  I'm okay with multiforms with different speed and with characters with additional speed for only some activities, but variations on speed mid-combat makes things a headache for the GM.  Its like power pools, I don't like characters with power polls unless they bring a list of abilities with them to the table, so they aren't in combat building the perfect power constantly and making everything grind to a halt or ignoring what's going on while they furiously work with a calculator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Changing Speed is only for players who know the Speed chart like the back of their hand.  Same with power pools.  There are a handful of guys who can whip something up in no time flat, and I don't have a problem with that.  But it's one of the more complicated parts of Hero and if you don't know what you're doing, it will be obvious.

 

I try to stay away from limited Speed, because the builds tend to get really wonky and require a page and a half explanation on how it works.  Let's say I've got a guy who is Spd 5, +3 Spd only for Optic Blast or something.  How would that even work?  What phases do you go on?  Spd 5 and Spd 8 don't share many of the same segments.  What happens if you about to dodge at the beginning of segment 2, before your Dex score?  Do you give up segment 2 (when you would be able to Optic Blast), or do you give up segment 3 (because segment 2 is only for Optic Blast, it basically doesn't exist for purposes of dodging)?  Do you suffer a Speed change when you do it?  The answers to those questions will determine the value of the limitation.

 

I find it's a lot easier to just give people a higher Speed score and not worry about Batman running 40 mph because he's Spd 7.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it's a lot easier to just give people a higher Speed score and not worry about Batman running 40 mph because he's Spd 7.

 

When I am playing a "normal" person with an exceptional SPD (like a skilled martial artist), I usually lower their movement speed somewhat, and refrain from using velocity based maneuvers (which only care how fast you're going in a phase, not how fast you're actually going).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Let's say I've got a guy who is Spd 5, +3 Spd only for Optic Blast or something.  How would that even work?  What phases do you go on?

 

You gotta keep it easy.  3 speed with +3 only for combat means that cat is fast as lightning but doesn't run around or heal much more than an ordinary person.  speed 4 +4 with guns makes you amazing like a speedster with those pistols, but just a regular guy otherwise.  And keeping the phases broken down like that makes you able to see more clearly when you go and why.  Avoid odd combinations like 5+3, I agree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Mr. Taylor that it really has to be kept simple. For those folks who think changing SPD is a headache, all I can say is that it's not a headache when everyone at the table is experienced and it's only allowed PS12 (per 5er and earlier rules) -- which DOES keep it simple.  This (SPD change in PS12, per 5er) is, by the way, how we do it -- and it means that a Drain or Aid to SPD in our game doesn't take actual effect until the next PS12 ... and it also does not fade until a turn, min, 5 min, etc. after the initial effect took place ... making all of the bookwork a PS12 activity, which helps keep turns moving efficiently.

 

Interestingly the optional rule on changing speeds in 5ER is no longer optional in 6e; it's required.  i.e. 6e (at least per CC) seems to have no concept of SPD changes in PS12.  Instead, it allows SPD changes on any Phase but prohibits the character who is changing SPDs from acting (after the SPD change) until both the old and new SPDs have a common Phase (see CC pg 137) -- unless s/he Aborts.

 

I say this is interesting because I feel it was a bad design call that severely limits SPD Aid while being ripe for abuse via SPD Drain.  Regarding Drain, if a target's SPD is Drained right before s/he has a Phase (or takes an action at his/her Dex on a Phase), that target not only loses that Phase, but potentially cannot act for quite a while due to the requirement of a common Phase between the old and new SPDs to act (unless s/he Aborts).  This is most pronounced with low SPD characters where there are very few common Phases between SPDS (e.g. SPD3 and SPD4).

 

Example:

Under 6e, if I Drain a SPD4 target to SPD3 in Seg3 ... the target's Phases shift from 3,6,9,12 to 4,8,12.  With only Seg12 in common between the two SPDs, per RAW on CC pg 137, the target gets no action (unless s/he Aborts) until Seg12 since it is the only Segment with a Phase in common between the two SPDs.  i.e. A 10CP Drain to SPD early in Seg3 ate/eliminated 3 of the target's Phases (3,6,9) and actions thereon!  (Insane!)

 

The above example shows that a SPD Drain is per 6e RAW -exceptionally- powerful.  Frankly, sticking with the PS12 approach of 5er and earlier is not only simpler/saner (IMHO), it also mitigates this gross overpowering of Adjustment Powers applied to SPD.  The example, above, shows you precisely why my group DOES NOT use the optional rule for changing SPD in our 5ER game, even though 5er states (within the optional rule), "you should always use this system when SPD is altered with Adjustment Powers" (5er pg 357).  Wisdom and experience suggest (to us, at least) that 'no', you really should not 'always' use that system when SPD is altered with Adjustment Powers ... unless you want people who can Drain as little as 10CP of SPD to be disgustingly overpowered... while a 10CP Aid to SPD can actually hurt the 'beneficiary' of it (due to loss of actions until the two SPDs have a Phase in common) unless it is timed very carefully.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After seeing Drain SPD in action in one of my games... I have been inclined to prohibit its use ever since. Adjusting SPD just has too much awkwardness involved. There might be exceptional situations where I would allow it, but I consider Adjusting SPD a "flashing stop sign" power... maybe with some neon trim around the edges or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The JOKER seems to do this a lot, too. Especially when he is aborting to a never before used phase for an action that is no attack like his famous gun with the BANG flag. (Though I build this is as FX usually.)

I have tried to resist but I just have to ask: How do you know Joker is using a "never before used phase?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Inquiring palindromedaries want to know

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hoped someone would read so accurately and ask. :-)
What I meant is: Usually there is a typical rhythm between the Batman and the Joker, exchanging attacks and cool quips. But for that special kind of gag attack the Joker usually gets two or three consecutive panels or a very long camera take. Without the Batman being able to react.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Defensive Maneuver IV is a ten point skill that prevents a character from being taken from behind.  It's a cheap and easy way to simulate the fighting style of a well trained opponent.

 

And that's the key to building the villains to face your heroes.  Give them things like Danger Sense, Lightning Reflexes, Martial Disarm, etc. to counter the powers, focus, or skills that your characters have.  Variable SPD would cause other characters to need to have it in order to function, and that in turn would negate any advantage adding it to the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hoped someone would read so accurately and ask. :-)

What I meant is: Usually there is a typical rhythm between the Batman and the Joker, exchanging attacks and cool quips. But for that special kind of gag attack the Joker usually gets two or three consecutive panels or a very long camera take. Without the Batman being able to react.

 

Dialogue takes no time.  Quip away, and then fight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Defensive Maneuver IV is a ten point skill that prevents a character from being taken from behind.  It's a cheap and easy way to simulate the fighting style of a well trained opponent.

 

And that's the key to building the villains to face your heroes.  Give them things like Danger Sense, Lightning Reflexes, Martial Disarm, etc. to counter the powers, focus, or skills that your characters have.  Variable SPD would cause other characters to need to have it in order to function, and that in turn would negate any advantage adding it to the game.

I agree with your last sentence: EVERY new and effective build starts an arms race when players or GM start to react to it.

 

But apart from that: Almost all of your ideas are purely defensive. That makes a final boss last longer, but not dishing out interesting and challenging attacks to all team members. Even Lightning Reflexes just makes you attack a bit sooner - not more often.

 

I do not see many possibilities to give a Big Bad more actions than more SPD, AoE Attacks (which still means the same attack for different PCs, not individualistic attacks), Damage Shield Attacks (for an opponent who attacks you every time you attack him), and some Trigger Builds (which are notoriously complicated especially when several of them have to be active at once).

 

But how would you build DEATHSTROKE taking on the whole Justice League, hitting everyone of them with a fine-tuned attack before they can gang upon him? I have been doing this with superior SPD for the last 30 years. Because that's the way the character is defined in DC universe and how SPD is defined in HERO.

But I am open to new suggestions ... :yes:

 

deathstrokejla5.jpg?w=590&h=915

 

Here is the whole fight:

https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/08/26/deathstroke-fights-the-entire-jla/

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hoped someone would read so accurately and ask. :-)

What I meant is: Usually there is a typical rhythm between the Batman and the Joker, exchanging attacks and cool quips. But for that special kind of gag attack the Joker usually gets two or three consecutive panels or a very long camera take. Without the Batman being able to react.

I remain unconvinced. This is evidence that the artists want to emphasize or focus in on this action (probably trying to build "Oh no, what's he going to do?" tension that leads to the pop gun going "BANG") but hardly constitutes evidence that the character is "using a never before used phase."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an unpersuaded palindromedary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I'm going off topic here, but that fight was really really stupid.  Taking out Zatanna makes sense, and Ill give him the attack on Green Arrow as well.  The Flash running into a sword was stupid, and is this a Dex 10, Spd 2 Green Lantern?  The thing with The Atom was laughable.

 

It makes me think that characters have a low-powered, normal powered, and high-powered character sheet.  So your normal Deathstroke is probably like 600 or 700 points.  He's designed to take on a starting team like the Teen Titans (now they aren't 350 or 400 point characters, but we'll leave that aside for now).  And Deathstroke is a combat heavy character, lots of skill levels and things like that, high Speed, Find Weakness in 5th edition.  But then you've got high powered Deathstroke that shows up here.  He's like 900 or 1000 points, and he's Spd 9.  And you've got a bunch of low-powered Justice Leaguers, 350 point versions of the characters we all know.

 

Alternatively, Deathstroke had a held action, a couple of Triggered attacks, and a very friendly GM who assigned really low penalties for some of the things he did.

 

 

I've also been thinking that maybe villains can spend some points on several D6 of Luck, with some sort of condition on it.  They use the 5th edition variant where they roll their D6 of Luck, add the points together, and they can raise or lower people's rolls by that much.  So if Deathstroke has 5D6 Luck, only when fighting large groups, only usable every fourth time he shows up.  He rolls well, getting 20 points on the dice, and uses that to modify his opponents rolls every time they roll to hit him, so that they miss.  Eventually his Luck runs out (literally), and then he gets gang-tackled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...