Standard & Martial Combat Maneuvers with Telekinesis

[Surrealone]

I would like to hear how others would (or do) handle standard and martial combat maneuvers with Telekinesis.  I'm asking specifically because I'm toying with a new character build centered around the idea of a martial artist who must perform the martial maneuver for it to have effect (duh) ... but it can be done in HTH or Telekinetically at range.  Think TK with a Gestures requirement -- that gesture being the maneuver -- such that it's obvious the character kicked someone telekinetically because he must actually perform the kick.

 

Conceptually, I'm looking for true/blue TK here, where there's the possibility of the effect of the martial maneuver on a target without any physical contact between the martial artist and his target.  This rules out IPE Stretching that doesn't cross intervening space, since that still has physical contact involved.

 

Conceptually, a telekinetic martial artist should be doable.  However, with martial maneuvers being HTH and TK being ranged, I'm wrestling with the 'how' of the concept.

 

 

For example:

• Do/would you allow standard and martial strikes at range using TK strength?
  • If so:
    • Do/would you require fine manipulation on the TK as a precursor?
    • Do/would you consider TK a 'weapon' (despite it not being a physical object) and require 1pt be spent to allow a martial strike to be used with the 'weapon' much as you would allowing the martial strike to be used with, say, a sword?  (This, of course, is in addition to having a weapon familiarity for the 'weapon', yes?)
  • If not, why not -- and how would you go about doing standard and martial strikes at range with no physical contact between the combatants?
• Do/would you allow both raw STR and TK strength to be combined for damage computations on standard and martial strikes in HTH combat?  (A la someone using his/her TK to augment his/her raw STR .... while performing a HTH combat maneuver.)
  • If so:
    • Do/would you aggregate the physical STR and TK strength together before calculating the DC total ... or do you calculate the STR DC subtotal, calculate the TK strength DC subtotal, and then add both DC subtotals to get the DC total?  (This question is important for rounding reasons, as each approach can yield different results due to rounding.)
  • If not, why not -- since when in physical contact with the target, the character logically -should- be able to use both raw STR and TK strength against the target.

 

I did a quick search and found nothing terribly useful in the results, so I'd love to hear how others would tackle this.

[Hyper-Man]

I would require the Fine Manipulation.  My biggest concern is maneuvers that have a DCV modifier built in. I would try to avoid those where possible (like using Fast Strike instead of Martial Strike) and use the ranged martial maneuvers as well.  Combining base STR with TK STR is arguably similar to 2 characters  combining their STR to lift something.  This is where the type of setting would make a difference for me.  If for supers I would put the TK in a Framework that included an HA with a TK special effect. If non-supers I would go by the combined lifting STR rules.

 

HM

[steriaca]

I would require Fine Manipulation also, but also require Use Art With Telekinesis for the martial arts also.

 

You can use your martial arts without use art and with a Fine Manipulation TK, but your going to have some penalties ("off hand" for starters, amoung others). You don't need Use Art for your standard manuvers (stuff your character can do normally without spending points). I wouldn't require Fine Manipulation for a grab, but if your going to go all Darth and do a "force choak hold", then you need a Fine Manipulation for the TK. And just say "no" to a TK Move By and Move Through.

[steriaca]

I would not require weapon familiarity with TK in a Champions campaign, as the rule of "you have familiarity with what you bought with points for free" applies.

[Sean Waters]

Can someone explain TKMA to me?

 

I did not wish to derail another thread with this; in answer to your unspoken question, never, but there is a first time for everything.  OK, this isn't it then...

 

So I build a Martial Arts Package with Martial Throw, Martial Grab and Martial Strike, say 6 extra DC.

 

That comes to 34 points.  I do not need Fine Manipulation because, well, I don't, according to the rules, to strike or grab.  You might argue that I do for the throw as that requires precision, in which case  I'll swap out for legweep, or splurge an extra 2 points on Offensive strike.

 

Then I get me some of that TK, say 10 STR for 15 points.

 

Total cost is 49 points.  You might make me take TK as a weapon element, so we are at 50 points.

 

I can do 10d6 damage at range for 1 END and all the martial arts bonuses.  I don't have the range of a Blast but how many combats take place with the participants more than 150m apart?  Hmm?

 

So that is, unless I'm going wrong somewhere, and I probably am, better than a 10d6 Blast, even if I only ever use the Martial Strike.  Or, you know, 12d6 if you were being difficult about me taking Martial Throw for just 2 more points.

 

Moreover my Grab now comes in at 50 STR, which would cost me 75 points and 7 END per use normally (OK, I can not actually lift as much as TK would give me, but in combat, so what, most of the time?)

 

I could get two more levels of Extra DC in and still come in under 60 points...

 

So, I could also, for example, make 5 points of my TK STR fully invisible (for 15 points), and I can now do 9d6 on a target and neither they nor anyone else knows who hit them. I might as well buy that as a Naked Advantage because, well, why not?

 

Is there a 'no more than doubling base STR' rule here? Am I supposed to apportion the extra damage as if it was bought with a +1/2 range thing, so I only get 4 extra DC?

 

I know TKMA is optional, but this is why I'm unlikely to exercise the option.  It just seems like a whole lotta something for nothing.

 

OK, this is a reasonably extreme example, but it does scale: even bits of TKMA are very efficient.  This is partially because MA is very efficient, but mainly because you don't have to apply a notional +1/2 to the cost for making your attacks ranged.

 

I'm not sure what the answer is.  I LIKE the idea of TKMA, it just seems a bit too good at the moment.  

[Sean Waters]

I would require the Fine Manipulation.  My biggest concern is maneuvers that have a DCV modifier built in. I would try to avoid those where possible (like using Fast Strike instead of Martial Strike) and use the ranged martial maneuvers as well.  Combining base STR with TK STR is arguably similar to 2 characters  combining their STR to lift something.  This is where the type of setting would make a difference for me.  If for supers I would put the TK in a Framework that included an HA with a TK special effect. If non-supers I would go by the combined lifting STR rules.

 

HM

 

I know what you mean, but I'm not sure: DCV mods on MA apply to all targets, not just the one you are (say) boxing.  Being able to block a punch would be of little use against a bullet: I'm not sure this is any different as you could use your TK to partially shield yourself and deflect incoming attacks, or just duck when you throw a MarTKial Punch.

 

Also you apparently only need fine manipulation for stuff that requires finesse, the example given in the rules being Nerve Strike.  You can 'punch and grab' with TK anyway.

[Netzilla]

When I've allowed this in the past, I've required Fine Manipulation (because Martial maneuvers all require more precision and finesse than the basic maneuvers) and TK as a Weapon Element.  Adding in the Fine Manipulation, the overall package of TK + Martial Arts given by SW comes out to 60 points.

 

One thing about that example is that it's getting a lot of mileage out of those +6 DCs.  If those were dropped and 40 Strength TK is bought instead, the cost comes out different:

TK 40 STR w/ Fine Manipulation (70 AP; 70 RC)

Generic Martial Art
* Martial Grab: -1 OCV; -1 DCV; 50 STR (3 AP; 3 RC)
* Martial Strike: +0 OCV; +2 DCV; 10d6 (4 AP; 4 RC)
* Martial Throw: +0 OCV; +1 DCV; 8d6 +v/10 Target Falls (3 AP; 3 RC)
* Weapon Element: TK (1 AP; 1 RC)

Total = 81 AP; 81 RP

I'm not overly fond of buying high amounts of Martial Arts DCs with minimal STR on a regular martial artist build due to how efficient it is.  So, I'm even less likely to allow it on a TK MA build.
 

[Hyper-Man]

Yeah, my old 5e Jedi TK + MA builds would usually cap the number of Martial DC's to no more than the STR value of the TK (20 STR means no more than +4 DC's on top of maneuvers).

 

HM

[steriaca]

One way this does not get thugly is to introduce and enforce the same rule on Killing Attack with TK and Martial Arts, from Hero 4th edition. Simply put, you can't do more than twice DC damage.

[whitekeys]

Not particularly experience with this sort of thing, but this seems like something I would disallow as a GM. I can't seem to wrap my head around the justification for obtaining the bonuses from a Martial Arts Maneuver if its being done at Range with Telekinetic Strength. I picture the Telekinesis being invisible, providing no opportunity for a foe to properly defend itself... that's already enough of a bonus, I think. Maybe when I consult the books, I'll have a better answer, but my PDF program is not responding.

 

I would allow STR to be combined. I would total them separately, but I think it depends on how you see that working... if the TK is pushing the arm, or if they're two separate attacks hitting the same point.

[Sean Waters]

TK is not inherently invisible.  The SFX could be anything but they are visible unless you pay more (hence the 5 points of invisible TK example above): if I was going to raise an objection it would be that it would be really difficult to sense where you are grasping and striking someone at a distance with any precision as TK does not have a sense associated with it: you can not feel what you touch with TK.

 

This is, of course, a set of game rules and so inherently somewhat arbitrary.  OTOH, it is going to play better if it makes some intuitive sense.

 

To an extent there is no point in building this as any sensible GM would have the reaction others have and say 'No', but on these boards we like to test things to extremes because it does show up situations where the synergy is perhaps excessively useful.

[Netzilla]

Not particularly experience with this sort of thing, but this seems like something I would disallow as a GM. I can't seem to wrap my head around the justification for obtaining the bonuses from a Martial Arts Maneuver if its being done at Range with Telekinetic Strength. I picture the Telekinesis being invisible, providing no opportunity for a foe to properly defend itself... that's already enough of a bonus, I think. Maybe when I consult the books, I'll have a better answer, but my PDF program is not responding.

 

I would allow STR to be combined. I would total them separately, but I think it depends on how you see that working... if the TK is pushing the arm, or if they're two separate attacks hitting the same point.

 

As SW pointed out, TK is not invisible by default.  You have to pay for an Advantage to get that.

 

As for combining raw STR and TK, that's not normally allowed for the base maneuvers, so it shouldn't be allowed for TK Martial Arts either.  At best, you can use STR and TK to make a Multi Attack with the requisite penalties but even that's questionable as Multi Attack has rules about not combining two instances of the same power or two maneuvers with the same "base".

[Netzilla]

TK is not inherently invisible.  The SFX could be anything but they are visible unless you pay more (hence the 5 points of invisible TK example above): if I was going to raise an objection it would be that it would be really difficult to sense where you are grasping and striking someone at a distance with any precision as TK does not have a sense associated with it: you can not feel what you touch with TK.

 

This is, of course, a set of game rules and so inherently somewhat arbitrary.  OTOH, it is going to play better if it makes some intuitive sense.

 

Fine Manipulation already accounts for that, IMO.  After all, proper typing, lockpicking and many other things Fine Manipulation allows one to do are done by feel as well.

 

 

 

To an extent there is no point in building this as any sensible GM would have the reaction others have and say 'No', but on these boards we like to test things to extremes because it does show up situations where the synergy is perhaps excessively useful.

 

 

 

I guess I'm not a sensible GM then.  Careful with blanket statements like this.   

[Sean Waters]

As SW pointed out, TK is not invisible by default.  You have to pay for an Advantage to get that.

 

As for combining raw STR and TK, that's not normally allowed for the base maneuvers, so it shouldn't be allowed for TK Martial Arts either.  At best, you can use STR and TK to make a Multi Attack with the requisite penalties but even that's questionable as Multi Attack has rules about not combining two instances of the same power or two maneuvers with the same "base".

 

What I have done in the past is a multipower with TK and STR to an equal amount (yes, you can).  This means that you can manipulate stuff at a distance but your 'touch TK' is stronger.

[Sean Waters]

Fine Manipulation already accounts for that, IMO.  After all, proper typing, lockpicking and many other things Fine Manipulation allows one to do are done by feel as well.

 

 

 

 

I guess I'm not a sensible GM then.  Careful with blanket statements like this.   

 

Me?  Be careful?

 

I don't really get 'fine manipulation': it is 10 points for arbitraryness' sake.  You can pick something up with your fine manipulation TK and have no idea what it feels like (hot/cold/strangely sticky/whatever) that other senses can not give you anyway.  I would suggest we remove 'fine manipulation' and replace it with a requirement to buy a linked sense of touch (or whatever) if you want to do delicate manipulations with your TK STR.

 

Two advantages to this:

 

1. It makes a lot more sense

2. Same as number 1.  I know, but it is a biggie.

 

OK, three advantages, those two and:

 

3. You are not spending 10 points more on TK with the associated END (for feedback?  Really?) and, in a game with point caps, reduction in overall combat utility.

[Netzilla]

What I have done in the past is a multipower with TK and STR to an equal amount (yes, you can).  This means that you can manipulate stuff at a distance but your 'touch TK' is stronger.

 

I assume you mean something like:

45  Telekinesis:  Multipower, 45-point reserve
9v  At Range:  Telekinesis (30 STR) (45 Active Points)
6v  Boost STR:  +30 STR (30 Active Points)

That's a perfectly valid way to simulate being able to boost your Strength with your TK.

[Netzilla]

Me?  Be careful?

 

I don't really get 'fine manipulation': it is 10 points for arbitraryness' sake.  You can pick something up with your fine manipulation TK and have no idea what it feels like (hot/cold/strangely sticky/whatever) that other senses can not give you anyway.  I would suggest we remove 'fine manipulation' and replace it with a requirement to buy a linked sense of touch (or whatever) if you want to do delicate manipulations with your TK STR.

 

Two advantages to this:

 

1. It makes a lot more sense

2. Same as number 1.  I know, but it is a biggie.

 

OK, three advantages, those two and:

 

3. You are not spending 10 points more on TK with the associated END (for feedback?  Really?) and, in a game with point caps, reduction in overall combat utility.

 

Eh, if you require some to buy a sense rather than pick Fine Manipulation, then the sense would be something like:

 

Range with Touch Group (10 Active Points); Linked (Telekinesis; -1/2) (7 RC)

 

It's a bit cheaper than Fine Manipulation, though does have the advantage of not costing any extra END.  Still, I'm not sure what advantage such a change really makes.  Fine Manipulation is well-enough described in the book as is and contained within the TK description.  Since it only applies to TK, that's a perfectly sensible place to find it. 

 

Also, I never much worry about AP caps as I find draconian enforcement of such is too often indicative of other problems with the GM or players.  There are too many utility powers with a high Active Cost that get nixed by such inflexibility even though they're not inherently unbalancing or problematic.  I view it in a similar fashion to Damage Classes.  How high your DC can get is dependent on other factors (Speed, OCV, etc).  Similarly, a high AP power is only problematic depending on the specifics of the build and how it interacts with your character's other abilities.

[Sean Waters]

Eh, if you require some to buy a sense rather than pick Fine Manipulation, then the sense would be something like:

 

Range with Touch Group (10 Active Points); Linked (Telekinesis; -1/2) (7 RC)

 

It's a bit cheaper than Fine Manipulation, though does have the advantage of not costing any extra END.  Still, I'm not sure what advantage such a change really makes.  Fine Manipulation is well-enough described in the book as is and contained within the TK description.  Since it only applies to TK, that's a perfectly sensible place to find it. 

 

Also, I never much worry about AP caps as I find draconian enforcement of such is too often indicative of other problems with the GM or players.  There are too many utility powers with a high Active Cost that get nixed by such inflexibility even though they're not inherently unbalancing or problematic.  I view it in a similar fashion to Damage Classes.  How high your DC can get is dependent on other factors (Speed, OCV, etc).  Similarly, a high AP power is only problematic depending on the specifics of the build and how it interacts with your character's other abilities.

 

 

Thing is, if you are playing in a game where there are AP caps: say 60 points in a power, then Fine Manipulation cuts your max TK spend to 50 points, or more if you want advantages on the power.  Anyway, why should finesse cost extra END?  It practically forces you to build a framework, and why should it?

 

I agree that you can safely ignore AP caps in a lot of cases but they do exist as a game element and, also, the END and extra cost for advantages on TK.  TK is already of relatively marginal use (it is certainly not 50% better than an equivalent amount of strength or 2/3 of the equivalent strength).  FM just nixes it further.

 

Anyway, it just makes more intuitive sense to gain fine manipulation by being able to feel what your telekinetic hand can feels.  Fine manipulation is an artifact and it does not make a great deal of sense other than as the way it has always been done, which is no good reason at all.

[Sean Waters]

Also, 5 points of invisible TK with a linked sense of touch and you'd just ride the subway all day.

[Netzilla]

Thing is, if you are playing in a game where there are AP caps: say 60 points in a power, then Fine Manipulation cuts your max TK spend to 50 points, or more if you want advantages on the power.  Anyway, why should finesse cost extra END?  It practically forces you to build a framework, and why should it?

 

I agree that you can safely ignore AP caps in a lot of cases but they do exist as a game element and, also, the END and extra cost for advantages on TK.  TK is already of relatively marginal use (it is certainly not 50% better than an equivalent amount of strength or 2/3 of the equivalent strength).  FM just nixes it further.

 

Anyway, it just makes more intuitive sense to gain fine manipulation by being able to feel what your telekinetic hand can feels.  Fine manipulation is an artifact and it does not make a great deal of sense other than as the way it has always been done, which is no good reason at all.

 

Well, we're pretty much into varying mileage territory for most of this.  The only truly new thing I could add relates to the base cost of TK; it's simply Strength with the Ranged (+1/2) Advantage, plus it gets a semi-indirect advantage for free.  With that in mind, the cost seems about right to me.

 

Oh, one other important facet of Fine Manipulation I forgot about, it basically has a built-in Activation Roll limitation (plus a range mod), though how much this really matters varies as the higher the AP of the power, the easier the roll (that's something I could definitely see house ruling into some kind of CHAR roll as it runs contradictory to how Activation/Skill rolls usually work).

[Sean Waters]

Well, we're pretty much into varying mileage territory for most of this.  The only truly new thing I could add relates to the base cost of TK; it's simply Strength with the Ranged (+1/2) Advantage, plus it gets a semi-indirect advantage for free.  With that in mind, the cost seems about right to me.

 

Oh, one other important facet of Fine Manipulation I forgot about, it basically has a built-in Activation Roll limitation (plus a range mod), though how much this really matters varies as the higher the AP of the power, the easier the roll (that's something I could definitely see house ruling into some kind of CHAR roll as it runs contradictory to how Activation/Skill rolls usually work).

 

 

Mind you, Stretching does much the same and does not cap your Strength, and does not need FN.  OK, your crazy stretchy arm could be grabbed or punched, and the range is not as good, but...

 

My thing is that Hero should be as intuitive as it can be, and as balanced as it can be.  I understand what FN does, and, sort of, why, but it seems expensive (especially if you compare it to the cost of making it touch sensitive), it makes advantages on the rest of the power more expensive and it does not really make that much sense to me: can you really type on a keyboard you can barely see?

[Netzilla]

[snip as we're definitely into YMMV territory...]

 

can you really type on a keyboard you can barely see?

 

I can type nearly 60 wpm blindfolded with an over 90% accuracy (though it's been a while since I was tested), and that's not impressive.  Truly skilled people can do so at more than double that rate with closer to 100% accuracy. I've taken typing classes and work as a software developer so I spend 8+ hours per day at a keyboard.  The 'F' and 'J' keys have raised bumps or ridges on them specifically so that you can easily locate your hand position without needing to look (though they're not really needed as 'F' is always the 3rd row up and the 5th character in and 'J' is always two more keys to the right on a standard keyboard).  It's really not an uncommon skill.

 

Heck, consider the things stage magicians can do and discern purely by touch.

[Sean Waters]

I can type nearly 60 wpm blindfolded with an over 90% accuracy (though it's been a while since I was tested), and that's not impressive.  Truly skilled people can do so at more than double that rate with closer to 100% accuracy. I've taken typing classes and work as a software developer so I spend 8+ hours per day at a keyboard.  The 'F' and 'J' keys have raised bumps or ridges on them specifically so that you can easily locate your hand position without needing to look (though they're not really needed as 'F' is always the 3rd row up and the 5th character in and 'J' is always two more keys to the right on a standard keyboard).  It's really not an uncommon skill.

 

Heck, consider the things stage magicians can do and discern purely by touch.

 

By touch, yes.  That's the point.  FM does not give you that: it just allows you to push one key not all of them.  10 points?  Really?

[Surrealone]

Mind you, Stretching does much the same and does not cap your Strength, and does not need FN.  OK, your crazy stretchy arm could be grabbed or punched, and the range is not as good, but...

 

As a reminder, in my very first post I stated:

"Conceptually, I'm looking for true/blue TK here, where there's the possibility of the effect of the martial maneuver on a target without any physical contact between the martial artist and his target.  This rules out IPE Stretching that doesn't cross intervening space, since that still has physical contact involved."

[Netzilla]

By touch, yes.  That's the point.  FM does not give you that: it just allows you to push one key not all of them.  10 points?  Really?

 

Since FM also allows you to pick locks, then some degree of touch sensitivity is implied.  Otherwise, how could you feel the tumblers?