Standard & Martial Combat Maneuvers with Telekinesis

[Sean Waters]

Since FM also allows you to pick locks, then some degree of touch sensitivity is implied.  Otherwise, how could you feel the tumblers?

 

/ranton

You don't need any touch sensitivity to pick locks.  You can get a little gun-thing that rakes the pins for you.

 

If FM allows some sort of touch sensitivity then it should say so: Hero is certainly not shy when it comes to using words.  Actually it does: "Characters who want sensory feedback with their telekinesis...should link the appropriate form of Clairsentience".  Um.  Clairsentience?  OK...

 

TK is the only power that has this 'fine manipulation' thing.  It imposes an 'inherently clumsy' limitation for no good reason I can see and then gives you a buy back.  10 points is a lot: it is about 7 more points of TK strength which is far more useful in combat than being able to type.  Then you get this weird explanation of FM as acting like a 'large, infinitely thin paddle', but you do not require it for everyday tasks - like opening a jar.  I've just tried to open a jar with a flat wooden spoon, and I can't.  it is unnecessary complication for the sake of more damn words on the page and it STILL doesn't give you any sensory feedback.  Actually, I can't grab anything with the spoon either.  Lift, yes, not grab.  

 

While I am ranting, TK is a real hash explanation anyway: if TK did NOT have action/reaction then you COULD lift yourself.  The reason I can't lift myself just by grabbing myself and pulling up in reality is because there is action/reaction.

 

One more thing I really don't like about the way the rules are written - and this is perfectly illustrated in the TK description on page 295 is this bizarre "you can not use TK for any manoeuvre other than punch or grab" followed by "However, at the GM's option..."

 

At the GM's option ANYTHING, what we need is one set of coherent rules, with all the optional stuff in a sidebar, or, better, a supplement.

 

GRR!

 

Then there is this strange version of 'indirect'.  What is described is actually 'fully indirect', despite what it says about 'always originating from the character': it can be used through barriers and obstacles (it does not need to reach round, like a big clumsy hand), so, in effect, you can put the origin point anywhere and can affect the target from any direction on each use: that is full indirect.  That, in fact, is the main reason to take TK as a power: because you have bought Barrier too and you want the synergy, and that feels like a design fault too.

 

Honestly, it is like The Twilight Zone in there.

 

/rantoff

 

OK, I have some issues with TK in Hero

[Netzilla]

/ranton

You don't need any touch sensitivity to pick locks.  You can get a little gun-thing that rakes the pins for you.

 

Even with a lockpick gun you need a decent sense of touch to know when the pins are clear and it's safe to turn.

 

If FM allows some sort of touch sensitivity then it should say so: Hero is certainly not shy when it comes to using words.  Actually it does: "Characters who want sensory feedback with their telekinesis...should link the appropriate form of Clairsentience".  Um.  Clairsentience?  OK...

 

To get any detailed feedback sure. I can see the argument for claisentience, even. However, there must be some small pressure feedback even with base TK or you wouldn't know how hard to squeeze something. You don't get full touch as you won't sense temperature or texture.

 

[snip as we're getting into Hero System philosophy that's way off topic for this thread.]

 

At the end of the day, the main question the GM has to ask regarding TK MA (and any build, really) is, "will this break my game?". For me, TK MA hasn't (with the caveat about MA DCs being too efficient in one of the above builds).

[Sean Waters]

Even with a lockpick gun you need a decent sense of touch to know when the pins are clear and it's safe to turn.

 

 

 

You really don't, you know.  I have lockpicks and all you need to do it put pressure on the wrench and rake the pins.  Takes no time, it is barely a skill - I could do it after watching one YouTube video and making my own set of picks (which took less than 5 minutes).  There are some clever locks this is not possible with, but then you probably couldn't pick them with TK anyway.  I believe - I might be wrong - you are more likely to use hearing than touch anyway when picking these.  How many senses do you get with this puppy?

[Sean Waters]

To get any detailed feedback sure. I can see the argument for claisentience, even. However, there must be some small pressure feedback even with base TK or you wouldn't know how hard to squeeze something. You don't get full touch as you won't sense temperature or texture.

 

[snip as we're getting into Hero System philosophy that's way off topic for this thread.]

 

At the end of the day, the main question the GM has to ask regarding TK MA (and any build, really) is, "will this break my game?". For me, TK MA hasn't (with the caveat about MA DCs being too efficient in one of the above builds).

 

You are not thinking about this the right way: that is not how Hero works.  Just because it is logical that X does not mean that Y follows just because it would be logical to do so.

 

There is absolutely nothing that says you get sense feedback and some pretty good indication (the mention of linking senses) that you do not.

 

Also the rest of what I said.

[Sean Waters]

To drag this kicking and screaming back to the OP, I think allowing combat manoeuvres that add damage is wrong in principle as it does not take into account the ranged advantage.

 

Having said that you can not stop people getting round that by buying skill levels and using them to add damage, which is RAW, but at least costs 6 points for+ 1 DC.

 

Also raw (and RAW) TK is often not that much use on its own in combat as it does not generate enough damage to compete, so it probably needs something.

[Ninja-Bear]

I have built a character named.Psykick with TK and MA. I bought fine manipulation because the books suggests this. And so far, no problems.

Fwiw if someone defines a martial grab as a bear hug then yeah I don't see a TK needing FM however if its defined as a.joint lock, then yes it does. Ever put someone in a thumb lock?

[Ninja-Bear]

To drag this kicking and screaming back to the OP, I think allowing combat manoeuvres that add damage is wrong in principle as it does not take into account the ranged advantage.

 

Sorry, not seeing the priciple.

[dmjalund]

I think he means that +DC of ranged damage should cost more than +DC of HTH damage

[Storyarama]

For simplicity sake, I would make Telekinetic Martial Arts as a PB with Gestures (martial maneuver) instead of using TK. But hey, that's the nice thing about Hero, you can do it which way you feel more comfortable with.

[bigbywolfe]

For simplicity sake, I would make Telekinetic Martial Arts as a PB with Gestures (martial maneuver) instead of using TK. But hey, that's the nice thing about Hero, you can do it which way you feel more comfortable with.

What is a "PB"? If you aren't using TK, what power are you suggesting instead that can Grab or Throw?

[steriaca]

What is a "PB"? If you aren't using TK, what power are you suggesting instead that can Grab or Throw?

Streching?

 

Acutely I think it stands for Blast (vs PD, also called Physical Blast).

[steriaca]

One thing people forget, you gain range penalties to your TKMA, along with "off hand" and other penalties. That alone might discourage such a thing as TKMA.

[Surrealone]

Unfortunately, that leaves you with buying STR with the [+1/4] Ranged advantage, and then an Only Usable with Standard and Martial Maneuvers limitation, which I'd estimate to be a [-1] limitation since you can't type, do nonviolent fine manipulation, lift, etc. with the STR if it has that limitation.

 

This seems to directly violate the RAW remark that 'Characters normally should not buy their STR with the Power Advantage Ranged; they should buy TK instead."  However, Ranged STR seems to be the only 'clean' way to do actual TKMA...

 

Thoughts?

[steriaca]

Unfortunately, that leaves you with buying STR with the [+1/4] Ranged advantage, and then an Only Usable with Standard and Martial Maneuvers limitation, which I'd estimate to be a [-1] limitation since you can't type, do nonviolent fine manipulation, lift, etc. with the STR if it has that limitation.

 

This seems to directly violate the RAW remark that 'Characters normally should not buy their STR with the Power Advantage Ranged; they should buy TK instead." However, Ranged STR seems to be the only 'clean' way to do actual TKMA...

 

Thoughts?

That rule is there for a reason. Better to buy TK and MA, regardless of range penalties. Range MA gets range penalties, and I don't hear people bitching about that.

[Ninja-Bear]

I easily accept the range penalty. I just by more CSLs.

[Tech]

I question the validity of using Martial Arts with TK: I am only speaking in regards to the DCV bonus. I can see ranged Martial Arts, such as a TK attack. However, I have some problem seeing why you get a +2 DCV bonus, when you just attacked someone 30 feet away, when in the same phase someone attacks you in HTH, just because the maneuver says you do. Your focus is on the ranged opponent, yet you get a +2 DCV on the HTH opponent?

 

If someone wanted to go the TK Martial Arts way, using Martial Arts, I guess I'd let them. I haven't run into it yet in the campaign I co-GM.  It feels more like it should be a Multipower with various fixed slots, defined as ranged TK Martial Arts, with one or two levels with the Multipower.

[steriaca]

I easily accept the range penalty. I just by more CSLs.

Don't forget, TK uses standard OCV, not OMCV unless you buy Alternate Combat Value. This is because people think TK as a mental power instead of a physical power.

[steriaca]

I just created a TK based MA. See if you like it.

 

Generic TK Martial Arts

Use Art With Telekinesis (free)

Name Phase Cost OCV DCV Damage/Effect

TK Choak
      1/2. 4.   -2. +0.  Grab One Limb, 2d6 NND(2)

TK Disarm
      1/2. 4.   -1. +1.  Disarm, +10 TK STR to Disarm roll

TK Full Grab
      1+   5.   +0. +0.  TK STR Grab, Grab 5 Limbs

TK Grab
      1/2. 3.   -1. -1.  TK STR Grab, Grab Two Limbs, +10 TK STR to Grab

TK Nerve Strike
      1/2. 4.   +0. +0.   2d6 NND (1)

TK Push Strike
      1/2. 3.   +2. -1.   TK STR +1d6, Target Falls

TK Root
      1/2. 4.   +0. +0.   TK STR +15 to resist Shove, Block, Abort

TK Shove
      1/2. 4.   +0. +0.   +15 TK STR to Shove

TK Strike
      1/2. 3.   +1. +0.    TK STR+2d6, Strike

TK Takeaway
      1/2. 5.   +0. +0.    TK Grab Weapon, +10 TK STR to take weapon away

Special Notes: You need Find Manipulation for TK Choak and TK Nerve Strike, but not for each other maneuvers.

[dmjalund]

I would change all the maneuvers to have 0 DCV bonus/penalty like this

Generic TK Martial Arts

Use Art With Telekinesis (free)

Name Phase Cost OCV DCV Damage/Effect

TK Choke
1/2. 4. -2. +0. Grab One Limb, 2d6 NND(2)

TK Disarm
1/2. 5. -1. +0. Disarm, +10 TK STR to Disarm roll

TK Full Grab
1+ 5. +0. +0. TK STR Grab, Grab 5 Limbs

TK Grab
1/2. 4. -1. +0. TK STR Grab, Grab Two Limbs, +10 TK STR to Grab

TK Nerve Strike
1/2. 4. +0. +0. 2d6 NND (1)

TK Push Strike
1/2. 4. +2. +0. TK STR +1d6, Target Falls

TK Root
1/2. 4. +0. +0. TK STR +15 to resist Shove, Block, Abort

TK Shove
1/2. 4. +0. +0. +15 TK STR to Shove

TK Strike
1/2. 3. +1. +0. TK STR+2d6, Strike

TK Takeaway
1/2. 5. +0. +0. TK Grab Weapon, +10 TK STR to take weapon away

[Netzilla]

I question the validity of using Martial Arts with TK: I am only speaking in regards to the DCV bonus. I can see ranged Martial Arts, such as a TK attack. However, I have some problem seeing why you get a +2 DCV bonus, when you just attacked someone 30 feet away, when in the same phase someone attacks you in HTH, just because the maneuver says you do. Your focus is on the ranged opponent, yet you get a +2 DCV on the HTH opponent?

 

If someone wanted to go the TK Martial Arts way, using Martial Arts, I guess I'd let them. I haven't run into it yet in the campaign I co-GM.  It feels more like it should be a Multipower with various fixed slots, defined as ranged TK Martial Arts, with one or two levels with the Multipower.

 

Eh, it's the same if the target stands just 3 feet away and you're using your fist/foot rather than TK.  You still get that DCV bonus against anyone else attacking you regardless of whether or not you're focused on them.

[steriaca]

 

I would change all the maneuvers to have 0 DCV bonus/penalty like this

Wouldn't it make most manuvers more expensive, via Hero System Martial Arts?

[Amorkca]

Just some clarification here...

 

If MA gives you +10 STR for disarm (and any of the others)  Shouldn't MA bought through Telekinesis only give you +7 STR as its a 3 points for 2 STR?

[steriaca]

Just some clarification here...

 

If MA gives you +10 STR for disarm (and any of the others) Shouldn't MA bought through Telekinesis only give you +7 STR as its a 3 points for 2 STR?

Mabey. Sounds like a question for Mr. Long to ponder out.

[Surrealone]

The above really stabs at the heart of the problem with which I wrestle when it comes to TKMA.  If TK should be purchased instead of STR w/ the Ranged advantage, then one should reasonably be able to use TK with MA just as if one uses STR with MA.  However, this can't be seamlessly done because as has been noted in other threads, the Hero MA system seems to be sort of kludged/thrown into the mix in ad-hoc fashion rather than in a fashion that allows it to seamlessly work with things like TK just as readily as it does STR.

 

A fix for this might be to adjust TK ... as that's far simpler than overhauling MA.  But, still, neither approach gets me where I want to be right now (or any time soon).  And, sadly, I don't feel like I've seen any truly great options in this thread.  Some are certainly better than others, but none of them has generated that 'aha!' moment that suggests a clear/best choice to approach.

 

Not for lack of people here putting forth good ideas and thoughts while trying to address the issue, of course...

 

*sigh*

[steriaca]

Why exactly do you want to have no positive or negative DCV? Since we don't have someone from DOJ stating "this is how you adapt standard Martial Arts rules for Telekinesis", all we have to go on is simply using normal Martial Arts rules, applied to Telekinesis and gaining range penalties, or using Range Martial Arts and forget about grabing people and things.