Creating a magic system with Multipowers?

[Lucius]

• • The other potential problem (also #4 above) is that a VPP could potentially have a greater number of spells in the pool available to use simultaneously because there is no constraint on their combined AP, only on the total Real Cost of the spells in the pool. So if the pool is 50 and the control cost is 40, the spells could be limited in such a way as each spell could have 40 AP, but a low Real Cost, and therefore make many stronger spells (for a beginner) available to use simultaneously (see my previous post on this). If each spell has, say, a total of -3 limitations, the wizard could have 5 spells of 40 AP, each with a Real Cost of 10 each (filling the 50 point pool), and all 5 could potentially be active at once. The potential total AP of the spells being used simultaneously then could be 200 AP, unlike the Multipower, which is limited at 50 AP total in the analogous example above.
  • ***
     
     
    Does this clarify what I was trying to say, Lucius?
     
    If you've made it this far, congratulations! All comments are welcome!

 

Okay, I think I see now what you're driving at!

 

It's one thing to say "sure you can have a 60 Active Point spell" and another to say "Whoa, you got 5 spells of 60 Active Points going at once!"

 

Sorry for being a little obtuse.

 

 

I suggest requiring spellcasters to use a Mana Pool i.e. an END Reserve dedicated to spells, and make sure all spells cost mana (END) to cast.

 

 

As for the valid observation some have made that a Variable Power Pool is one of the most complex constructs in a complex system and perhaps not for beginning players, if you put a Limitation on them "Only spells from a pre-written and approved list" and "Only spells the character has acquired for their spell book" that will tend to simplify things. I think it could be manageable.

 

You might still allow some spells to have "Costs END only to Activate" for something you might want a spellcaster to be able to maintain long term, like a light spell.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

An incantation to summon a palindromedary: SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS

[Brian Stanfield]

"Let's say the pool is larger (the number isn't important) and that a VPP could allow a character to have a number of spells that, say, give him a shield, a movement ability, an attack, invisibility, etc., all active at once if they are constant."

 

Well, the short answer is "Yes, and CAN have all those powers active at once."  But to have all those powers active at the same time they would each have to be so small that they are, in practice, utterly ineffective.

 

Going back to the earlier example of the man-at-arms in a dust-up with Mr. Mega Mage - Like I said before, the man-at-arms has his sword, his STR, his Combat Skill Levels, and his Advantages.  Roll all those together and the well constructed melee specialist should be swinging 3d6 HtH RKA.  That's 45 active points.  So using that as a guide, I allow my mage PCs a pool of 45 active points as well for their magic powers.  

 

If we assume that's a 45 pip VPP, and for sake of simplicity we do Mystic Blast (an attack power), Wings of Mana (a movement power), and Sorcerer's Shield (a defense).  Well, it's likely that your defense spell will offer the same, or less, rPD & rED than the man-at-arms's chain mail hauberk, the Flight you buy will be less than the man-at-arms's base Running plus whatever extra he buys, and your Mystic Blast won't penetrate that chain mail hauberk that the man-at-arms is wearing.

 

"No problem," says the mage.  "I'll reshuffle my VPP on the fly into a the Magical Mega Ka-Boom and drop this chump."  Well, if you bought your VPP with Requires a Skill Roll to Change then that comes with a penalty of -1 for every 10 active points.  That's -4 for a 45 point power.  With an INT of 15 and 3 points in the Magic skill, Mr. Mega Mage would have to roll an 8 or less on 3d6 to pull that particular rabbit out of his, um, hat.  

 

That thing you fear just isn't quite the boogyman you make it out to be.  And the level of complication that VPPs add to an already complicated game...  IIRC you said you were trying to make things easy for new players.  I don't feel like this is it.

 

In all honesty, it sounds like you're describing a Multipower. Maybe you're conflating the Pool and the Control Cost? Are you assuming they're both at 45 points? I can't tell from your example. If this is in fact the case, then you can create a VPP that looks like this (let's assume there are -3 limitations on each spell):

• 3d6 HKA (45 AP): Real Cost 11
• 45 m flight (45 AP): Real Cost 11
• 9d6 blast (45 AP): Real Cost 11
• 15 PD/15 ED resistant protection (45 AP): Real Cost 11

There's even one point left in the pool for whatever. Regardless, these aren't paltry spells, and they can all be used limitless times, and several of them simultaneously.

[Brian Stanfield]

This is a standard feature of multipowers, or it used to be.  There's no reason you have to buy a multipower slot to the full AP available in the pool--but it's usually stupid not to since you're getting an 80% or 90% discount on the slot.

 

There also used to be a limit to the number of spells a caster could have running at once, typically INT/5.  Again this rarely matters since you rarely need to have more than attack, defense, and movement going at any particular time, and people rarely play stupid spellcasters.

 

As you say, it's stupid not to max out each slot, but if it's a fixed slot then you're stuck with it. It seems like maybe a larger pool with an AP cap for each slot would work. And thanks for the suggestion on the INT/5 rule. As you say, you don't really need too many spells going at once.

[Hyper-Man]

It's interesting you bring that up. There may be something kicking around in my memory from the old Multipower rules and the relation of AP and RP. I was a wiz at this stuff in the '80s, but I'm plenty rusty now and am trying to relearn things in 6e. Everything seems familiar and different at the same time. Regardless, that distinction actually would make some sense as a house rule in order to limit the number of slots.

 

 

 

 

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting another house rule, or perhaps a -0 Limitation, that puts a cap on the AP for any slot in the Multipower?

 

I used to know how to figure this stuff in my head as well but I've gotten used to letting Hero Designer do all the heavy lifting.  I would consider the 5e Superman I linked to an example of campaign effectiveness limits (as is, he can get up to a 75 STR via the More powerfull than a locamotive slot) rather than a defined Limitation even if only (-0) since future XP could certainly be put towards slots that used the full Reserve if the GM allowed.

 

As others have already pointed out, 'Mana' as a separate END for 'magic' is one way to limit spell casters from becoming Iron-Man clones.  Another option is to require spell component requirements.  It basically works out as a type of Charges that the GM has more control over and can be used as story hooks as well (before they can cast this key spell they'll need this key item...). 

 

HM

[Brian Stanfield]

Okay, I think I see now what you're driving at!

 

It's one thing to say "sure you can have a 60 Active Point spell" and another to say "Whoa, you got 5 spells of 60 Active Points going at once!"

 

Sorry for being a little obtuse.

 

 

I suggest requiring spellcasters to use a Mana Pool i.e. an END Reserve dedicated to spells, and make sure all spells cost mana (END) to cast.

 

 

As for the valid observation some have made that a Variable Power Pool is one of the most complex constructs in a complex system and perhaps not for beginning players, if you put a Limitation on them "Only spells from a pre-written and approved list" and "Only spells the character has acquired for their spell book" that will tend to simplify things. I think it could be manageable.

 

You might still allow some spells to have "Costs END only to Activate" for something you might want a spellcaster to be able to maintain long term, like a light spell.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

An incantation to summon a palindromedary: SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS

 

Eureka! I was beginning to think I had lost my mind and/or I totally don't understand the rules. Sorry if I went overboard on the explanation, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to be as explicit as possible. And it made things clear in my mind as well.

 

As for the END, I'm thinking of using Long Term Endurance to limit spell usage. I like the idea of a wizard being physically exhausted after a lot of spell usage.

[Brian Stanfield]

I used to know how to figure this stuff in my head as well but I've gotten used to letting Hero Designer do all the heavy lifting.  I would consider the 5e Superman I linked to an example of campaign effectiveness limits (as is, he can get up to a 75 STR via the More powerfull than a locamotive slot) rather than a defined Limitation even if only (-0) since future XP could certainly be put towards slots that used the full Reserve if the GM allowed.

 

I need to get Hero Designer, but then there's one more thing for me to learn! I'm really a luddite at heart.

 

I'm a bit intimidated by your Superman example! Did you basically just impose your own limitations on the Multipower in order to allow for flexibility in how many slots you can use at once?

[Hyper-Man]

I need to get Hero Designer, but then there's one more thing for me to learn! I'm really a luddite at heart.

 

I'm a bit intimidated by your Superman example! Did you basically just impose your own limitations on the Multipower in order to allow for flexibility in how many slots you can use at once?

 

Yes.

The core of that Framework is his ability to choose almost* any 2 slots to be used in combination (Flight + something else, Density/STR + something else, extra defenses + something else, 3 Overall Levels + something else, etc...). 

 

*Density + HA cannot be combined since they both essentially add to his base STR which is not allowed by RAW(rules as written).

 

If you want to see the evolution of that character converted to 6e and updated from a Multipwer to a VPP, then follow this LINK and click the Download button where you will find html export versions of the character that you can save to your computer to view.  The number of defined slots does get increased but they are basically all just variations of the same core abilities created in the earlier Multipower example.

 

HM

[Chris Goodwin]

On further thought, let me step back and re-frame this. Maybe you'll detect where my error is if I break down my concerns. I'm looking for a way to balance magic with "normal" gameplay in a fantasy setting (the Holy Grail of fantasy gaming). I'm trying to find a way to:

• Limit the power of each spell for a beginner, which can be gradually raised over time with XP
• Limit the number of spells for a beginner, which can also be gradually raised over time with study, scavenging, collecting, or XP
• Relate the spells to a limited school of magic, connected to a spell book for each school. A wizard may know several schools, but they cannot be mixed and matched. Each book is discrete.
• All spells should not be all available all the time. There should be some sort of time constraint on how they are studied and prepared before an adventure that constrains just how many spells are available until the wizard can prepare different spells.
• None of this should be a Vancian arrangement. I want a more organic system.
• Do all of these without a lot of extra house rules that appear arbitrary or punitive: in other words, keep the meta-gaming to a minimum.
• Make it all understandable to beginners who have no idea what the hell any of this means.

So after reading, especially Fantasy Hero 6e, the power frameworks seem like the best way to approach this. Each power framework limits the AP available for spells (#1 above), but each also has a potentially unbalancing approach to the number of spells available (concern #2 above).

 

1.  More or less what an Active Point cap does. You can set the Active Point cap as a starting point, and let characters expand beyond that with XP.

2.  You can put a limit on this if you want, as GM.  

3.  I like this one.  Easy enough to do as a campaign rule.

4.  You could require all spells to take Delayed Effect with Extra Time and OAF Spellbook to prepare.  I also posted something on knasser2's Fantasy Hero Complete thread which would address this (using the Differing Modifiers rules with Delayed Effect, though that might not be necessary).  Whether or not you use my idea, you could easily set this up as a campaign rule.  

5, 6, 7.  Hopefully what we come up with works within these requirements. 

 

Here's my suggestion: start by requiring each caster to buy all of their spells with points, paying full price.  As time goes on, they can convert their spell to a Multipower using XP; each school of magic requires a separate Multipower and a separate OAF Spellbook.  I'd recommend the Delayed Effect plus Extra Time plus OAF Spellbook, and with Delayed Effect you are encouraged under RAW to come up some method for limiting how many spells a character can have prepared at one time.  Suggestions under the rules are a Characteristic/5 (INT/5 or EGO/5 are good candidates for casters), something like a total of Ego times 5 in Active Points.  

 

Here's another idea: maybe each school of magic requires its own separate Power Skill.  Or, here's an alternative: casters have Magic Skill like you'd expect, but are also required to buy Knowledge Skills representing their various schools.  Preparing (and/or casting) a spell would require succeeding at the Magic Skill Roll using the corresponding school's KS as a Complementary Skill Roll.  

 

You could also relate the maximum number of prepared spells in a school (Delayed Effect slots) to the school's KS in some way; maybe a total of the KS's Skill Roll times 5 in Active Points, or maybe the KS roll divided by 3 in slots, meaning a character has to improve their knowledge in each school in order to advance in it.  For that matter, you could set each school's Active Point cap equal to its KS's Skill Roll times 3 in Active Points.

 

To make these non-Vancian, you could let casters refresh and prepare spells (Delayed Effect slots) whenever they have downtime, not just at the beginning of the day.

[Brian Stanfield]

Here's another idea: maybe each school of magic requires its own separate Power Skill.  Or, here's an alternative: casters have Magic Skill like you'd expect, but are also required to buy Knowledge Skills representing their various schools.  Preparing (and/or casting) a spell would require succeeding at the Magic Skill Roll using the corresponding school's KS as a Complementary Skill Roll.  

 

You could also relate the maximum number of prepared spells in a school (Delayed Effect slots) to the school's KS in some way; maybe a total of the KS's Skill Roll times 5 in Active Points, or maybe the KS roll divided by 3 in slots, meaning a character has to improve their knowledge in each school in order to advance in it.  For that matter, you could set each school's Active Point cap equal to its KS's Skill Roll times 3 in Active Points.

 

I forgot to include the Power Skills in my description. I initially thought a general "magic talent" to make the person eligible for magic, if even in latent form for later, and then a Power Skill for each school. But I think I'm dumping the talent, since it seems a bit redundant and an unfair waste of points.

 

Thanks for all your suggestions!

[Brian Stanfield]

Next topic: how to manage Endurance.

 

I like the idea of a wizard being worn out after using magic and needing a rest. My inclination is to use LTE rules for magic, but that seems a bit too costly and limiting. A warrior could swing a sword all day, but a wizard could only cast spells until his LTE is drained, and wouldn't be able to do anything even more mundane to be useful because he'd be too exhausted. It seems too punitive. Is there a way to manipulate the LTE rules so that it returns at a rate faster than REC/5 hours (if I remember the rule correctly)?

 

So I'm thinking an Endurance Reserve with the Double Endurance Limitation. This would draw END from the reserve as well as personal END. The END could be recovered, but the Reserve would only recharge as a slower rate. This way a wizard could cast spells until the Reserve is spent, but still have the END to do other non-magical things. He wouldn't become totally useless to the party. The drawback with this is that it doesn't make using magic costly enough for my taste. 

 

If I do go with the Endurance Reserve, what's a good number for that? Any ideas? I'm thinking spells in the 40 AP range for beginners, with some of them, like defense spells, being constant. It seems the Reserve would have to be big enough for defense to be practical for several Turns while also using attack spells. But what's a good number for the Reserve? I have no idea on this one. Any suggestions?

[Tom Cowan]

What do the non spell casters look like?  Are the swordsmen bricks with brick trick power pools?

[Chris Goodwin]

What do the non spell casters look like?  Are the swordsmen bricks with brick trick power pools?

 

For me: if it's Fantasy Champions, then sure.  If it's Fantasy Hero, then swordsmen are skilled characters who carry swords. 

[Brian Stanfield]

What do the non spell casters look like?  Are the swordsmen bricks with brick trick power pools?

 

Just common fantasy tropes. I want the wizards to start off rather tame and grow in strength over time, whereas the swordsmen will already be adept. The oldest versions of D&D used to be like this: the magic users were fairly weak at first, with a steep learning curve, but they grew into their own after about 10 levels or so. Although I'm not trying to recreate or mimic D&D, I like the way they used to do that. Nowadays, with 5e, D&D has just about everyone slinging spells and it's fairly uninteresting to me.

[Tom Cowan]

The lower the points the hero has the more more normal equipment adds to the power of the hero.

one way is to start with a fair bit of money but low number CPs

so a fighter with a great sword (+1 OCV 2d6k 17 STR Min) and a full set of full plate armor (8rPD/8rED 40kg) with the STR to use it is going to be better then a wiz if the wiz has to pay points for his magic and can not use heavy gear with out buying stats that are of little use later and hurting his stats and powers that are used with mage.  That is like giving the fighter up to 54 more points to start with do to normal equipment.

[Cantriped]

Just common fantasy tropes. I want the wizards to start off rather tame and grow in strength over time, whereas the swordsmen will already be adept. The oldest versions of D&D used to be like this: the magic users were fairly weak at first, with a steep learning curve, but they grew into their own after about 10 levels or so. Although I'm not trying to recreate or mimic D&D, I like the way they used to do that. Nowadays, with 5e, D&D has just about everyone slinging spells and it's fairly uninteresting to me.

It is worth bearing in mind that D&D and Pathfinder also have a well known "Martial vs. Caster Disparity". At low levels "Martial" characters are stronger, and at high levels "Casters" become much, much stronger instead. The overall trend favors Casters because their options for progression aren't limited by realism.

Pathfinder isn't much different in regard to commonality of magic. There are more than 35 base classes, and 3/4s of them have some level of spellcasting. There are entire races who have (or can have) spell-like abilities; and there are feats which can grant anybody some limited spell-like abilities.

Hero system cannot really duplicate that unfair mechanical reality; because every character is using the same rules and CP allowances to construct their character. It is easy to audit a character and determine factually whether they are stronger or weaker than another character. As such if you make one option superior to another, that is the option most of your players are going to pick.

 

As characters end up with more and more points, you going to have to find ways to allow everyone to use them without breaking the "game-feel" you are trying to create. For Caster's this is usually fairly easy, a caster can easily spend hundreds of points without branching out into a new archetype. However, the Martial archetypes are all fairly limited in their paths of expansion. If you restrict Martial characters to only making realistic choices, one of three things will happen. First, all of your martial characters will eventually start to look the same on paper; because characteristics, martial maneuvers, CSLs, PSLs, and Weapon Familiarities are all fairly cheap but usually have limited realistic ranges (making it easy to cap out across the board). Second, all of your martial characters will branch out into Caster archetypes in order to expand their options for advancement (which can be fine, it'll be sort of like having a party full of D&D paladins and rangers). Third (assuming your campaign allows/requires characters to pay CP for Wondrous Items), Martial characters will start purchasing magical versions of their preferred equipment style that allow them to continue to compete with Casters (which on paper will cause those characters to begin to be defined by their ownership over certain artifacts).

 

There is also the fairly broad area to consider in the phrase "common fantasy tropes". In fantasy anime and manga it is quite common for a Martial character without any "spellcasting" ability to be able to leap tall buildings in a single stride, move faster than the eye can track them, strike enemies from a distance with the shockwave of their sword slash, or fire a rain of hundreds of arrows from an otherwise normal looking bow. Conversely, in most of the iconic Swords & Sorcery stories sorcerers were often more powerful than warriors, but the warriors usually won the battle because sorcery wasn't fit for battle (usually because it simply took too long).

[massey]

It is worth bearing in mind that D&D and Pathfinder also have a well known "Martial vs. Caster Disparity". At low levels "Martial" characters are stronger, and at high levels "Casters" become much, much stronger instead. The overall trend favors Casters because their options for progression aren't limited by realism.

Pathfinder isn't much different in regard to commonality of magic. There are more than 35 base classes, and 3/4s of them have some level of spellcasting. There are entire races who have (or can have) spell-like abilities; and there are feats which can grant anybody some limited spell-like abilities.

Hero system cannot really duplicate that unfair mechanical reality; because every character is using the same rules and CP allowances to construct their character. It is easy to audit a character and determine factually whether they are stronger or weaker than another character. As such if you make one option superior to another, that is the option most of your players are going to pick.

 

As characters end up with more and more points, you going to have to find ways to allow everyone to use them without breaking the "game-feel" you are trying to create. For Caster's this is usually fairly easy, a caster can easily spend hundreds of points without branching out into a new archetype. However, the Martial archetypes are all fairly limited in their paths of expansion. If you restrict Martial characters to only making realistic choices, one of three things will happen. First, all of your martial characters will eventually start to look the same on paper; because characteristics, martial maneuvers, CSLs, PSLs, and Weapon Familiarities are all fairly cheap but usually have limited realistic ranges (making it easy to cap out across the board). Second, all of your martial characters will branch out into Caster archetypes in order to expand their options for advancement (which can be fine, it'll be sort of like having a party full of D&D paladins and rangers). Third (assuming your campaign allows/requires characters to pay CP for Wondrous Items), Martial characters will start purchasing magical versions of their preferred equipment style that allow them to continue to compete with Casters (which on paper will cause those characters to begin to be defined by their ownership over certain artifacts).

 

There is also the fairly broad area to consider in the phrase "common fantasy tropes". In fantasy anime and manga it is quite common for a Martial character without any "spellcasting" ability to be able to leap tall buildings in a single stride, move faster than the eye can track them, strike enemies from a distance with the shockwave of their sword slash, or fire a rain of hundreds of arrows from an otherwise normal looking bow. Conversely, in most of the iconic Swords & Sorcery stories sorcerers were often more powerful than warriors, but the warriors usually won the battle because sorcery wasn't fit for battle (usually because it simply took too long).

 

I agree with this.  If you're going to limit sword-swingers to "realistic" (say, early 80s fantasy movie) levels of skill with their weapons, then you'll need to likewise limit spellcasters.  Decide what kind of world you want, and build the system around that.

[phydaux]

It is worth bearing in mind that D&D and Pathfinder also have a well known "Martial vs. Caster Disparity". At low levels "Martial" characters are stronger, and at high levels "Casters" become much, much stronger instead.

 

Yes but you forget that, at least in older versions of D&D, monsters above level 12 begin to gain magic resistance.  That tips the scales back in the favor of the sword swingers.

 

Like I've said before, a well constructed 175 point melee oriented fantasy PC should be expected to swing with 9 Damage Classes.  So I allow my mages to construct spells that can do 9 Damage Classes.  And I build my NPSc with the expectation that they will get hit with 9 Damage Classes (so a peasant will go SPLAT with one hit, a Town Watchman will get grievously wounded with one hit, and a someone who makes a living as a ruffian will have the CV, armor, and Combat Luck to get hit and keep hitting back).   

 

And if my players have any sense at all, they build their PCs with the expectation that experienced ruffians will regularly be swinging 9 DCs at them.

 

Also, in my experience with point-buy RPGs like GURPS & Hero system, there isn't a lot of "growth" after character creation when it comes to over all power level of the PCs.  The characters "mature," but they don't become all that much more powerful in the sense of throwing around more damage classes.  The Archer will still be shooting 2d6 RKAs, but he'll have skill levels to offset range & hit location penalties.  Instead of only knowing 3-4 spells (having four slots in his Magic multipower) he will have 8-10 spells.  The Rogue will have several levels of Enhanced Perception for spotting traps & overhearing conversations.  That sort of thing.

[Cantriped]

Yes but you forget that, at least in older versions of D&D, monsters above level 12 begin to gain magic resistance.  That tips the scales back in the favor of the sword swingers.

I've been playing some version or another of D&D for 25 years. I didn't forget, Spell resistance just has little impact on the Martial vs. Caster Disparity. In 3rd edition and Pathfinder enemies begin getting Spell Resistance even earlier (Drow characters for example can have SR at level 1 in Pathfinder). I've read many, many debates on the Martial vs. Caster Disparity... its an excepted fact amongst most D&D and Pathfinder power gamers...

 

The disparity isn't just due to the fact that high level Casters can usually dish out more damage than anybody else in the game (although they can also do that too)...

You also have to account for the fact that if you give them time to prepare a Caster can very nearly out perform any other character at any given role they specialize in... without having to specialize in it... For example, a Cleric who spends a significant portion of their spell slots on it can easily out perform a Fighter, Ranger, or Paladin in any given combat simply by buffing themselves to the high heavens, then casting Divine Power. Wizards can do the same thing (only better) with Tensor's Transformation. An illusionist can out perform a Thief (or Rogue depending upon edition) just by having access to a few castings of Invisibility, Knock, and Find Traps.

Caster's can also fill roles nobody else is even allowed to; Healer or Artillery for example. Not to mention the fact that high enough level casters can do things that no other character could ever hope to accomplish; such as creating demi-planes, stopping time, interplanetary teleportation, and resurrecting kings who've been dead for centuries.

And the worst part is, almost all of these shenanigans can be accomplished with the Core rulebooks for any given edition of D&D... so we aren't even talking about obscure supplements breaking the game. The game is simply fundamentally broken, and every new edition inherits some of the brokenness from the previous editions.

[Cantriped]

Also, in my experience with point-buy RPGs like GURPS & Hero system, there isn't a lot of "growth" after character creation when it comes to over all power level of the PCs.  The characters "mature," but they don't become all that much more powerful in the sense of throwing around more damage classes.  The Archer will still be shooting 2d6 RKAs, but he'll have skill levels to offset range & hit location penalties.  Instead of only knowing 3-4 spells (having four slots in his Magic multipower) he will have 8-10 spells.  The Rogue will have several levels of Enhanced Perception for spotting traps & overhearing conversations.  That sort of thing.

This is generally true. Hero Players tend spend Experience differently than they spend their Starting CP. But this doesn't change the fact that many of the things Warriors want/need to buy are fairly inexpensive. It only costs 10 CP to bring your Strength up to the normal characteristic maxima, and it "only" takes 3 or 4 scenarios to earn that much XP if you use the suggested values from CC/FHC. Likewise, two 3-point CSLs can be used to the increase either the accuracy or damage of both the Archer's Longbow and Shortswords, and you can acquire one at the end of almost every scenario if you so choose (and the GM doesn't limit your expenditure). In a long-running campaign it is entirely reasonable to expect warriors to eventually "cap out across the board".

[Chris Goodwin]

This is generally true. Hero Players tend spend Experience differently than they spend their Starting CP. But this doesn't change the fact that many of the things Warriors want/need to buy are fairly inexpensive. It only costs 10 CP to bring your Strength up to the normal characteristic maxima, and it "only" takes 3 or 4 scenarios to earn that much XP if you use the suggested values from CC/FHC. Likewise, two 3-point CSLs can be used to the increase either the accuracy or damage of both the Archer's Longbow and Shortswords, and you can acquire one at the end of almost every scenario if you so choose (and the GM doesn't limit your expenditure). In a long-running campaign it is entirely reasonable to expect warriors to eventually "cap out across the board".

 

I only use point caps during character creation.  XP expenditures have to be okayed with the GM, anyway.  

[TheDarkness]

Okay, as it turns out, I summed up the notes on the idea for a pool based around skills in one post in the rebuilding MA from scratch thread in the Hero Discussion forum. Hopefully, this link works, If not, I'll copy the whole thing.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93329-rebuilding-martial-arts-from-scratch/page-6?do=findComment&comment=2544607

[Brian Stanfield]

Okay, as it turns out, I summed up the notes on the idea for a pool based around skills in one post in the rebuilding MA from scratch thread in the Hero Discussion forum. Hopefully, this link works, If not, I'll copy the whole thing.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93329-rebuilding-martial-arts-from-scratch/page-6?do=findComment&comment=2544607

 

I see what you're getting at here. Both the linked thread and a comment you made earlier about spell trees is something I've been wrestling with in my mind for a long time. It sounds like you've been thinking some similar things about pre-requisites, development, etc. I was trying to come up with a natural and integrated way to allow for spell skill growth based on Active Points known, XP used, etc. The formula was getting way out of hand in my head and I had to quit. But it seems like you are thinking along those same lines. 

 

As for the skill thread, would making a "skill enhancer" as discussed in Hero System Skills save some time and effort with your pool problem? Maybe not, but just a thought.

[TheDarkness]

I see what you're getting at here. Both the linked thread and a comment you made earlier about spell trees is something I've been wrestling with in my mind for a long time. It sounds like you've been thinking some similar things about pre-requisites, development, etc. I was trying to come up with a natural and integrated way to allow for spell skill growth based on Active Points known, XP used, etc. The formula was getting way out of hand in my head and I had to quit. But it seems like you are thinking along those same lines. 

 

As for the skill thread, would making a "skill enhancer" as discussed in Hero System Skills save some time and effort with your pool problem? Maybe not, but just a thought.

I'm not familiar with skill enhancers.

[Brian Stanfield]

I'm not familiar with skill enhancers.

 

 

​They are like little powers, or talents, that affect other skills. Things like jack of all trades, linguist, etc., have an affect on the cost of related skills. Check 6e1 96 for a quick rundown. There is a much more detailed discussion with more applications like you've been discussing, including how they may be created, in Hero System Skills, pages 46-52. See especially the "expert" skill enhancer on page 47. It relates to the other discussion you directed me to, I think. There's also an in-depth discussion of skill trees and how they relate and affect each other in chapter 2. Check it out if you haven't.

[Wardsman]

​They are like little powers, or talents, that affect other skills. Things like jack of all trades, linguist, etc., have an affect on the cost of related skills. Check 6e1 96 for a quick rundown. There is a much more detailed discussion with more applications like you've been discussing, including how they may be created, in Hero System Skills, pages 46-52. See especially the "expert" skill enhancer on page 47. It relates to the other discussion you directed me to, I think. There's also an in-depth discussion of skill trees and how they relate and affect each other in chapter 2. Check it out if you haven't.

He seems to be referring to 5th edition Ultimate Skills. Excellent book. I'm basing my spell research rules off of ideas in it.

I'm also tweaking heroic stat range a skill breaks based on ideas in it to fix complaints about characters in low power settings.

 

Standard Skill enhancers are usually limited to  one type of skill. 

"Expert" is one that crosses types but restricted by subject.

I'm thinking of creating one called Student of the Arcane.

 

Okay, as it turns out, I summed up the notes on the idea for a pool based around skills in one post in the rebuilding MA from scratch thread in the Hero Discussion forum. Hopefully, this link works, If not, I'll copy the whole thing.

 

http://www.herogames...-6#entry2544607

 

Ultimate Skill also discusses skill interaction with power frameworks on p. 60.

It discusses putting skills in pools.