Creating a magic system with Multipowers?

[Brian Stanfield]

I posted this in the general rule questions. Hopefully Steve Long will have a simple answer for me. In the meantime I thought I'd open a discussion here while I wait for an answer.

 

I've read a lot of the discussions about magic systems in a fantasy setting, and I had developed a VPP magic system where each pool represented a spell book from a specific school of magic. Changing the pool would be limited to extended time, conferring the spell book, spell research skill roll, etc. The advantage is that a VPP has a natural cap on the number of spells available. A spell book may contain many spells, but only the "prepared" ones are available.

 

The more I thought of it, though, I began to reconsider this. The way the rules are written, a VPP is designed to allow multiple spells be active simultaneously (the real cost of the spells cannot exceed the pool). I want more of a limit on how many spells can be active at one time. So it seems like maybe a Multipower would be a better option.

 

So, here's my question: Is there a way to allow for changing the slots of a Multipower in the same way a VPP is done as above (extended time between adventures, access to spell book, etc.)? For example, changing the slots of a Multipower based on fire magic: one slot is a fireball, another is a fire shield, and another is burning hands; after an adventure it seems like maybe a spell slot offering life support protection against cold might be more useful, another slot with flash, and another with a fire beam. Let's assume the point costs are equivalent.

 

The reason I'm thinking a Multipower is a better approach is because it limits the number of spells available at any one time. I really like how flexible a VPP is, but it assumes that all the spells can be active at once. The slot structure of a Multipower is more restrictive in a way I prefer. There'd have to be some sort of slot limit introduced, perhaps a function of INT, so only a limited number of spells are available. But I just can't figure out how to manage changing the slots like is possible with a VPP. Without this feature, all the spells in the spell book would always be available in a Multipower, which is too unbalancing.

 

In comparing VPP and Multipower, my rationale is this: in trying to balance the power of magic, I want to limit the number of spells available at any one time. The VPP has a natural limit built into the number of slots based on the real cost of each spell, but they are all hypothetically available simultaneously, which is potentially very unbalancing. The Multipower doesn't have a cap on the number of slots available, so all spells in a spell book would be available, but it is impossible to use all the slots at once (by definition). If I could limit the slots in a Multipower it would limit the number of spells someone has available to them, so they would have the balancing effect of having to switch them out like in a VPP (by consulting the spell book). And there is also the restriction on how many slots could actually be allotted.

 

There may be an obvious solution, but I can't figure it out.

 

Any ideas?

[Crusher Bob]

In theory, campaigns will allow you to have a (radiation accident/ change in origin/ change in writer) which can significantly alter your character as long as you are spending at least (5, 10, some number) amount of XP at once.

 

Another way you could do it is make a custom limiter for VPPs for you game.  Where the limitation determines how mayn different choices of things from a list you can have in your VPP.  So if you are limited to, I dunno, 'lesser fire magic' then you can fit any 'lesser fire magic: a specific list of effects' into your VPP, but how well you are actually able to use the lesser fire magic would depend on your VPP reserve pool.  For example, if you are really good at it, then you could do a lot of it without many limitations.  Or if you weren't really good, you'd need lots of limitations.

[Brian Stanfield]

The VPP already has a limit built into the pool. Say, for example, a pool of 50 points and a control cost of 40 points for a beginner. If the slots had a real cost of 8 points you could have 6 spells available. This works great as a limiting factor. But what I'm trying to avoid is a character who will have all 6 spells active at once. Maybe I'm overthinking this too much, but a Multipower explicitly limits how many spells are usable at any given time.

[Crusher Bob]

/but don't the END cost and action economy mostly already do this?  I mean your theoretical example of keeping 6 40 point powers running at once is 24 END every time your turn comes up.  You could also look at the lockout limitation

[Brian Stanfield]

Excellent point about the endurance. As for Lockout, that is a good option but I'm not sure it's what I'm looking for. As a rule I don't want to completely make it impossible to use multiple spells, so I wouldn't want to apply it to the entire control cost. I'm thinking in terms of the ground rules at this point.

[Lucius]

The VPP already has a limit built into the pool. Say, for example, a pool of 50 points and a control cost of 40 points for a beginner. If the slots had a real cost of 8 points you could have 6 spells available. This works great as a limiting factor. But what I'm trying to avoid is a character who will have all 6 spells active at once. Maybe I'm overthinking this too much, but a Multipower explicitly limits how many spells are usable at any given time.

Does it? That's not my understanding of how a Multipower works.

 

As I understand it, if you have flexible slots and have, say, a 60 Active point pool and 20 different slots, there's nothing keeping you from allocating 3 pts to each slot and having them all active. Maybe most Powers can't do much with just 3 Active Points to them, but the Multipower structure itself doesn't place a limit on number of powers in use at a time.

 

What it DOES do is put an upper limit on the number of Active Points in use at a time. If your pool is 60 Active Points you can't have a 30 pt power and a 30 pt power and a 10 pts power all going at once. Conversely, the Variable Power Pool has a point pool that restricts the number of Real Points of power that can be in use; if you are worried about wizards running around with too many powers at once perhaps you can just cut down the allowable size of the pool?

 

But to answer the question you actually asked, all you need is to put Limitations on the Multipower (not the slots but the Multipower pool itself) that restrict how often/where/when the slots can be changed.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Variable Palindromedary Pool

 

Lucius Alexander

[MrKinister]

Remember, you can always buy up the Multipower's pool up to the point where you can have all the spells you want up at the same time. (Although the cost would be prohibitive, and it would be a silly idea.)

 

For my magic system I have a limit on the multipower pool that is based on one of several stats. For example, for mages, the maximum pool points are based on their INT x 3. At max racial INT (say, 20), their max pool cost tops off at 60. Raising their INT in any way (pay double for above racial max, or use permanent magics or items) also allows them to raise their pool points. But it gets expensive. This way I keep taps on the maximum AP/DC for spells, and make those INT raising items (and the poeple who use them) valuable and rare.

[Hyper-Man]

I recommend starting with a Multipower and later upgrading it to a VPP once there are more slots to choose from ahead of time than can be 'memorized' for a particular adventure/encounter.

 

From http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92717-variable-power-pools/?p=2480388

 

Here is an example of a non-magical special effect VPP that is otherwise functionally equivalent to Vancian Magic from D&D.

 

From this rookie version of a famous comic book character.

46    The Utility Belt: Variable Power Pool (Gadget Pool), 30 base + 30 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (2 or more slots with a combined Real Cost of 30 Real Points can be active at any one time; +1/2), No Skill Roll Required (+1) (67 Active Points); Limited Class of Powers (Gadgets) Operates like a Multipower with a Dozen or so different slots ALL with the Extra Time (Half Phase) to Activate Limitation (The specific set of slots carried at any one time can be swapped out at the Batcave; -1/2); all slots Restrainable (Must be able to reach individual compartments; -1/2), IIF (The Belt is IIF (worn) Individual active slots are IIF at a minimum but can be OAF, OIF or IAF (in hand); -1/4)

[Notes: This is just a small sampling of what is typically carried.  For inspiration to create more slots see the example Utility Belt Multipower in the Hero System Equipment Guide (6e) on pages 186-187.]
0    1) Batarangs: Blast 6d6 (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), 2 clips of 6 Recoverable Charges (-0) Real Cost: 10

[Notes: Up to 8d6 with Batarang Fu Basic Shot.] - END=[6 rc]
0    2) Taser Knuckles: Hand-To-Hand Attack (vs. Energy Defense) +6d6 (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), 4 clips of 8 Charges (-0) Real Cost: 13

[Notes: Up to 12d6 with Bat Fu Martial Strike.] - END=[8]
0    3) Flash Pellets: Sight Group Flash 4d6, Area Of Effect (32m Radius Explosion; +1/2) (30 Active Points); IAF (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), 16 Charges (-0) Real Cost: 13 - END=[16]
0    4) Batlines: Swinging 30m, x4 Noncombat (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), 4 clips of 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/2) Real Cost: 12 - END=[12 rc]
0    5) Bat Bolas: Entangle 2d6, 4 PD/4 ED (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), 2 clips of 6 Recoverable Charges (-0) Real Cost: 12 - END=[6 rc]

 

HM

[Brian Stanfield]

First off, good point about the 3AP slots. It's possible, I guess. But I'm coming from the perspective of the RAW, which explicitly say that all the slots cannot be simultaneously active. I guess there's always a way around that, eh?
 

But to answer the question you actually asked, all you need is to put Limitations on the Multipower (not the slots but the Multipower pool itself) that restrict how often/where/when the slots can be changed.Lucius AlexanderVariable Palindromedary PoolLucius Alexander

As for this second part, I guess that's my question: can a Multipower actually be changed once built? Or is this a benefit that is unique to a VPP?

[Brian Stanfield]

I recommend starting with a Multipower and later upgrading it to a VPP once there are more slots to choose from ahead of time than can be 'memorized' for a particular adventure/encounter.

 

From http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92717-variable-power-pools/?p=2480388

 

 

 

HM

Good point about changing from one to another power framework. I'm going to think on that.

 

As for the blue text in the quoted material, I'm still reading at as a limitation on a VPP which makes it resemble a Multipower. I'm wondering if here's actually a way to adjust a Multipower to have changeable slots. I guess this would be an advantage, even if it took extra time, etc. I'm not sure yet without a ruling on the slots.

 

It's not an issue of them being variable as opposed to fixed . . . Or is it? Are there limits to how variable a slot is? Can it be completely rewritten if it's variable, or only used at an adjusted power level of what's alrleady written?

[Lucius]

First off, good point about the 3AP slots. It's possible, I guess. But I'm coming from the perspective of the RAW, which explicitly say that all the slots cannot be simultaneously active.

Please tell me what version of the rules you are using and exactly where it says that?

 

As for this second part, I guess that's my question: can a Multipower actually be changed once built? Or is this a benefit that is unique to a VPP?

 

Okay, this made me want to ask what exactly you mean - "changing slots" as I would use the term is more or less the entire reason for having a Multipower in the first place - but then you wrote this:

 

Good point about changing from one to another power framework. I'm going to think on that.

 

As for the blue text in the quoted material, I'm still reading at as a limitation on a VPP which makes it resemble a Multipower. I'm wondering if here's actually a way to adjust a Multipower to have changeable slots. I guess this would be an advantage, even if it took extra time, etc. I'm not sure yet without a ruling on the slots.

 

It's not an issue of them being variable as opposed to fixed . . . Or is it? Are there limits to how variable a slot is? Can it be completely rewritten if it's variable, or only used at an adjusted power level of what's alrleady written?

And I think I know what you're talking about. No, I don't think a Multipower slot can be "completely re-written." You can make it extremely, extremely flexible - An Energy Blast in a Flexible slot with Variable Advantages, Variable Special Effects, and Variable Limitations, is a veritable (and variable) Wizard's Armory full of possibilities - but you can't switch out an Energy Blast for Flight or Invisibility or Resistant Protection.

 

So if that's what you want, you want a Variable Power Pool. Bringing me back around to the question, what exactly is it that you feel you need to do, that you can't do with a Variable Power Pool? By restricting the allowable size of the Pool, you can restrict the amount of Real Points worth of powers in use; if for some reason you want a character to be able to have, say, a 20 Real Point power, but not be able to have 20 different 1 pt powers, you can put a Limitation on the Control Cost defining how many powers can be active at a time.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants in indoor heated Variable Power Pool

[Hyper-Man]

I strongly recommend purchasing a copy of Hero Designer which will make creating both Multipower and VPP examples for comparison much easier (example: you can copy/paste slots from one to the other). HD supports both 5e and 6e rules.

 

HM

[Brian Stanfield]

Please tell me what version of the rules you are using and exactly where it says that?  Okay, this made me want to ask what exactly you mean - "changing slots" as I would use the term is more or less the entire reason for having a Multipower in the first place - but then you wrote this: And I think I know what you're talking about. No, I don't think a Multipower slot can be "completely re-written." You can make it extremely, extremely flexible - An Energy Blast in a Flexible slot with Variable Advantages, Variable Special Effects, and Variable Limitations, is a veritable (and variable) Wizard's Armory full of possibilities - but you can't switch out an Energy Blast for Flight or Invisibility or Resistant Protection.So if that's what you want, you want a Variable Power Pool. Bringing me back around to the question, what exactly is it that you feel you need to do, that you can't do with a Variable Power Pool? By restricting the allowable size of the Pool, you can restrict the amount of Real Points worth of powers in use; if for some reason you want a character to be able to have, say, a 20 Real Point power, but not be able to have 20 different 1 pt powers, you can put a Limitation on the Control Cost defining how many powers can be active at a time.Lucius AlexanderThe palindromedary wants in indoor heated Variable Power Pool

I wish I could figure out how to quote only part of your post. Anyway, this comes from the opening description of Multipowers, 6e1, page 402, column 1, at the very top: "He may change the distribution of reserve points from Phase to Phase, but because the powers in the Multipower share the reserve points, a character cannot use all the powers in his Multipower at full power at the same time."

 

I appreciate your points. I think maybe you're right: I just need to use VPP. What my concern is is that it doesn't limit the number of active spells in the way a Multipower does.

 

Here's what I want to accomplish: I don't want a Vancian magic system, nor a level based system. The reason I started Hero system in the '80s was that it specifically didn't have these things. But I've had a lot of time ff and am trying to remember everything again. I love 6e, and will read every page, but it's a task! Anyway, I love the idea of a power framework attached to a spell book. It never. Are sense to me in D&D that a brilliant wizard wouldn't be able to "remember" a spell after casting it. If you know it, you should know it. But I also don't want to have all known spells available at all times. It seems more reasonable to have a collection of spells ready to use after referring to the spell book.

 

For example, I use technical books all the time, and know what's in them, but I need to look up the finer details at times to remember. I'm trying to mimic this. Magic should be studied and learned, but not always remembered for an unlimited time without frequent use. A Multipower would make all known spells available at all times (which I don't want), but the reserve limits what can be used. All spells can't be used at the same time (as in the quote above). I'd rather have that arrangement but with moveable slots like in a VPP so that there are some spells fresh in memory which can be used frequently, but not all at once.

 

However, as has been pointed out, it seems that endurance costs alone will limit now many spells can realistically be used at once. So back to the VPP I go.

[Brian Stanfield]

By the way, I got a response from Steve Long on the rules forum, and it was so unbelievably simple! I just didn't step back far enough to see it!

[Chris Goodwin]

There's another way to do it with Multipowers as well.  Might be a tad more expensive, but not terribly much, because Multipower slots are cheap.    But you could build a single spell as three different Multipower slots, with different Limitations applied.  One could have OAF Spellbook (-1); one could have RSR: Magic (-1/2) and Must Have Studied Spell In Spellbook Within Past Hour (-1/2); one could have RSR: Magic at -1 per 5 Active Points (-1).  If you have the book with you, you can just whip the spell out.  If you've studied it in the past hour (or however long you as GM want that to be) you get your Magic Skill Roll at -1 per 10 Active Points.  Otherwise, it's harder for you to remember the spell right away, but not impossible, thus the Magic Skill Roll at -1 per 5 Active Points.  

 

You could also do it with a single slot and Variable Limitation (-1/2), requiring them to take a total of -1 in Limitations; as a GM requirement you can set that to any combination of the above.  

 

If you're going to do it Steve's way, I'd recommend applying the Limitation about when and how you can change to the slots rather than the pool (effectively, giving each of the slots its own "Here's what I must do to allocate points to this slot" Limitation).  Otherwise you can ramp up the Active Points in the pool to huge amounts, and never reallocate your slots; meaning this character has that pool a lot cheaper than another character who didn't take that Limitation but has a smaller array of Powers to choose from. Alternately, make the "when and how" Limitation worth a lot less than you otherwise might for a VPP.  

[Cantriped]

One point that hasn't been mentioned: As the GM, you can allow your players to buy and sell off game elements between sessions, this includes slots in a multipower. I don't see any problem with a spellcaster coming into a session with an entirely different set of Multipower slots than the previous session if the rational is "My spellbook actually contains far more spells than can keep memorized at once; I just used my spellbook to memorize new spells for this adventure. As weird as it sounds, I literally can't remember how to cast burning hands right now... My spells are very complicated, with lots if minor variable which all must be remembered perfectly. I have to spend days/weeks memorizing each one to cast it."

 

As the GM, you also have the right to set an arbitrary limit on the number of powers a character can have active at once. Such a limit is actually a prerequisite of players being allowed to use the Delayed Effect modifier (which is practically tailor made to represent vancian spellcasting systems)

[massey]

I wish I could figure out how to quote only part of your post. Anyway, this comes from the opening description of Multipowers, 6e1, page 402, column 1, at the very top: "He may change the distribution of reserve points from Phase to Phase, but because the powers in the Multipower share the reserve points, a character cannot use all the powers in his Multipower at full power at the same time."

 

I appreciate your points. I think maybe you're right: I just need to use VPP. What my concern is is that it doesn't limit the number of active spells in the way a Multipower does.

 

Here's what I want to accomplish: I don't want a Vancian magic system, nor a level based system. The reason I started Hero system in the '80s was that it specifically didn't have these things. But I've had a lot of time ff and am trying to remember everything again. I love 6e, and will read every page, but it's a task! Anyway, I love the idea of a power framework attached to a spell book. It never. Are sense to me in D&D that a brilliant wizard wouldn't be able to "remember" a spell after casting it. If you know it, you should know it. But I also don't want to have all known spells available at all times. It seems more reasonable to have a collection of spells ready to use after referring to the spell book.

 

For example, I use technical books all the time, and know what's in them, but I need to look up the finer details at times to remember. I'm trying to mimic this. Magic should be studied and learned, but not always remembered for an unlimited time without frequent use. A Multipower would make all known spells available at all times (which I don't want), but the reserve limits what can be used. All spells can't be used at the same time (as in the quote above). I'd rather have that arrangement but with moveable slots like in a VPP so that there are some spells fresh in memory which can be used frequently, but not all at once.

 

However, as has been pointed out, it seems that endurance costs alone will limit now many spells can realistically be used at once. So back to the VPP I go.

 

 

Just slap a limitation on the Multipower that restricts when the player can change slots.

 

 

50 point Multipower, "Magic spells"  custom limitation* -1/2

-- 10D6 Energy Blast

-- 20/20 Force Field, costs end only to activate

-- 25" Teleport

-- 10" Tunneling

-- a different 50 point power

-- a different 50 point power

-- a different 50 point power

-- a different 50 point power

-- a different 50 point power

-- a different 50 point power

-- a different 50 point power

-- a different 50 point power

-- a different 50 point power

 

*custom limitation:  The player may select up to 3 spells he has "memorized".  He can switch freely between these spells just like a normal multipower.  To change the spells he has memorized, he needs to spend an hour studying with his spellbook.  Then he may select up to 3 different spells.

[Cantriped]

*custom limitation:  The player may select up to 3 spells he has "memorized".  He can switch freely between these spells just like a normal multipower.  To change the spells he has memorized, he needs to spend an hour studying with his spellbook.  Then he may select up to 3 different spells.

 

You can put normal Limitations on the process of changing Multipower Slots. For example, OAF (Spellbook; -1), and Extra Time (1 Hour; -3) are legal modifiers for Only To Change Slots. However in that case only the multipower takes those modifiers, not the slots it contains (since the spells themselves don't require a spellbook or an hour of reference). 

[Brian Stanfield]

You can put normal Limitations on the process of changing Multipower Slots. For example, OAF (Spellbook; -1), and Extra Time (1 Hour; -3) are legal modifiers for Only To Change Slots. However in that case only the multipower takes those modifiers, not the slots it contains (since the spells themselves don't require a spellbook or an hour of reference).

 

That's pretty much what I've come up with, except for the extra time limitation. The way I understand it, that has to do with the casting time: for a -3 limitation you'd have to take a day to cast the spell. I followed the VPP limitations for changing slots, where 1 day would be -1/2.

[massey]

You can put normal Limitations on the process of changing Multipower Slots. For example, OAF (Spellbook; -1), and Extra Time (1 Hour; -3) are legal modifiers for Only To Change Slots. However in that case only the multipower takes those modifiers, not the slots it contains (since the spells themselves don't require a spellbook or an hour of reference). 

 

When I say "custom limitation", I'm really just talking about "limited power".  And I chose to do it that way, because his description was that you'd be able to change between a few of the slots, but not have all of them.  If you have 3 spells ready, you shouldn't need your spellbook to switch between them.  It's only when you go outside of your prepared spells that you need it.  

[Brian Stanfield]

For the record, the reason I've been looking at this power framework issue is because I want to simulate a learning curve for new magic users. I want to cap the power of the spells, and also how many are available at any given time.

 

The VPP is great at providing a cap with the control cost, but because the pool is distributed among the Real Cost of spells, which are heavily limited, a character could potentially have a lot of fairly powerful spells available at any given time.

 

A Multipower also gives a cap with the reserve, but each slot is based on Active Points,mwhich severely limits how many and how powerful the spells can be. A newbie could potentially have a lot of really simple spells available, which isn't all that unbalancing. If hey go for powerful spells then they will be limited. And if they are restricted at first to fixed slots, which can be bought up to variable slots later, it provides a built in progression for the magic users. The character could collect a bunch of spells as slots in the Multipower, but could only allot a few of them at any given time. If I limit the time required for reassigning the slots, that limits how many spells are available at any given time. A day of study ( brushing up on the details) will allow for a different selection of spells.

 

I am still considering, however, a VPP for divine magic, since they (may) only have access to spells through prayer, not study, and so may not have a spell book. Of course, now that I think of it, I suppose there could instead be a prayer and ritual book instead of a spell book. Hmmmm . . . .

[TheDarkness]

On the Hero System forum, there is a thread on revamping the martial arts system in which the topic of creating a skill related pool has come up often. Some discussion of the pool is for spells, and one of the central ideas being that it should be incremental, so that high level things must have lower level spells that must be in place first. Admittedly, my own contributions, as someone with less experience in Hero magic, has been more a structural view on it, how to build a pool that generally behaves in that way without constraining it to a preapproved list of spells, so that players may still use their own ingenuity.

 

It seems to me that power limits that gradually increase are actually a campaign world level thing, as opposed to a system level one. As such, it seems simple enough for a GM to say, here are the caps on your pool and its slots at the level of a x point character, here they are at x+50, etc.

[Lucius]

I wish I could figure out how to quote only part of your post. Anyway, this comes from the opening description of Multipowers, 6e1, page 402, column 1, at the very top: "He may change the distribution of reserve points from Phase to Phase, but because the powers in the Multipower share the reserve points, a character cannot use all the powers in his Multipower at full power at the same time."

Bolding and underline added for emphasis. It's not saying the character can't use all the powers in the Multipower at one time. It's saying they can't all be used AT FULL POWER at the same time.

 

I appreciate your points. I think maybe you're right: I just need to use VPP. What my concern is is that it doesn't limit the number of active spells in the way a Multipower does.

But it DOES limit them in a DIFFERENT way. Is there some reason you can't just restrict how big the Variable Power Pools Pool is, so the character can only have a few Real Points worth of spells at a time?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Restricting a palindromedary's Unreal Points

[phydaux]

IMO VPPs are too powerful in a fantasy setting.  

 

In my game magic is a multipower.  You learn spells by buying slots in your multipower.  That way you can cast any spell you know any time you have the END to pay for it, but ONLY the spells you have taken the time (spent the XP points) to learn.  And spell users are forbidden from converting their multipower into a VPP.  

 

Also, IMO, a 3d6 HtHKA is not out of the question for a properly constructed melee type (Sword plus STR plus Advantages) so I cap magic user's multipowers at 45 points.  That gives magic users plenty of points for KA-BOOM powers, as well as enough points to play with for some nice subtle powers.

[Cantriped]

The VPP is great at providing a cap with the control cost, but because the pool is distributed among the Real Cost of spells, which are heavily limited, a character could potentially have a lot of fairly powerful spells available at any given time.

There is no mechanic linking Control vs. Pool sizes in a VPP, so it is entirely possible to have a VPP with a Control of 40, -1 in Common Limitations (Gestures, Incantations, and Restrainable for example), but only a 20 point pool (total cost 30 CP). Meaning the character only has enough space to have 1 spell memorized at a time unless it they choose to memorize much weaker or much more limited spells.