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Creating a magic system with Multipowers?


Brian Stanfield

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I think one thing is, using Harry Potter, while the low powered students did not have much in the way of powerful spells, some, like Hermoine, did have a lot of low powered spells.

 

This all, to me, seems like the sort of thing campaign worlds are made of. You are needing to prevent magic users from having a huge. POWERFUL repertoire of spells. I would say it's not necessary to prevent them from having a large list of weak spells, and, frankly, if you use pools, they can have such.

 

One of the reasons that I favor pools for magic is that they give the player room to be inventive. Especially VPPs. However, I recognize that fantasy hero has a problem, in that the system, originally designed for supers games where characters who are normals are still kind of super, but in fantasy, there are more actual normals, and the difference in abilities can become rather difficult. I understand where a VPP could be problematic as it may normally be used.

 

It still seems to me that pools are very useful for this, just problematic.

 

Let's say that, even with dividing out magic into schools, with each school representing a different pool. Back to Harry Potter. In Harry Potter, EVERYONE has to know some potions, some charms, some divination, some defensive magic, some this, some that. If you want players to specialize in a school from the start, you exacerbate your problem, because they do not have to split out their points between as many pools, and ironically now have more points to back a pool with more abilities. Ironically, I think the solution is more pools, not less.

 

If you require them to have some abilities in, let's say, five fields, with one or two being their main focus, this splits up points. For the sake of VPPs, this split doesn't solve the problem entirely, since as long as they have the points, they can fill it with a bunch of spells.

 

However, if you then subdivide every branch out, so that instead of buying a divination pool and being able to muster every divination spell possible, one has to first have a minor divination pool, and, if desired, then have an adept divination pool and a higher divination pool, very quickly the number of spells they can have in a VPP will become much smaller, and they will have to pay more for the privilege.

 

Further, if they want to have a lot of spells in such pools, they will probably have to invent more, which is kind of cool, these wizards walking around thinking of new spells.

 

As for preventing multiple spells at the same time, I think you'd have to go the route of one or the other of the build solutions presented in this thread.

 

And, for the record, I think the Dumbledore vs. Voldemort duel is possibly the best wizard's duel on film. I'm actually designing my own game, and that fight is a big part of how magic can work in what I'm trying to make.

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Copied from Alcamtar's post on page four of this thread:  http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94453-swap-in-replacement-for-dd-5e/page-4

 

I also wanted to address an idea for how to do D&D Vancian magic, if that is what you are interested in.

 

There are three core mechanics that regulate spells in D&D: (1) how many and which spells you know, (2) the need to memorize them each day, and (3) how many times you can use them per day.

 

In Hero, spells you know (1) are bought with points, and memorization (2) is the Delayed Effect advantage. Just like in D&D you can reskin it in Hero as pre-casting, hanging spells, enchanting acorns, "stacking your rack", whatever, it is the mechanic that matters. The time spent memorizing is the "casting time" in Hero, and delayed spells are released instantly. If you want a casting time at time of use, then either do not delay the spell, or create a custom limitation. A really nice thing about Delayed Effect is that you can take huge limitations on casting time to reduce the cost of your spells. Nothing about Delayed Effect says that you cannot re-memorize spells, unless you add a custom limitation "can only cast in the morning."

 

How many times per day can be handled multiple ways. The simplest way is charges: X times per day. That also eliminates END cost, which is not present in D&D. But another (more fine-grained) method is to have an Endurance Reserve to power your spells, tuned so that it recharges all its points every day. For example a 240 END pool that recharges 10 per hour. This allows each spell to vary in how much of your power it consumes, at the expense of tracking END points and recoveries, and also when you're desperate you can wait an hour to get a few points back. Cantrips are almost free and unlimited while a single huge spell may drain nearly all your power. This accomplishes the effect of "use per day" in a way that is more reflective of fantasy literature, but it is not as true to the flavor of D&D.

 

Duration from spells can be handled with Time Limit.

 

A pure D&D system that would be very easy for players:

Multipower with X-point reserve, all: N charges (?), Delayed Effect (+1/4), incantations (-1/4), gestures (-1/4), requires OAF fragile spellbook to cast (-1.25), requires light to use (-1/4), extra time 5 minutes (-2)

[Campaign rule: number of delayed spells are limited by the charges in the multipower.]

That says that you can cast N spells per day, up to X active points each, you can restrain or silence wizards to keep them from casting spells, and memorization requires 5 minutes with a spellbook and light to read it. X is 30 for first level spells, 45 for second level spells, 60 for third level, etc. You only need one Multipower sized to the largest spells you can cast. 

 

So if you have 3/2/2/1 spell slots, but a 4th level multipower with 8 charges. It would look like this:

Multipower with 75-point reserve, 8 charges (-1/2), Delayed Effect (+1/4), incantations (-1/4), gestures (-1/4), requires OAF fragile spellbook to cast (-1.25), requires light to use (-1/4), extra time 5 minutes (-2). Cost: 17 points

(4v) Shield: +2 DCV and 10 Power Defense, 20 active.

(14v) Magic Missile: 1d6 energy RKA, Autofire x3 (+1.25), NND vs shield spell or power defense (+2), accurate vs DCV 3 (+1/2), 71 active

(10v) Sleep: 3d6 Drain STUN, Uncontrolled (+1/2), Increased max effect  x2 [36 STUN] (+1/4), area 4m radius (+1/4), only until asleep (-1/4), active 60

(2v) Levitate: Flight 20m, only vertical (-1), concentrate 1/2 DCV throughout (-1/2), active 20

(15v) Fireball: 10d6 Blast, area 20 ft radius (+1/2), 75 active [15 per 2d6]

(10v) Phantasmal Killer: Mental Blast 2d6 (20), does Body (+1), Time Limit lingering 1 minute (+3/4), active 55

You cannot have more spells active than the pool size. To levitate (20) while casting a fireball (60) you'd need an 80 point pool, or you need to reduce the power of those slots so they fit (which is why this example bought them as varaible slots). For example, 5m levitattion would fit with a 7d6 fireball.

 

If you want spells only to be prepared in the morning, use standard charges. If you want to allow a mage to rest during the day and recover spells, make them charges "recoverable after a 4-hour nap" or something.

 

Cantrips are special, you can use them in 5E D&D at will, but they are weak. Creating a separate Multipower for cantrips allows them to use different rules:

Cantrip Multipower with 15-point reserve, Reduced END zero (+1/2), incantations (-1/4), gestures (-1/4): cost 15 points

(1f) Acid Splash: 1d6 energy RKA, 15 active

(1f) Chill Touch: 1d6 energy Blast, NND vs power defense (+2), 15 active

(1f) Light: Images +1 PER vs Sight, only to create light (-1), 13 active

Cantrips are usable at will and require no END, but you can only use one at a time. They have a separate multipower from regular spells. As with other spells, silencing or restraining a wizard will prevent cantrip use.

 
In play, this is how it would work:
  • In the morning, the PC recovers his charges. He spends 5 minutes per spell to pre-cast spells, until he has used all his charges, selecting which spells will be pre-cast.
  • During the adventuring day, casting a spell is as simple as saying "I cast X" and taking a half phase action to discharge it. As each spell is used up, it cannot be re-used until the charge recovers the next morning.
  • If a player choose not to use all his charges in the morning, he can cast the spell at any time during the day by simply spending the 5 minute casting time, and can either use the spell immediately or hang it for later. That's all there is, its about as painless as FH magic gets.
  • Cantrips can be used at will.
  • House Rule: Normally all limitations apply at casting time, but a table rule for this system is that incantations and gestures and concentration apply at the time of release, allowing silence spells to be effective. The GM can tweak Hero as desired if he feels it is balanced and fun.
  • House Rule: Since spells are inherently limited by charges, Delayed Effect simply accepts that limit and no additional limit need be applied.
 
This construct can be adjusted a lot, but it is a starting point to show some ideas.
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"I'm trying to teach Fantasy Hero to new players who are familiar with D&D and Pathfinder, but little else. I want to show them how endlessly flexible Fantasy Hero is by comparison, precisely because it doesn't have classes, levels, pre-determined spells, etc."

 

 

If you want easy, and I'm a HUGE fan of easy, then you want a multipower.  

 

On reflection I actually think that we could all be satisfied with a combination of a VPP, a few creative limitations on the Control Pool, and all powers running off of a slowly recharge END Reserve.  

 

But one of the problems I have with VPPs isn't a problem with the VPP themselves, but lazy players who use having a VPP as an excuse for being able to do whatever they want whenever they want, and when you ask them how they're constructing their power they just shrug and say "It's a VPP.  I can fit this power in with enough disadvantages."

 

I've let a few of my Champions players run VPPs, but I make them write a "spell book" ahead of time with common power constructions that they plan to use.  In my experience most players just aren't familiar enough with the rules to build VPP powers "on the fly."  

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I would never allow on the fly VPP except in the most extreme, oh crap, these baddies weren't supposed to be this hard and I need the group to get out of this fight kind of circumstance. I don't want to have to judge a character build while we're trying to play. It's not fair to anyone. The VPP is advantage enough without adding that.

 

But I admit, I am lazy...

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"I'm trying to teach Fantasy Hero to new players who are familiar with D&D and Pathfinder, but little else. I want to show them how endlessly flexible Fantasy Hero is by comparison, precisely because it doesn't have classes, levels, pre-determined spells, etc."

 

 

If you want easy, and I'm a HUGE fan of easy, then you want a multipower.  

 

On reflection I actually think that we could all be satisfied with a combination of a VPP, a few creative limitations on the Control Pool, and all powers running off of a slowly recharge END Reserve.  

 

But one of the problems I have with VPPs isn't a problem with the VPP themselves, but lazy players who use having a VPP as an excuse for being able to do whatever they want whenever they want, and when you ask them how they're constructing their power they just shrug and say "It's a VPP.  I can fit this power in with enough disadvantages."

 

I've let a few of my Champions players run VPPs, but I make them write a "spell book" ahead of time with common power constructions that they plan to use.  In my experience most players just aren't familiar enough with the rules to build VPP powers "on the fly."  

I think one of the problems that others have with a VPP is that it allows starting characters a lot of spells.

 

For my part, I feel that if you force narrow subdivisions on what applies as a VPP for a certain type of magic, this mitigates that problem.

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"I think one of the problems that others have with a VPP is that it allows starting characters a lot of spells."

 

Well, now we're back to having to writing a sourcebook for your campaign, but try this:

 

Magic is a multipower.  In order for a PC to add a slot to their multipower they must know the "source code" for the spell they are trying to "learn."  To do this, they have to find, buy, or be given the spell formula.  

 

This is a way for GMs to limit the number of slots in a PC's multipower, and provides plot hooks for future adventures.  But it eliminates mages having to lug around bulky spell books because once they know a spell they don't have to re-memorize it again - It's a slot in their multipower for ever.

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Also, when I have my players build their mages, I assume they are going to power their spells off their regular END, just like fighters swinging their swords.  But there is another option....

 

Have the mage PCs buy an END battery with, say, a 50 point cap.  All their magic spells must run off that end battery.  Then have that battery recharge at a rate of 10 END per DAY.  

 

This allows mages to run lots of small spells that only burn a little END, or small spells that take up their WHOLE pool because they're built to cost zero END, or they could throw powerful KA-BOOM magic around for a few phases, and then be tapped out (except for their zero END spells, which can still be significant).  Even after the tapped out wizard rests he still can't throw around all that much Ka-Boom magic, at least not until after he rests for several days.

 

 

"A Balrog," muttered Gandalf. "Now I understand. What an evil fortune! And I am already weary."

 

A lot of people use the Long Term Endurance rule for magic. I will either do an Endurance Reserve with the Double Endurance Cost (6e1 206), or use LTE as a way to limit spell usage. 

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Copied from Alcamtar's post on page four of this thread:  http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94453-swap-in-replacement-for-dd-5e/page-4

 

Thanks for the footwork on this. My personal preference, however, is most definitely not Vancian magic. I'm trying to get away from that, in fact. But the more ideas, the better!

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"I'm trying to teach Fantasy Hero to new players who are familiar with D&D and Pathfinder, but little else. I want to show them how endlessly flexible Fantasy Hero is by comparison, precisely because it doesn't have classes, levels, pre-determined spells, etc."

 

 

If you want easy, and I'm a HUGE fan of easy, then you want a multipower.  

 

On reflection I actually think that we could all be satisfied with a combination of a VPP, a few creative limitations on the Control Pool, and all powers running off of a slowly recharge END Reserve.  

 

But one of the problems I have with VPPs isn't a problem with the VPP themselves, but lazy players who use having a VPP as an excuse for being able to do whatever they want whenever they want, and when you ask them how they're constructing their power they just shrug and say "It's a VPP.  I can fit this power in with enough disadvantages."

 

I've let a few of my Champions players run VPPs, but I make them write a "spell book" ahead of time with common power constructions that they plan to use.  In my experience most players just aren't familiar enough with the rules to build VPP powers "on the fly."  

 

This is exactly what I'm struggling with, on a few points. I like your ideas! The Control Cost seems to be the real factor that I need to focus on (hence the name, "control" cost, right?). I think I want a VPP connected to each school of magic, and each school of magic connected to the Hero System Grimoire. If each VPP is limited to only spells from each school of magic, that puts a natural limit on things. At least at first. My idea is that they will "learn" new spells as the campaign grinds on, and add them to their spellbook. But the VPP will be limited in such a way that the pool can only be rearranged after conferring the spellbook for a day. I think this would limit the "just the right spell" problem. They can change their VPP pool, but only with spells already known. 

 

I'd like to also include a mastery level, connected to how many Experience Points they've invested into their skills, that allows them to begin to modify their spells, or even invent new ones. My ideal here is to prevent the spell caster from "inventing whatever, whenever." I want some structure, and some limits, but the ability to eventually outgrow them with "expertise." The prepared spellbook is how to avoid the "flying blind" problem of VPPs in real time game play.

 

Thanks for your input!

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"I think one of the problems that others have with a VPP is that it allows starting characters a lot of spells."

 

Well, now we're back to having to writing a sourcebook for your campaign, but try this:

 

Magic is a multipower.  In order for a PC to add a slot to their multipower they must know the "source code" for the spell they are trying to "learn."  To do this, they have to find, buy, or be given the spell formula.  

 

This is a way for GMs to limit the number of slots in a PC's multipower, and provides plot hooks for future adventures.  But it eliminates mages having to lug around bulky spell books because once they know a spell they don't have to re-memorize it again - It's a slot in their multipower for ever.

 

My inclination is to say that what you say at the end is exactly the opposite of what I want. It's not a "memorization" thing that I'm promoting (I hate that part of D&D), but it is the idea that one must refresh one's memory when using "rusty" spells. Going with the "source code" example you give, I know that I have to look up the particulars in technical manuals all the time even though I already "know" what I'm doing. I'm trying to limit access to spells by suggesting that a wizard needs to refer back to the "bulky spell book" every now and then to remember the finer details of a little-used spell. In game terms, changing the VPP requires that the wizard spend time with the book to reallocate the pool.

 

I think what you point out about the Multipower is what I was both drawn to and recoiled from. I like the idea of "once you know it, you know it," (contra the Vancian magic paradox) in the slots of a Multipower. What I don't like is that once you know them, they are all available. I want some limits on how many spells can be recalled and used at any one time. I know a lot of stuff, for example, but I have to look to my books quite often to remember some of that stuff. I started this thread trying to find a way to limit the slots of a Multipower, and how many can be used at a time. I don't think there's a way to do this without a bunch of ground rules, which I'm trying to avoid. I could put the Lockout limitation on spells, or give an arbitrary number of slots available, or something like that. But it seems to mechanical.

 

The VPP seems to have the natural, organic limits in it that I want (the control cost), but if I want the wizard to have access to more than 2 spells, the pool needs to be big enough to allow for a group of spells. The limit on this, I think, would be a time limit to rearrange the spells (as I wrote earlier).

 

Again, thanks for your input!

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I think one of the problems that others have with a VPP is that it allows starting characters a lot of spells.

 

For my part, I feel that if you force narrow subdivisions on what applies as a VPP for a certain type of magic, this mitigates that problem.

 

Yes, yes, a thousand time yes! I think the pool is a way to control this, if paired intelligently with the control cost. My complaint was that the Multipower has a built-in limit on how many spells can be active at any one time, while the VPP does not. I like the idea of a Multipower, but the VPP fits more with what I want: a cap of how many Active Points  a spell can have, and how many spells can be fit into the pool. But the VPP potentially allows for all the spells to be active simultaneously. I think my best bet is to not focus on the spells themselves, but on the Endurance used by the spells. If I make the Endurance more precious, fewer spells can be maintained. I think it all works out in the wash with a VPP.

 

But, does anyone have any experience with a Skill-based magic system?

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Skill based systems are a lot of what the talk about a new kind of pool has been in the hero system forum thread on revamping the martial arts system.

 

Magic has often come up as something else that could benefit from such a pool.

 

Other than that, my knowledge on skill-based magic is limited.

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I forgot to mention something else about VPPs--they're hard to play. I ran a magic VPP character in Champions once, and building spells on the fly while playing out a combat was really, really hard. I finally wound up using some downtime to write up four pages of likely spells to choose from just so I wouldn't be stuck trying to build sticky AOE entangles between phase 9 and phase 12.

 

IOW I practically converted my VPP to a multipower just to make it easier to play. Depending on your players you may want to take this into account.

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Skill based systems are a lot of what the talk about a new kind of pool has been in the hero system forum thread on revamping the martial arts system.

 

Magic has often come up as something else that could benefit from such a pool.

 

Other than that, my knowledge on skill-based magic is limited.

Can you direct me to that thread?

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How do you keep the costs down for your spellcasters? Doesn't it get out of hand pretty quickly for a beginner?

 

Have you considered one of the Skill-based systems suggested in Fantasy Hero 6e?

I feel like the core rules already give the player plenty of ways to cut costs, so I guess the short answer is "I don't". A magic user should only be getting what they paid for, but they should also be able to leverage all applicable rules to make efficient characters. I don't mind if my magic using players know 10 or 20 spells that they paid for appropriately; so I don't consider that "Out of Hand". I generally encourage my players to select a theme when building a magic user; because I feel that a thematic magic user is more entertaining to play and easier to role play. I also carefully watch the Active Point values of magic in my campaigns:

 

In a campaign where the players play Standard Heroes (125+50 CP); an Apprentice (the starting level magic user) usually only has spells up to between 30 APs and 45 APs, this puts the raw power of their spells in roughly the same range as mundane weapons; a Longsword is 31 APs, and a Greatsword is 48 APs (FH 6th 190). An Adept might have spell between 60 and 75 APs, and a Master might have spells between 90 and 120 APs. I encourage players to buy Combat Skill Levels for their spells, and I usually assist them with calculating the effects of adding DCs to atypical powers (like Barrier) in advance so that it doesn't slow down the game, and so that they know how many CSLs they need to get a given end result.

My example "Apprentice Necromancer" (see above) was built on 200 CP. and only had a 30 point Multipower Reserve, his ​Necromantic Command Seal (Mind Link with Animated Skeletons) was built on 50 APs and is the most powerful spell he knows, his Wonderous Item was only built on a total of 35 APs, and was paid points for because it lacked the "Real Weapon" modifier, gave bonus PRE only to cause fear, and had an unusual modifier (Penetrating).

The Master necromancer that trained him is built on 800 CP, and has a 90 point Multipower Reserve (with many of the same spells, just more powerful versions); and was intended to be the main villain of a campaign arc for a party of experienced Standard Heroes. Their ​Necromantic Command Seal ​is only 60 APs (10 points higher than the apprentices'), but they also have more and better Wonderous Items (A ​Vorpal Bone Scythe, Skeletal Platemail, etc).

 

On the flipside, I encourage "martial" characters to purchase a Wonderous Item or two if they want them. If someone wants to begin the game with an iconic Vorpal Katana (HKA, Penetrating), Lightning-Swift Rapier (HKA, Autofire), or Cloak of Levitation​ (Flight) that is generally fine with me; it helps prevent issues where martials can't compete with the versatility of casters.

 

As a special note: I dislike skill roll based magic systems for two reasons: First, I feel like adding an extra set of rolls slows down gameplay. Second, I lost one of my favorite characters in a Turakian Age game because they failed an easy skill roll and died to a wall of arrows trap (the turakian age magic system gives players a cost dividend on magic if they accept the required limitations of the magic system, which included Requires A Roll with the roll based upon the school of magic). Call it a personal grudge.

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But the VPP potentially allows for all the spells to be active simultaneously.

You keep saying this and it keeps confusing me because I don't know why you say it.

 

If a character has a Variable Power Pool with a Pool cost of, say, 15, and works up 50 different possible spells for it, are you somehow under the impression the character can actually have all those spells active at once? Because that's not the case.

 

If one of the spells works out to a Real Cost of 15 and that spell active, guess how many spells the character can have running? One, and only that one.

 

If the character casts 3 spells that are ongoing and each has a Real Cost of 5, how many more spells can the character cast? ZERO. Until dropping one of those 3 active spells, no further spells will be possible.

 

The character could conceivably have up to 15 spells at a time - if they can all be bought at just 1 pt each, and even if they're that weak there can be no more than 15. You can change the Poll value up or down but wherever you set it, there's your limit. No Variable Power Pool allows potentially unlimited numbers of powers at one time - unless you literally invest infinite points.

 

Either I am somehow still not understanding what it is you are actually saying, which I concede is quite possible, or you have not yet understood that the Variable Power Pool does in fact already have what you call for, a "built in limit on how many spells can be active at any one time."

 

Unless you mean a limit to the absolute number of spells, like "only 5 spells no matter how strong or weak the spells themselves are" but in that case the Multipower also doesn't have such a limit so that doesn't make sense either. It's driving me bonkers trying to figure out what you are trying to say.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary can't make heads or heads out of it.

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Unless you mean a limit to the absolute number of spells, like "only 5 spells no matter how strong or weak the spells themselves are" but in that case the Multipower also doesn't have such a limit so that doesn't make sense either. It's driving me bonkers trying to figure out what you are trying to say.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary can't make heads or heads out of it.

 

I think maybe this is what I'm saying. I'll elaborate, but first, wouldn't your palindomedary be unable to make heads or heads out of it? Just curious.

 

 

If a character has a Variable Power Pool with a Pool cost of, say, 15, and works up 50 different possible spells for it, are you somehow under the impression the character can actually have all those spells active at once? Because that's not the case.

 

If one of the spells works out to a Real Cost of 15 and that spell active, guess how many spells the character can have running? One, and only that one.

 

If the character casts 3 spells that are ongoing and each has a Real Cost of 5, how many more spells can the character cast? ZERO. Until dropping one of those 3 active spells, no further spells will be possible.

 

The character could conceivably have up to 15 spells at a time - if they can all be bought at just 1 pt each, and even if they're that weak there can be no more than 15. You can change the Poll value up or down but wherever you set it, there's your limit. No Variable Power Pool allows potentially unlimited numbers of powers at one time - unless you literally invest infinite points.

 

So I think maybe I haven't clearly expressed myself. Sorry. But to use your example, a 15 point pool will have as many spells as whose Real Cost adds up to 15, right? So, as you say, there is a limit to how many spells one could have (1 15-point spell, 15 1-point spells, etc.). But if someone has 15 1-point spells, they could have them all active at once if they can pay the END, correct? Let's say the pool is larger (the number isn't important) and that a VPP could allow a character to have a number of spells that, say, give him a shield, a movement ability, an attack, invisibility, etc., all active at once if they are constant. The attack is the only one that may be instant, and could vary from phase to phase, but this isn't even always the case. A wizard could hold an opponent, cast a shield, drain the opponent, hit him with lighting, all in the space of 4 phases (as long as the Real Cost fits into the pool). This is what I see as potentially unbalancing if the pool isn't capped.

 

The Multipower could have a limitless number of spells, but only a few of them could be active up to the Reserve of the Multipower, correct?

 

So the Multipower has a restraint on what can be used at any one time (the spells' AP vs. Reserve), while the VPP has a restraint on what is available (the spells' RC vs. pool). The Multipower has no cap on each spell's AP other than the Reserve, while the VPP has the control cost to "cap" each spell.

 

So I'm seeing a potential problem with the VPP allowing too many spells available to "be active at once" versus the Multipower. That may not be the best way to express it, but I can't come up with a better way. The Multipower has the potential problem of allowing too many spells to choose from versus the VPP because there is no limit on the slots of a Multipower.

 

*One thing I may not have said yet is that I imagine the wizard being able to "buy up" the pool or reserve with experience points, which would simulate growing expertise.

 

I'm not sure if this sheds any light on any of this. As I said before, I came to realize there are practical limits in a VPP based on the END used for spells, so even though every spell in the pool could be active at once, it would be very short-lived based on natural END limits.

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Either I am somehow still not understanding what it is you are actually saying, which I concede is quite possible, or you have not yet understood that the Variable Power Pool does in fact already have what you call for, a "built in limit on how many spells can be active at any one time."

 

Unless you mean a limit to the absolute number of spells, like "only 5 spells no matter how strong or weak the spells themselves are" but in that case the Multipower also doesn't have such a limit so that doesn't make sense either. It's driving me bonkers trying to figure out what you are trying to say.

 

On further thought, let me step back and re-frame this. Maybe you'll detect where my error is if I break down my concerns. I'm looking for a way to balance magic with "normal" gameplay in a fantasy setting (the Holy Grail of fantasy gaming). I'm trying to find a way to:

  1. Limit the power of each spell for a beginner, which can be gradually raised over time with XP
  2. Limit the number of spells for a beginner, which can also be gradually raised over time with study, scavenging, collecting, or XP
  3. Relate the spells to a limited school of magic, connected to a spell book for each school. A wizard may know several schools, but they cannot be mixed and matched. Each book is discrete.
  4. All spells should not be all available all the time. There should be some sort of time constraint on how they are studied and prepared before an adventure that constrains just how many spells are available until the wizard can prepare different spells.
  5. None of this should be a Vancian arrangement. I want a more organic system.
  6. Do all of these without a lot of extra house rules that appear arbitrary or punitive: in other words, keep the meta-gaming to a minimum.
  7. Make it all understandable to beginners who have no idea what the hell any of this means.

So after reading, especially Fantasy Hero 6e, the power frameworks seem like the best way to approach this. Each power framework limits the AP available for spells (#1 above), but each also has a potentially unbalancing approach to the number of spells available (concern #2 above).

 

Multipower limits the AP based on the Reserve.

  1. Each Multipower represents the spellbook's collection of spells (slots).
  2. Each slot's AP cannot exceed the Reserve, so there's a limit for each spell.
  3. Even with variable slots (which I wouldn't initially allow anyway), a number of spells could be active simultaneously only as long as their total AP does not exceed the Reserve. So there's still a limit built into it.
  4. The Reserve can be initially set low for a beginner, and the reserve and the number of slots could grow over time with XP, study, collection, etc.
  5. So what is potentially unlimited is the number of slots in the Multipower. This is something I'm trying to figure out how to regulate without an arbitrary "you can only have x number of slots based on y rule or characteristic." Potentially, as you pointed out, a Multipower could have 20 slots, but there's still a limit to how many of them can be used at once. If the reserve is 50, then the total AP of all the slots cannot exceed 50, regardless of their Real Cost.
  6. Even if several slots were available, their total AP would be 50, and therefore only 5 END would be used for them if they were all active at once, the same as if only 1 slot at 50 AP were used.
  7. The rules make it a zero phase action to reallocate the slots. I'd like to make this take time so all the slots are not available from phase to phase (another potentially unbalancing problem from concern #4 above).
  8. The other problem is that, without a cap on how many slots are available, how does one control the number of spell slots available in a Multipower without setting an arbitrary limit (concern #6 above)?
  9. Conversely, another problem is that a low Reserve could make it so that too few spells are available. You could raise the Reserve to accommodate more spells, but then spell inflation may happen unless there is some outside rule added to cap the AP of each spell (similar to the control cost of the VPP), but this adds the arbitrariness of the house rules (concern #6 again).

Variable Power Pool has two limits: the control cost with limits the AP in each spell, and the pool, which limits how many spells are actually available to use. So far so good.

  1. Each VPP represents a spellbook, as above. 
  2. The pool and the control cost can each be initially set low for beginners, and potentially be bought up for each school of spells through XP.
  3. There is a potentially unbalancing problem with how many spells are available for filling the pool when the pool is reallocated (In other words, what limits are there to what can be created for the pool, which is concern #4 above). The obvious solution is to limit reallocation to only spells that have been collected or possibly created/adjusted by an experienced wizard ahead of time in the spellbook. Problem solved here.
  4. The other potential problem (also #4 above) is that a VPP could potentially have a greater number of spells in the pool available to use simultaneously because there is no constraint on their combined AP, only on the total Real Cost of the spells in the pool. So if the pool is 50 and the control cost is 40, the spells could be limited in such a way as each spell could have 40 AP, but a low Real Cost, and therefore make many stronger spells (for a beginner) available to use simultaneously (see my previous post on this). If each spell has, say, a total of -3 limitations, the wizard could have 5 spells of 40 AP, each with a Real Cost of 10 each (filling the 50 point pool), and all 5 could potentially be active at once. The potential total AP of the spells being used simultaneously then could be 200 AP, unlike the Multipower, which is limited at 50 AP total in the analogous example above.
  5. There is, however, a built in solution that I was not seeing before: if all 5 spells of 40 AP were simultaneously active, that would be 20 END cost per phase! Problem solved, since this simply can't be maintained. A natural limit has been found (concern #6 above).
  6. The spells could be reallocated, but there would be a time limit on how and when this can be done, so no readjustment on the fly to create just the right spell available at just the right time (concern #4 above). Characters would be limited by what's in their book, or potentially what they have created with the Invention Skill later in the campaign as they become more experienced and reach "mastery" (maybe through XP expenditure or something, although this is concern #6 above).

This may just be my paranoia at work here, or it may be because of all the munchkins I've played with in the past, but I want to try to head off the abuse before it begins, and do it within the rules as much as possible without arbitrary limits (concern #6 above). But it also all runs the risk of violating concern #7 above: make it easy to understand!

 

In all of this talking I think I have settled on the VPP again (my original inclination). I was curious about trying out a Multipower system, but it seems to introduce more concerns for me than it solves. So in all reality this is all just an academic exercise.

 

Does this clarify what I was trying to say, Lucius?

 

If you've made it this far, congratulations! All comments are welcome!

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In 6e the maximum Active Points for any individual slot and the maximum Real Points total active do not have to be equal as they did in previous editions.  It is very easy to set a VPP up in 6e where only 1* slot with 60 Active can be used at any one time. It's also quite easy to to create a VPP where the opposite is true - no single slot can have more than 30 Active but have several slots available at one time. 

 

The keys to making a balanced and easy to use VPP are having a clear concept of what you want to simulate up front and customizing the framework to fit that concept.  In the case of my earlier Utility Belt example I decided early on that it made sense that Batman could use 2 different slot/items simultaneously (ex: Batarangs and Batlines) but it's simple to change it to just 1 slot/item at a time and would save 15 points.  Having pre-built slots as is another.

 

For apple to apples comparison sake, it is also possible to create a Multipower where the Reserve is larger than the maximum Active Points of any single slot.  There is no Limitation on the Reserve for this, it's just a way of constructing the entire framework (5e example).

 

:)

HM

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Can you direct me to that thread?

I'll copy the notes on the pool from there, the thread is a bit long, and most of it doesn't relate to that. Give me a bit of time, I've been meaning to copy those to my notes anyway. The main idea for the pool was a pool that enabled skills that worked at the level of a power, but, if done under the current rules, made it cost prohibitive compared to the actual game effect.

 

So, for example, Batman's street detective skills. Done under the current approach, starting Batman pays heavily for a set of related skills that don't actually have that profound of game effects.

 

The pool, like VPPs, would have to have a defined theme. Street Detective, Martial Artist(this would bypass the martial arts system, and maneuvers would be built as powers), World Renowned Super Scientist(Richard Reed, Bruce Banner, Viktor Von Doom, etc.).

 

We haven't gotten to a point of defining what discount the pool would give, the agreement seems to be that it shouldn't be a huge cost break, but more modest than other pools.

 

Another aspect that has been talked about, if I recall correctly this came from the influence of making it useful for magic, but which I found potentially useful for martial arts as well, was the idea of incremental gains. Not levels per se, but that higher powered things must have lower powered and related items bought first. If you can't produce fire, you can't make a fireball, as an oversimplified example.

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In 6e the maximum Active Points for any individual slot and the maximum Real Points total active do not have to be equal as they did in previous editions.  It is very easy to set a VPP up in 6e where only 1* slot with 60 Active can be used at any one time. It's also quite easy to to create a VPP where the opposite is true - no single slot can have more than 30 Active but have several slots available at one time. 

 

It's interesting you bring that up. There may be something kicking around in my memory from the old Multipower rules and the relation of AP and RP. I was a wiz at this stuff in the '80s, but I'm plenty rusty now and am trying to relearn things in 6e. Everything seems familiar and different at the same time. Regardless, that distinction actually would make some sense as a house rule in order to limit the number of slots.

 

 

For apple to apples comparison sake, it is also possible to create a Multipower where the Reserve is larger than the maximum Active Points of any single slot.  There is no Limitation on the Reserve for this, it's just a way of constructing the entire framework (5e example).

 

 

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting another house rule, or perhaps a -0 Limitation, that puts a cap on the AP for any slot in the Multipower?

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"Let's say the pool is larger (the number isn't important) and that a VPP could allow a character to have a number of spells that, say, give him a shield, a movement ability, an attack, invisibility, etc., all active at once if they are constant."

 

Well, the short answer is "Yes, and CAN have all those powers active at once."  But to have all those powers active at the same time they would each have to be so small that they are, in practice, utterly ineffective.

 

Going back to the earlier example of the man-at-arms in a dust-up with Mr. Mega Mage - Like I said before, the man-at-arms has his sword, his STR, his Combat Skill Levels, and his Advantages.  Roll all those together and the well constructed melee specialist should be swinging 3d6 HtH RKA.  That's 45 active points.  So using that as a guide, I allow my mage PCs a pool of 45 active points as well for their magic powers.  

 

If we assume that's a 45 pip VPP, and for sake of simplicity we do Mystic Blast (an attack power), Wings of Mana (a movement power), and Sorcerer's Shield (a defense).  Well, it's likely that your defense spell will offer the same, or less, rPD & rED than the man-at-arms's chain mail hauberk, the Flight you buy will be less than the man-at-arms's base Running plus whatever extra he buys, and your Mystic Blast won't penetrate that chain mail hauberk that the man-at-arms is wearing.

 

"No problem," says the mage.  "I'll reshuffle my VPP on the fly into a the Magical Mega Ka-Boom and drop this chump."  Well, if you bought your VPP with Requires a Skill Roll to Change then that comes with a penalty of -1 for every 10 active points.  That's -4 for a 45 point power.  With an INT of 15 and 3 points in the Magic skill, Mr. Mega Mage would have to roll an 8 or less on 3d6 to pull that particular rabbit out of his, um, hat.  

 

That thing you fear just isn't quite the boogyman you make it out to be.  And the level of complication that VPPs add to an already complicated game...  IIRC you said you were trying to make things easy for new players.  I don't feel like this is it.

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I may be misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting another house rule, or perhaps a -0 Limitation, that puts a cap on the AP for any slot in the Multipower?

 

This is a standard feature of multipowers, or it used to be.  There's no reason you have to buy a multipower slot to the full AP available in the pool--but it's usually stupid not to since you're getting an 80% or 90% discount on the slot.

 

There also used to be a limit to the number of spells a caster could have running at once, typically INT/5.  Again this rarely matters since you rarely need to have more than attack, defense, and movement going at any particular time, and people rarely play stupid spellcasters.

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