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Please help a newbie figuring what the attributes are all about


VRossi

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Hi guys, first time poster and first time reading the books. One friend of mine has this game, Hero 6th Core Book I & II, but, since he doesn't like to GM, it was sitting on his desk for a time. As he knows that I do like to GM, and like to learn new rules, he borrowed me the books for a week for me to see if our party would like to play with it.

Since I only got the book yesterday, I did not had the time to give more than a precursory read on it, but one thing caught my attention: what are the attributes for? I mean things like Body, Presence, Strenght... I noted that their "rolls" are at 9+(attribute/5), and they do not increase or decrease skill rolls; also, they do not directly modify things like "hit points", chance to hit or be hit in combat, and the like. I come from a Gurps background, so maybe I'm seeing it the wrong way, but it seems to me that there is no reason to have an attribute that is not a multiple of 5, and, even then, they are not that helpful statistically, barring for fitting a character concept.

As I said before, I can't see no benefit for a warrior to have Strength 17 instead of 15, and that you can be very agile and yet it do not help on your chance to avoid attacks.

 

What am I missing here?

 

Thanks, and sorry for any errors on my writing, english is not my primary language (and can be a source of my confusion regarding the rules...)

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Some of the attributes only affect rolls such as Intelligence, but others have more significant effects.

 

Strength: lists how much you can lift as well as how hard you hit (Strength/5 is your base physical damage with a punch). See the chart on page 43 of the 1st volume for details on lift and punch.

Dexterity: decides who goes first if two people have the same speed rating.  So if you and Critical Bob both act on segment 4, then the one with the higher Dexterity acts first.

Constitution: If you take stun damage through your defenses, and it exceeds your CON total, you are stunned for a phase, and must recover.

Ego: This may be used in most circumstances for defense against presence attacks (see below).

Presence: You can do a "presence attack" with presence, sort of an attack on the target's spirit or courage.  For every 5 points of presence, you roll a base 1d6, and add for circumstances such as a great soliloquy, or violent action, situation, etc.  That total is compared to the target's presence, and it can make targets hesitate, lose a half phase action, be rallied, or regain courage, depending on your intent (cheer up or intimidate) and the roll.  If someone uses a presence attack against you, its compared against either your presence, or ego, whichever is higher (the GM may decide a certain kind does not allow you to use your ego for defense).

 

The other stats (PD, ED, REC, END, STN, BODY, SPEED) are only used for combat purposes and have no roll associate with them.

 

All of the first seven stats are used as the base for various skill rolls.

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The of the "Primary" characteristics (STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO, & PRE), three of them do modify your skill rolls. DEX modifies Agility Rolls, INT modifies Intellect Rolls, and PRE modifies Interaction Rolls. In addition, the GM can call on players to make direct Characteristic Rolls for any number of purposes. The most common of which being EGO Rolls, which players are called upon to make to resist Psychological Complications or to retain control of Summoned beings. Because of this game's rules for rounding, the actual break points for bonuses to Rolls are at 3, 8, 13, 18, 23, etc.

 

BODY & STUN are this system's version of Hit Points. BODY is lost when you suffer potentially Lethal injuries, and STUN is lost when you suffer Nonlethal injuries.

 

In editions past, all of the "Secondary" characteristics (such as OCV, DCV, BODY, STUN, etc) were not only figured based on your primary characteristics, but could also be raised separately. In my opinion this made the math for characteristics much harder to calculate. That was changed in 6th edition. Coming from other systems it may seem a little strange that your DEX doesn't also make you harder to hit, but within the bounds of this system it actually makes a fair bit of sense. HERO is about being able to play "anything"... For example, it is entirely reasonable to imagine a person who is very good at Skills such as Acrobatics, Lockpicking, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth (all Agility Skills based upon your DEX), but has never actually been in a fight before, and therefore isn't good at dodging or throwing a punch.

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I have a document called How to Play HERO System here, which explains in some detail Characteristics, Skills, Talents, Powers, and Complications, as well as a bit on how combat works.  The page number references are based on Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete; I don't have my books in front of me, and am going to be hugely busy in the next few weeks, but if others want to add comments with the correct page numbers for the 6E core books I'd appreciate it.  

 

The issue of breakpoints that you mention (3, 8, 13, 18, etc.) is a good one, and in fact an early edition supplement to the game advised taking advantage of those.  There's no reason not to, really.  However, the unmodified values of DEX, CON, EGO, and PRE can all have game effects, and STR generates hand-to-hand damage in even multiples of 5.  For instance, in combat, when multiple people go in a Phase, they go in order of DEX from high to low.  Taking that extra point of DEX can let you go before everyone else who took advantage of the breakpoint.  One extra point of CON could mean the difference between whether or not you're Stunned.  EGO for Mental Powers and PRE for Presence Attacks.  

 

Most of the Skills are DEX, INT, or PRE-based, and the related Skill values are based on those Characteristic Rolls; for 3 points you get a base roll in the Skill equal to 9 + (Characteristic/5).  As Cantriped mentioned, the Characteristic Rolls can sometimes act as resistance rolls, "saving throws" (though they're not called that), and so forth.  

 

If you have more questions, feel free to ask.  We're pretty friendly here.  :)  

 

Welcome to the HERO System!

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WRT Strength: in a Heroic level game, most (and even some in higher powered games) muscle-powered weapons will have a "Strength Minimum". Having STR greater than the STRMin for the weapon you're using in multiples of 5 gets you extra damage, but the STRMins are an arbitrary number, so if you're using a weapon with STRMin 6, having STR 11 is a "breakpoint".

 

Many systems have Characteristic breakpoints like this; the recent incarnations of DnD just had breakpoints every other number, rather than "at the round-up point of 5 more". And for all of these, having a characteristic in between the break points makes the next higher break point closer for character development.

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In the old days, pre-6th edition, some characteristics affected others. Buying a higher Str would also increase your Stun. Buying a higher Dex would increase your OCV and DCV, as well as your Speed. So if you look at older character sheets, often they'll have some statistics that are oddly high, for no explanation. The reason is because of the boost you got to secondary characteristics.

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Yes. that was the problem with the characteristics modifying the 'figured' stats like STUN, END, etc. For example, if you wanted to make a tough character, the cheapest way to do that was to make your character strong. The bonuses you got from having a high STR were worth more than the STR itself. So if you wanted to be tough, you were strong. In addition, every champions character was an olympic or even superhuman gymnast, simply because DEX determined your OCV and DCV. So even the bricks had to have high DEX. In 6th edition, concepts like the clumsy brick and the tough guy who isn't also very strong are now possible without cripping your character.

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is no reason to have it at values others than 3, 8, 13, 18, 23...?

 

With some like Strength, it directly affects things you can lift: 23 strength isn't as strong as 24 for example.

In Dexterity, 19 DEX goes before 18, so its a slight advantage.

For Ego and Presence, it directly protects you from presence attacks and for Ego, from mental attacks (I left that off by accident; many mental attacks go by levels of effect based off of Ego).

For CON each point gives you more protection from being stunned

 

For others, its just a role playing thing: I have 14 Intelligence not 13, darn it!!

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Well, unfortunatelly these break points on attributes are kind of a big deal for us. We tried Runequest before, and none of us liked the "gaps" between the attribute scores, and in Runequest it is lesser evident than in Hero.

I saw that there are some rules for improving the "participation" of the attributes on skills, but using something like 7+(Attribute/2) would seriously unbalance the game for a fantasy setting on 175 character points? There is other rules that help making the attributes more impacting on the character statistics?

Thanks again.

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If you're looking at a fantasy game, you'll likely be working within Normal Characteristic Maxima, which are listed in the book.  20 for the Primary Characteristics, various levels for the others.  That will help some with keeping Skill values manageable, but that will likely exacerbate the breakpoints problem for you.  You could vary it somewhat by race; the usual rule of thumb is that for every point you increase one maximum, you should decrease another by the same number of points, so for instance Elves might have maximum Strength 16, Dexterity 22.  

 

I'd recommend trying the game as written before figuring out which parts you like and which you want to house rule.  You could write up a few low point characters and run a short scenario with a few skill challenges leading into combat.  There's also a few podcasts out on the web with people learning the HERO System by running games, which should prove helpful as well.

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Well, unfortunatelly these break points on attributes are kind of a big deal for us. We tried Runequest before, and none of us liked the "gaps" between the attribute scores, and in Runequest it is lesser evident than in Hero.

I saw that there are some rules for improving the "participation" of the attributes on skills, but using something like 7+(Attribute/2) would seriously unbalance the game for a fantasy setting on 175 character points? There is other rules that help making the attributes more impacting on the character statistics?

Thanks again.

 

That would give a normal person a 12- on most skills.  And you'd rapidly get into higher skill rolls as well.  A guy with an 18 Dex (currently 13- skill roll) would have a base 16- skill roll.  That's a very large change.  It also would affect the cost of skill levels.  I'd say don't make that change.

 

 

Now, with a fantasy game, the break points are going to be a bit different because of how weapons function.  Most fantasy weapons have a Str Minimum (basically they're kinda heavy), and if you don't have that much Str, you don't get full damage.  So it's very possible that having a 17 Str would be desirable, whereas normally those 2 extra points over 15 don't give you squat.

 

Let's say your character, Ragnar the Fighter, is carrying around an Orcish Broadglaive (or something, I'm making this weapon up).  It does 1 1/2D6 killing, and gives you a +1 to block rolls.  I've been watching Star Trek lately, so we'll say it looks like a Klingon Bat'leth.  In my imagination, it has a Str minimum of 12.  If Ragnar has an 11 Str, he's going to take a penalty to use the weapon.  Now a 12 Str doesn't really give you anything, except the ability to use that weapon with no penalty.  Likewise, a 15 Str (where you first get 3D6 punch damage) is a normal break point for people, but Ragnar probably wants to spend an extra 2 points to get to 17 Str, so he will have 5 more Str than the Bat'leth's minimum and he can add +1 DC to the attack (raising it to 2D6 killing).  So for him (and most everyone else, since they'll all be using different weapons), it makes a lot of sense to buy up your Str to a non-standard break point, based on which weapon you decide to use.  Someone who uses a short sword will have different break points than someone who is using a poleaxe.

 

Now, in older editions, you wanted to buy Dex and Con to certain levels (Dex at multiples of 3 minus 1 (i.e., 17, 20, 23), to maximize your OCV/DCV, and Con to numbers ending in 3s and 8s) to hit break points for figured characteristics.  Today, Con is just for resisting being Stunned (I don't even think it affects skills), so having a 14 Con is basically always worth it over a 13.  And while Dex affects a lot of skill rolls, the guy with the 19 Dex has a big advantage over the guy with the 18, because he goes first.  It's often worth the 2 points.

 

In 6th edition, incremental increases are often worth it.  The only one where it really doesn't matter much at all is Int.

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With some like Strength, it directly affects things you can lift: 23 strength isn't as strong as 24 for example.

In Dexterity, 19 DEX goes before 18, so its a slight advantage.

For Ego and Presence, it directly protects you from presence attacks and for Ego, from mental attacks (I left that off by accident; many mental attacks go by levels of effect based off of Ego).

For CON each point gives you more protection from being stunned

 

For others, its just a role playing thing: I have 14 Intelligence not 13, darn it!!

As has been pointed out, for most Characteristics, every point DOES count - just not necessarily for rolls. The one exception I can think of is INT. And there's a fix for that. ...

 

Well, unfortunatelly these break points on attributes are kind of a big deal for us. We tried Runequest before, and none of us liked the "gaps" between the attribute scores, and in Runequest it is lesser evident than in Hero.

I saw that there are some rules for improving the "participation" of the attributes on skills, but using something like 7+(Attribute/2) would seriously unbalance the game for a fantasy setting on 175 character points? There is other rules that help making the attributes more impacting on the character statistics?

Thanks again.

There is another optional rule you can use that makes every point of INT potentially count, and the same for other Characteristics used for rolls.

 

If a player misses roll by 1 pts, and has a Characteristic over the breakpoint, roll 1d6 against the amount the breakpoint is exceeded by. So if you fail by one point on a roll based on INT such as Perception and

 

you have INT 14 - you succeed on a 1 on 1d6

you have INT 15 - you succeed on a 1-2 on 1d6

you have INT 16 - you succeed on a 1-3 on 1d6

you have INT 17 - you succeed on a 1-4 on 1d6

 

edit: just to be clear, you can of course use this rule for every Characteristics that has an associated roll, not just for INT! I just focused on INT because it's the only one for which your assertion about "gaps" is usually true.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Succeeding on a palindromedary

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, the use of an extra d6 with a 1 in 6 success chance on a failure has been noted above, and that helps a lot of stats.

 

You can also note or change the following:

 

STR gets extra lift, and encumbrance. You can also say that, for every point above a 5 point breakpoint (ie above 1d6 HTH with a 3.5 average) you get:

 

- +1 = +1/2d6-1, no minimum (average 0.5 damage)

- +2 = 1/2d6-1, no minimum (average 1 damage)

- +3 = 1/2d6 (already the rule; average 2 damage)

- +4 = 1d6-1, min 1 (average 2 2/3 damage)

 

DEX already has initiative, plus rolls.

 

CON defends against being Stunned so each point is already valuable.

 

BOD defends against death so each point is already valuable.

 

INT gets the characteristic rolls, which is all it's used for.

 

EGO gets rolls, plus is already useful point for point due to Mental Powers.

 

PRE gets skill rolls and STR damage, and is already useful defending against PRE attacks.

 

PD, ED, SPD, REC, STUN, END, OCV, DCV, mOCV and mDCV already work point for point.

 

Note that INT is the only stat which does not already have a use for each point purchased.

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Maybe not quite as common as the others, but something. In a Fantasy game, INT could be used for # of spells active at a time (1:1 seems like a lot, but one could at least create added breakpoints with 1:2, 1:3 or 1:4). Depending on the magic system, it could also be used for "spells known", if they are not each acquired with points, or max spell AP could be a multiple of INT.

 

Using it to break ties in initiative order also makes a lot of sense, for a 1 point gradation everyone would benefit from.

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Another possibility, if the lack of granularity is that troubling, is to go the "DC Heroes" route. Characteristics are a base of 2, cost 5 times as much, and every point has the impact 5 points have now. d20 could have done the same thing by halving all stats....

... and making the Stat Modifier "Stat minus 5" But then the restriction on max castable spell level (Stat >= [10+Spell Level]) wouldn't have worked. And chopping the Hero system down so would erode the StrMax mechanic as a way of differentiating between weapons, in settings where StrMin is widely used; what you gain on the "no (apparently) useless levels of Stat" swings, you lose on the "fine grain permitting subtle distinction" roundabouts.

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... and making the Stat Modifier "Stat minus 5" But then the restriction on max castable spell level (Stat >= [10+Spell Level]) wouldn't have worked. And chopping the Hero system down so would erode the StrMax mechanic as a way of differentiating between weapons, in settings where StrMin is widely used; what you gain on the "no (apparently) useless levels of Stat" swings, you lose on the "fine grain permitting subtle distinction" roundabouts.

I'm not recommending it (or recommending against it). I did not much like it in DC Heroes either. However, this is one approach to making each point in a stat count for more. Given the ease with which we can make every point count already (and, for most, every point has some impact, however minor, already), I don't consider it the optimal solution.

 

Really, it obtains "more granularity" in the sense that every point counts for more, by reducing granularity (in that there are fewer points along the continuum).

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