Defenses in Multipower

[Lollypopalopicus]

So, I have a question about this. Barring G.M. intervention, why would you ever not put resistant P.D. and E.D in a multipower together? They definitely similar enough to be considered viable for a multipower concept (rock character's tough body, flame character less tangible and more resistant to energy, etc.). Yet so often I see characters examples paying full price for both.

 

I see the Defense Powers section in 6E1 using Resistant P.D./E.D. in a multipower, and have found nothing to the contrary as yet. Am I missing something, or is this purely meant for game balancing reasons?

[Hyper-Man]

I am not sure that I understand your question.  If it is "Is it legal to put Defenses in a Framework?" then the answer is yes.

 

Whether the PD and ED are noted separately really only makes a difference in a Multipower IF the slots are Fixed or Variable.  See the following examples for an illustration of this.

 

60    Example 1: Multipower, 60-point reserve
6f    1)  Resistant Protection (20 PD/20 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=0
     
60    Example 2: Multipower, 60-point reserve
3f    1)  Resistant Protection (20 ED) (30 Active Points) - END=0
3f    2)  Resistant Protection (20 PD) (30 Active Points) - END=0
     
60    Example 3: Multipower, 60-point reserve
12v    1)  Resistant Protection (40 PD) (60 Active Points) - END=0
12v    2)  Resistant Protection (40 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=0
     
60    Example 4: Multipower, 60-point reserve
6f    1)  Resistant Protection (16 PD/16 ED), Allocatable (Allocatable Resistant Protection can have its points of defense re-allocated in  any way, without changing its maximum or adding new categories of defense.; +1/4) (60 Active Points) - END=0
     

HM

[TheDarkness]

I think the question is, if it is legal, then why not always put them in there for the discount? And I'm assuming the answer would be the pool cost would negate the savings unless there were more that could be fit in the multipower. And if there are, then you run into figuring out if they are always going to be on, or if it's like Ultra Boy, and you have to choose to turn on your defenses and use the pool for it.

[Lucius]

So, I have a question about this. Barring G.M. intervention, why would you ever not put resistant P.D. and E.D in a multipower together? They definitely similar enough to be considered viable for a multipower concept (rock character's tough body, flame character less tangible and more resistant to energy, etc.). Yet so often I see characters examples paying full price for both.

 

I see the Defense Powers section in 6E1 using Resistant P.D./E.D. in a multipower, and have found nothing to the contrary as yet. Am I missing something, or is this purely meant for game balancing reasons?

I'll give you two good reasons not to put defenses in a multipower.

 

Say a character does do exactly that. XX PD in one slot, XX ED in another.

 

Now MDM (Multipower Defense Man)(for our purposes you could be either the living flame guy or the rocky guy, imagine either.) is about to fight with Big Bad Blaster and Big Bad Brick. BB Brick is about to wallop MDM, so he puts his multipower into Physical Defense. There! Now he can stand up to BB Brick's punch!

 

But BB Blaster standing over there zaps MDM with his Big Bad Blast and blows him back. That slot with XX ED didn't help at all - because all the multipower points were put into the OTHER slot.

 

REASON ONE: If you have a defense, you probably want it to actually defend you, preferably when you need it, which is not always when you expect to need it. A defense in a multipower is not actually a useful defense at least part of the time.

 

This knocked MDM back and knocked him down, but by the time he gets up again BB Brick is up close. MDM Doesn't want to get zapped again, so he shifts the multipower and put all the points in the ED slot. Now BB Blaster's Big Bad Blast just bounces! But then BB Brick hits MDM and He goes flying again - because the PD slot is now useless.

 

BB Brick comes over and picks up the barely conscious MDM and props him against a wall. BB Blaster comes zipping over (he can zip as well as zap) and looks at MDM curiously.

 

"Now Look" says BB Brick, "Because you have a body that's (made of flame/made of rock/insert whatever here) it makes sense I could hit you and you barely feel it. And it makes sense you could stand up to the Big Bad Blast too. But what sense does it make if I hit you and you shrug it off and I hit you again without hitting any harder and you just crumple? Or that the first time my partner hits you, you go flying, but the second time, you no-sell it?"

 

REASON TWO: While there are some characters for which it WOULD make sense, for the vast majority it makes no sense whatsoever for their defenses to work this way.

 

"We'd like to beat you senseless" says BB Blaster, "But you ALREADY don't make any sense, so I don't know how we're going to know when to stop."

 

"Uh we can stop now guys" says MDM, "In fact, can we try this again after I've had a chance to re-write my character sheet?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks Multipower Defense Man also needs to change their name after changing their powers.

[TheDarkness]

Actually, I could see it being fun to make a character whose defenses run a gamut. PD, ED, MD, immaterial, figure some others.

 

Then, in the scenario above, he could go immaterial.

 

Maybe give him an attack power that is powered off of incoming attacks, so he needs to get attacked.

 

The Passive Aggressor

[Lucius]

Actually, I could see it being fun to make a character whose defenses run a gamut. PD, ED, immaterial, figure some others.

 

Then, in the scenario above, he could go immaterial.

I'm not saying it NEVER makes sense. I'm saying it usually doesn't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A palindromedary tagline in a Lucius Alexander post always makes sense

[TheDarkness]

I'm not saying it NEVER makes sense. I'm saying it usually doesn't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A palindromedary tagline in a Lucius Alexander post always makes sense

Oh, I know, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just building in my head out loud like a crazy person.

[massey]

So, I have a question about this. Barring G.M. intervention, why would you ever not put resistant P.D. and E.D in a multipower together? They definitely similar enough to be considered viable for a multipower concept (rock character's tough body, flame character less tangible and more resistant to energy, etc.). Yet so often I see characters examples paying full price for both.

 

I see the Defense Powers section in 6E1 using Resistant P.D./E.D. in a multipower, and have found nothing to the contrary as yet. Am I missing something, or is this purely meant for game balancing reasons?

Because it really sucks when you fight a character who has both a physical attack and an energy attack.

 

Magnetic Boy can shoot you with an EM blast (energy) or throw a car at you (physical).

 

Superguy can punch you with his super strength (physical) or shoot you with his heat vision (energy).

 

If your defenses are in a multipower, you're in a guessing game with your opponent and you just hope you guess right.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like the concept of a Ultraboy type character (one superman power at a time) defense suite.  As a GM I'd allow someone to have higher than campaign limits because; one at a time.

[Matt the Bruins]

It even works for Superman himself, since you often see him getting affected/flung back a bit by an unexpectedly powerful punch or energy blast, then steeling himself and shrugging the next one off. Presumably however his powers work, they can be optimized defensively with an act of will.

[Tom Cowan]

It even works for Superman himself, since you often see him getting affected/flung back a bit by an unexpectedly powerful punch or energy blast, then steeling himself and shrugging the next one off. Presumably however his powers work, they can be optimized defensively with an act of will.

or knockback resistances is in a MP

[Hugh Neilson]

or knockback resistances is in a MP

Or just Bracing with STR and/or flight.

[Hyper-Man]

It even works for Superman himself, since you often see him getting affected/flung back a bit by an unexpectedly powerful punch or energy blast, then steeling himself and shrugging the next one off. Presumably however his powers work, they can be optimized defensively with an act of will.

 

This is how I've modeled his powers.

 

or knockback resistances is in a MP

 

Because KB Resistance is considered a Special Power it is not legal per RAW (rules as written) to be included in a Framework.

 

Or just Bracing with STR and/or flight.

 

Other options include using Density Increase (that isn't necessarily based on a 'density special effect'), Damage Negation (since it reduces the number of damage dice it also effectively reduces Knockback) and a Self-Only Barrier (the 6e version of Force Wall that also effectively functions as KB Resistance).

 

HM

[Crusher Bob]

The other reason you normally don't see 'really high' defenses in a slot in a multipower is because of campaign limits. In Hero, points aren't really a good limiter of character ability. You can get the ability to destroy all life on earth for quite cheap in real points. I'd guess 25 or so real points would do the job. So a proper Hero campaign design document contains a list of active point limits, and then a way to force you to trade off different amounts of DC/CV/Def/SPD or people who are good at character generation can just meet all of the caps. Of course, doing things like that really really more the sign of a bad player, but a good campaign document should head off most problems like that.

[Tasha]

I think the question is, if it is legal, then why not always put them in there for the discount? And I'm assuming the answer would be the pool cost would negate the savings unless there were more that could be fit in the multipower. And if there are, then you run into figuring out if they are always going to be on, or if it's like Ultra Boy, and you have to choose to turn on your defenses and use the pool for it.

Because if you put too many powers that need to be active at the same time you negate the savings that the Multipower gives you. Because you need enough pool cost to run all of the powers you want active.

 

It CAN be interesting to put SOME Defenses in a Multislot which would allow the PC to go all out defenses by making their attacks weaker.

[DasBroot]

It CAN be interesting to put SOME Defenses in a Multislot which would allow the PC to go all out defenses by making their attacks weaker.

 

Yes indeed.  The "Divert auxiliary power to the shields!" approach.

 

If you have a really high initiative that can work.  Otherwise, if I'm not mistaken, you get 'stuck' with the shields up because as soon as you gain benefit from the pool power in a phase you can't change it with your action.

 

I have played characters with defences in MP - but the other powers in the pool with it tend to be thematically related non-combat powers. One of my player's character has an electrical manipulation MP that provides them with PD/ED with an electrical shield but it can also be used to power a city block (now that was a fun power to create) or cause a blackout  - deliberately (The character already kills nearby iPhones on a regular basis just by using her powers as a Side Effect).

[Christopher]

So, I have a question about this. Barring G.M. intervention, why would you ever not put resistant P.D. and E.D in a multipower together? They definitely similar enough to be considered viable for a multipower concept (rock character's tough body, flame character less tangible and more resistant to energy, etc.). Yet so often I see characters examples paying full price for both.

 

I see the Defense Powers section in 6E1 using Resistant P.D./E.D. in a multipower, and have found nothing to the contrary as yet. Am I missing something, or is this purely meant for game balancing reasons?

Yes, it is legal to put your Defense Powers into a Multipower (the rare defenses that count as Special Powers excluded[with a possible exception if you buy them Resistant]).

However, it is not wise:

- While switching Slots in a Multipower is a action that takes no time, you still can only do it once per phase. I am not sure if you could do it after an attack (asuming you switched slots last phase).

- You can abort (in the next segment) after an attack. And while aborting your action, you can flip and activate the MP Powers again. But that costs you an abort so it is not realy a valid tactic if you want to save points.

- If you plan on having the powers always selected - then what exactly do you save?

In order to have 10 AP of Defense Powers active, you need a 10 point higher reserve then you would without that power. Or 10 points less of other powers selected. PLUS the 2/4 Points for having that Defense Power slot. Even if you put a -1/2 Limitation on the MP reserve, that is still 7+2 = 9 points paid.

[Tasha]

Yes indeed.  The "Divert auxiliary power to the shields!" approach.

 

If you have a really high initiative that can work.  Otherwise, if I'm not mistaken, you get 'stuck' with the shields up because as soon as you gain benefit from the pool power in a phase you can't change it with your action.

 

I have played characters with defences in MP - but the other powers in the pool with it tend to be thematically related non-combat powers. One of my player's character has an electrical manipulation MP that provides them with PD/ED with an electrical shield but it can also be used to power a city block (now that was a fun power to create) or cause a blackout  - deliberately (The character already kills nearby iPhones on a regular basis just by using her powers as a Side Effect).

You can abort to any defensive action, so a PC could abort to change the Pool to maximum Defenses.

[steriaca]

You can abort to any defensive action, so a PC could abort to change the Pool to maximum Defenses.

True, but you lose the action till the next action, unless you abort again. And you only have limited aborts (one per normal action). Defenses outside the multipower are always available.

[steriaca]

You can abort to any defensive action, so a PC could abort to change the Pool to maximum Defenses.

Opps double post.

[Tasha]

True, but you lose the action till the next action, unless you abort again. And you only have limited aborts (one per normal action). Defenses outside the multipower are always available.

 

Technically you don't lose any Action. You just used one early to take a Defensive Action (IIRC you can do more that just dodge, I believe you could move your MP around, Skill levels and then make a defensive manuver)

[Christopher]

Technically you don't lose any Action. You just used one early to take a Defensive Action (IIRC you can do more that just dodge, I believe you could move your MP around, Skill levels and then make a defensive manuver)

While we often call it "aborting to [Maneuver X]", the proper terminology is "aborting to your next phase".

You can do everything you could do in a phase in the same segment, provided the GM deems it "defensive" and the actions are not mutually exclusive (like Block, Dodge and Dive for Cover).

 

You can totally swap a Multipower around and Dodge using one aborted phase.

However that does still cost you the aborted phase. You only want to do it if you planned to abort anyway (for the defense maneuver bonus) or you really need those defenses back up (at wich point putting them into a MP is propably a poor trade).

[Hyper-Man]

It is probably worth noting that Multipowers and VPPs can be setup where the total Reserve/Pool is more than the Active Points in any single slot. 

 

The typical Multipower example for this would include all Slots as Variable.  However there is another less obvious option.  If the Reserve is exactly double the highest Active Point Slot then all Slots can be the cheaper Fixed version instead. A high-end version of this can also be done for VPPs now as well. This shifts the choice options of the Framework from the typical binary one of Attack vs Defend to a more broad range of choices.  These can be setup in such a way that it boils down to choosing the best combination of 2 Slots when 3 Slots simultaneously would be optimal (if possible).  If done with a VPP, I recommend pre-building most if not all slots ahead of time.  I would caution against building such a construct for an inexperienced player since this could exacerbate any decision-lock problems they might have at the game table. 

 

HM