Hacking People?

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I am seriously having trouble developing the character Sombra from the game Overwatch. 

 

Her main ability is the ability to use her hacking software to prevent other characters from using their special abilities. The effect does not last long, but is impossible to avoid.

 

I am thinking a type of Drain or Suppress, but the point cost is insane (Mostly because some of the special abilities have Active Point Costs of about 100)! Anyone got any better ideas?

 

BTW, the game this character is for is a 400 CP, 75 MC game. 

[massey]

A power that keeps people from using their own powers *should* be expensive.

[Ndreare]

Sounds to me like a highly limited drain versus Speed.

I am not familiar with the game, but the effect you are describing can be built as a drain versus Speed with the limitation that all points return at the end of Phase 12.

[Deadman]

It sounds to me that Mind Control with a set effect may fit the bill and be much cheaper but I know very little about the game.  It will still be expensive to consistently hit that level of effect but makes sense to me.

[Surrealone]

Sounds to me like a highly limited drain versus Speed.

I am not familiar with the game, but the effect you are describing can be built as a drain versus Speed with the limitation that all points return at the end of Phase 12.

I disagree -- primarily because the Draining of a special ability in no way impairs other things that would be impacted by a SPD Drain.  Examples of things that a SPD Drain would impact ... but things the power should NOT impact ... include but aren't limited to: regular movement, the number of Phases one gets and, thus, the resulting number of 0-Phase actions, soliloquy opportunities, etc. that one has, and the like...

 

 

It sounds to me that Mind Control with a set effect may fit the bill and be much cheaper but I know very little about the game.  It will still be expensive to consistently hit that level of effect but makes sense to me.

I disagree with this, too, because there's a subtle but important difference between someone Mind Controlled into not using an ability ... versus someone losing the ability from a Drain and, thus, being unable to use it.  One of the tactical benefits of the Hack is for the victim of it to try to use the ability only to find it lacking -- as this blows time.  In game terms, Draining away the ability can result in the victim blowing a Phase or two trying to use the lost ability ... whereas if you build as Mind Control, that potential result (and its tactical advantage) is lost due to the construction as Mind Control.

 

 

Her main ability is the ability to use her hacking software to prevent other characters from using their special abilities. The effect does not last long, but is impossible to avoid.

 

I am thinking a type of Drain or Suppress, but the point cost is insane (Mostly because some of the special abilities have Active Point Costs of about 100)! Anyone got any better ideas?

2½d6 Drain (137 Active, 68 Real) - 14 END/use

Variable Effect: Works against any 1 special ability [+½], Damage Over Time: 12 dmg increments, dmg occurs once per segment, defense only applies once, lock out {i.e. cannot be applied multiple times} [+4], Extra Time: 1 Extra Segment {i.e. full second "casting time"} [-½], ½ DCV Concentration during full second 'casting time' [-¼], Limited Range: 15m max [-¼]

 

 

Assuming an average die roll of 3.5 and an average half die roll of 1.5, this will:

• Occupy a full Phase to 'cast' (representing Sombra's 1s casting time)
• Land on the segment immediately following the 'cast'
• Be limited to a max range of 15m to represent proper max range of Sombra's Hack ability
• Drain an average of 8.5 AP of one ability per segment ... for 12 segments
• Yield an overall average Drain effect of 102 AP in 12 segments (starting from the segment on which the 'cast' completes ... which 1 segment after the Phase on which the 'cast' took place)
• Permit Power Defense to only apply once

You would need to define what shuts off the Damage Over Time -- which I've left up to you.

 

If you need to reduce the AP of the ability you could eliminate the half die to get a 110 AP cost (55 Real) , but this will (of course) reduce your per-segment Drain effect from 8.5 AP to 7AP ... and your overall average Drain effect from 102 AP to 84 AP.  You could also toy around with a 1½d6 Drain to go lower.

 

It's not perfect, as it takes 12 segments from the time this goes off ... for it to achieve full effect ... but it's a reasonable and very workable approximation.  For more permanence, simply slow the fade rate.  If END is an issue, look at Charges for a workaround as well as another possible real cost reducer.

 

​For a very different flavor on the same ability, you could do it as 1d6 Drain with all of the same advantages ... but ditch the Lockout on the Damage Over Time aspect.  This would drop the AP cost of the power to 75 ... Drain an average of 3.5 AP of one ability per segment ... for 12 segments ... and yield an overall average Drain effect of 42 AP in 12 segments ... PER USE.  Thus, you'd slap it on someone two or three times to cause it to do what you want it to do; it would probably play out faster, overall, but cost more END (or charges, if you go that route).  You'd get to take a new limitation with this, though ... something to represent the 6 second 'cooldown' associated with Hack -- likely another [-½] limitation based on the value of Extra Time: Extra Phase - Only to Activate.  (You don't get to take that in the original write-up because of the Damage Over Time's Lockout.)

 

Just food for thought...

[Doc Democracy]

One of the tactical benefits of the Hack is for the victim of it to try to use the ability only to find it lacking -- as this blows time.  In game terms, Draining away the ability can result in the victim blowing a Phase or two trying to use the lost ability ... whereas if you build as Mind Control, that potential result (and its tactical advantage) is lost due to the construction as Mind Control.

 

OK.  In HERO then, everything you do to achieve this effect is going to need invisible effect.  Otherwise the player knows they have been affected and how.  It would be a difficult thing to run in an RPG.  

I am also interested in how she knows which abilities to hack.  Can this happen before she sees them in action?  Does she have an analysis power that lays out the capabilities of opponents??

 

I know that I am not making this easier but if you want it to work like people expect then you need to have thought of these things before game time...

 

:-)

 

 

Doc

 

 

 

 

[Surrealone]

OK.  In HERO then, everything you do to achieve this effect is going to need invisible effect.  Otherwise the player knows they have been affected and how.  It would be a difficult thing to run in an RPG.  

I am also interested in how she knows which abilities to hack.  Can this happen before she sees them in action?  Does she have an analysis power that lays out the capabilities of opponents??

 

I know that I am not making this easier but if you want it to work like people expect then you need to have thought of these things before game time...

 

:-)

 

 

Doc

I disagree that IPE is needed in a Hero game -- specifically because the power can be visible to 3 sense groups WITHOUT the target knowing precisely what it did ... until s/he tries to use something affected by it.  Sure, in Overwatch everyone will know what 3 beams emanating from one of Sombra's hands means ... but that's just not the case in Hero unless you take a Public ID and the effects of specific powers you use are well-documented/known.

 

i.e. To my knowledge the requirement for visible powers (i.e. visible to 3 sense groups) in no way states or implies the conveyance of what, precisely a power does.  Someone with the appropriate Detect or Sense (potentially with Analyze/Discriminatory) might know exactly what it did, but when it comes to Sombra's Hack ability in Hero, most targets would see a colorful triple beam, hear a melodic digital sound, and smell some ozone (or another smell) ... and have absolutely NO idea what it did unless there were reasons (having nothing to do with the visibility of the power) that they should already know. (e.g. Previously affected by the Hack, know people previously affected by the Hack who informed them of what to expect, aware of what a Hack looks like and does due to existing Public ID of character using it, victim tried to use a special ability right after a Hack, etc.)

 

As for knowing which abilities to Hack -- that's a thread-derailing question beyond the scope of this thread's original topic (i.e. the construction of the actual Hack), so I won't try to go into it beyond saying that it's as simple as building the Hero character with appropriate senses (a la Analyze/Discriminatory).

[Doc Democracy]

With that argument in mind, I would dispute your contention that Mind Control would not work.  Why should the detail of the mind control mean that the person would be aware of what they cannot use when the detail of a suppress/drain/transform etc would not provide the same information to the victim??

 

:-)

 

Doc

[Lucius]

I find it confusing that first you say this

 

I disagree -- primarily because the Draining of a special ability in no way impairs other things that would be impacted by a SPD Drain.  Examples of things that a SPD Drain would impact ... but things the power should NOT impact ... include but aren't limited to: regular movement, the number of Phases one gets and, thus, the resulting number of 0-Phase actions, soliloquy opportunities, etc. that one has, and the like...

And then you say this

 

 

I disagree with this, too, because there's a subtle but important difference between someone Mind Controlled into not using an ability ... versus someone losing the ability from a Drain and, thus, being unable to use it.  One of the tactical benefits of the Hack is for the victim of it to try to use the ability only to find it lacking -- as this blows time.  In game terms, Draining away the ability can result in the victim blowing a Phase or two trying to use the lost ability ... whereas if you build as Mind Control, that potential result (and its tactical advantage) is lost due to the construction as Mind Control.

It seems the very things you at first say are not impacted, you then turn around and say can be impacted.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

But the palindromedary accuses me of mirepresenting what you are saying...

[Surrealone]

 

With that argument in mind, I would dispute your contention that Mind Control would not work.  Why should the detail of the mind control mean that the person would be aware of what they cannot use when the detail of a suppress/drain/transform etc would not provide the same information to the victim??

The detail of a mind control such as 'do not use ability X' would result in someone not even trying to use it ... and thus, no Phase wasted trying to use an ability the person was ordered not to use via MC. Do you have some other MC order for consideration ... one that would result in the victim wasting time trying to use an action that effectively no longer functions?  If so, let's see the verbiage and target level so we can kick it around...

 

 

 

It seems the very things you at first say are not impacted, you then turn around and say can be impacted.

I think you'll agree that there's a distinct difference between lacking SPD to act (i.e. loss of Phases) as a result of a SPD Drain ... and someone attempting to use a power that has been Drained to the point of non-function.

 

The former ALWAYS Drains all possibility of any actions on given Phases (due to loss of those Phases)  while the latter only impacts one power ... without impacting any other actions directly.  By comparison, the victim of the latter WON'T ALWAYS try to use the Drained power ... meaning s/he MAY take other actions and isn't precluded from doing so like s/he would be if the other actions were attempted on a Phase lost due to a SPD Drained.

 

This is easily summarized as the difference between 'Bob took Bill's actions on Phases X, Y, and Z' ... versus 'Bob took Bill's power ... and Bill tried to use it and lost his action on Phase X by doing so'.  The former is absolute while the latter may or may not occur...

 

By the way:

Keep in mind that Ndreare mentioned a 'highly limited' SPD Drain without any specifics of the limitations.  Thus, I don't know precisely what Ndreare had in mind.  I'd expect there to be the obvious extra time (for both casting and cooldown) limitations as well as concentration to make it properly mimic Sombra's casting and interruptibility, There was also mention of all Drained points returning at the end of the Turn.  What's missing here is how to limit it a target's special ability, since Variable Effect would only let you vary the Characteristic (e.g. Drain SPD this time, Drain DEX next time, etc.) in most cases (akin to Drain Fireblast this time, Drain Fireball next time, Drain some other Fire power the next time -- for comparison).

 

Likewise, I think timing becomes an issue, as the SPD Drain would drop some of the victim's Phases. So, handwaving the problem I just mentioned with Variable Effect just for the sake of discussion, what's a missing pair of Drained Phases translate to?  Does that mean the missing Phases are Phases on which the victim can't use the power???  If so, well that fails to do what Sombra's Hack actually does ... as Sombra's Hack basically locks out special abilities for a window of time, but if you only precluded use of the Power on the missing/dropped/Drained Phases (i.e. those lost as a result of a SPD reduction, which are seldom side-by-side on the SPD chart ... and would not reliably be right after the Drain took effect, either), then in most cases the victim could use the power, be locked out, then use it again, then be locked out -- something most evident when operating at higher speeds on the SPD chart ... and something that's obviously a fairly poor rendition of the Hack ability.  (My DoT approach certainly isn't perfect, but at least once it's fully powered up, it locks out use of the ability for a fairly consistent period of time.)

 

As if the forgoing wasn't enough (with the real sticking point being how to allow selection of different abilities to be affected when SPD is drained), I think you'd run into Active Point cost issues when trying to build a reasonably effective SPD Drain.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Doc Democracy]

I would use, "if you try to use X Power, you will find yourself unable to".

 

I am sure with some thinking, I could find alternates.  

 

Doc

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

2½d6 Drain (137 Active, 68 Real) - 14 END/use

Variable Effect: Works against any 1 special ability [+½], Damage Over Time: 12 dmg increments, dmg occurs once per segment, defense only applies once, lock out {i.e. cannot be applied multiple times} [+4], Extra Time: 1 Extra Segment {i.e. full second "casting time"} [-½], ½ DCV Concentration during full second 'casting time' [-¼], Limited Range: 15m max [-¼].

I really like this. I have edited it very slightly, but the same idea holds. 

[Doc Democracy]

ooh!  What about "if you decide to use power X, instead do nothing for a phase"??

 

Doc

[Surrealone]

 

I would use, "if you try to use X Power, you will find yourself unable to".

 

I am sure with some thinking, I could find alternates.  

 

Doc

 

 

ooh!  What about "if you decide to use power X, instead do nothing for a phase"??

 

Doc

 

In Hero, I'd think the Hack ability should be able to be used on special abilities that are passive in nature just as readily as those that are active in nature.  If the OP feels similarly regarding what he wants his Hack power to do, then the MC routes you just advocated fail to account for inherent, persistent, triggered, and other such passive abilities (Regen, anyone???) ... whereas the Drain approach does not.  Key to this is that a decision to act is required in both of your MC examples... and passive, triggered, and similar powers often don't entail decisions, at all.

 

I like the thinking ... but I just don't think it's as complete as it needs to be.  Got some more sample verbiage?  Note that I'm also asking out of self-interest ... because I'm commencing play as a mentalist in a campaign and, well, I need some help learning to think in terms of solid MC 'orders' ... and also need to find the limitations of MC 'orders' given that my GM has a tendency to think like a djinn who wants to pervert/sidestep wishes/orders!

[Balabanto]

What about Mental Illusion. "Try as you might, you can't use this ability?" And then base it on CON. That would be a really good way of representing hacking into someone's nervous system. Add to this a small uncontrolled, constant CON drain that operates separately every phase, and this power works exactly the way you want it to. Plus, even though CON is more common than EGO, you only need a +10 to affect this change. Everything else goes against the target's CON roll. And CON in general has become much lower since it doesn't also produce END. 

[dsatow]

You could design the power as Mind Control with a set effect, minimum level to achieve ability.  The set effect is Can't use power with a +10 doesn't know what power is affected.

 

You could also use mental illusions "Power does not work".  They could try to activate the power but mentally they aren't activating it and their body wouldn't activate it.  They would also not know what the effect was until they tried it.

 

Drain or Suppress can work but power hacking might take time (constant or cumulative or both).

 

There is the catch all Transform to powerless person with recovery after say 3 seconds. 

[dsatow]

What about Mental Illusion. "Try as you might, you can't use this ability?" And then base it on CON. That would be a really good way of representing hacking into someone's nervous system. Add to this a small uncontrolled, constant CON drain that operates separately every phase, and this power works exactly the way you want it to. Plus, even though CON is more common than EGO, you only need a +10 to affect this change. Everything else goes against the target's CON roll. And CON in general has become much lower since it doesn't also produce END. 

Beaten by 9 minutes while typing this at work.  Argh (10d6 35 Stun 10 Body!) 

[Surrealone]

Ok, so let's talk about Mental Illusions.  In a nutshell, as I understand MI, it makes a victim think things are happening or present ... that aren't.  e.g. You can make it look like a beam struck someone ... or hide the fact that a beam did, indeed, strike someone ... but what is perceived by a victim of MI doesn't in any way alter what actually happened with exception to 'Harmful Illusions' (which are capable of doing STUN at the +10 level or both BODY & STUN for +20).  Right???

 

i.e. With Mental Illusions you'd be able to make the victim think s/he didn't or couldn't activate his/her special ability ... but the Mental Illusion wouldn't prevent the victim from actually activating/using the special ability.

 

If that understanding is correct, then MI wouldn't (in any way) achieve the desired effect of locking out use of the victim's special ability for a period of time ... it'd just make the victim think that's what happened.

 

Thoughts?

[bigbywolfe]

Ok, so let's talk about Mental Illusions. In a nutshell, as I understand MI, it makes a victim think things are happening or present ... that aren't. e.g. You can make it look like a beam struck someone ... or hide the fact that a beam did, indeed, strike someone ... but what is perceived by a victim of MI doesn't in any way alter what actually happened with exception to 'Harmful Illusions' (which are capable of doing STUN at the +10 level or both BODY & STUN for +20). Right???

 

i.e. With Mental Illusions you'd be able to make the victim think s/he didn't or couldn't activate his/her special ability ... but the Mental Illusion wouldn't prevent the victim from actually activating/using the special ability.

 

If that understanding is correct, then MI wouldn't (in any way) achieve the desired effect of locking out use of the victim's special ability for a period of time ... it'd just make the victim think that's what happened.

 

Thoughts?

Correct as far as I can tell.

[Doc Democracy]

I dont want to get stuck on the mind control as an option/not option but the points raised do present an issue with what the power can actually do.

 

I have high STR - can that be hacked?  All of it? Or just the portion that is higher than standard human??

 

Can I not use an inherent ability if told to do so?  Well hypnotists seem to be able to persuade people that they are blind, even though their eyes obviously do work and therefore I would say that mind control should be able to do it too,

 

"you cannot see and do not know why"

 

"you cannot use your energy blast and will not realise until you try to use it"

 

Mind Control is a wide ranging power.

 

I think my main purpose in the conversation was to understand why you thought that another power would not be noticed while mind control would...

 

 

Doc

[Surrealone]

 

I think my main purpose in the conversation was to understand why you thought that another power would not be noticed while mind control would...

 

 

Doc

Then I think there was a fundamental misunderstanding, somewhere, because if you look back, you'll see that nowhere did I indicate (directly or indirectly) "that another power would not be noticed while mind control would."

[Doc Democracy]

Here is the bit I have been working from.  It is implicit here that you reckon someone mind controlled would 'know' they could not use the power while someone hacked through a drain would not.

 

I disagree with this, too, because there's a subtle but important difference between someone Mind Controlled into not using an ability ... versus someone losing the ability from a Drain and, thus, being unable to use it.  One of the tactical benefits of the Hack is for the victim of it to try to use the ability only to find it lacking -- as this blows time.  In game terms, Draining away the ability can result in the victim blowing a Phase or two trying to use the lost ability ... whereas if you build as Mind Control, that potential result (and its tactical advantage) is lost due to the construction as Mind Control.

 

If that is not your position then I am arguing against nothing and simply helping you with syntax for your next mentalist!!  :-)

 

Doc

[Surrealone]

Here is the bit I have been working from.  It is implicit here that you reckon someone mind controlled would 'know' they could not use the power while someone hacked through a drain would not.

 

 

If that is not your position then I am arguing against nothing and simply helping you with syntax for your next mentalist!!  :-)

 

Doc

Heh, that's actually not my position.  i.e. I wasn't suggesting or implying someone Mind Controlled into not using a power would 'know' they couldn't use it.  Rather, my stance was that the victim of a MC-based Hack is basically ordered (via MC) not to use a special ability (under typical MC verbiage) ... and, thus, wouldn't even try to use that ability.  This situation would then preclude the victim from trying and failing to use the special ability... and thereby blowing a half or full Phase. 

 

Your proposed verbiage helps with some of that, but still falls short in properly modeling Sombra's Hack ... specifically when it comes to passive abilities like Healing built as regeneration, Resistant Defense built as Armor, etc -- wherein you can't typically order someone not to use it or to forget how to use it, etc.  Don't get me wrong, because your proposed verbiage certainly overcomes my initial MC-related concerns about not wasting time trying to use a power that can't be used ... but once that hurdle is overcome, there are still more ahead of the MC-based build (i.e. passive powers) that I saw as barriers to proper modeling.  That said, those concerns may have been fine for the OP ... especially considering how reasonably inexpensive a MC-based build would be.

 

IMPORTANT:

I do appreciate the mental exercise with MC verbiage/wording, and I'll be putting that type of thinking to good use this coming Saturday.

[Doc Democracy]

I do not think any power HAS to be used unless it is bought with no conscious control. If it doesn't have to be used then it can consciously be stopped.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Your proposed verbiage helps with some of that, but still falls short in properly modeling Sombra's Hack ... specifically when it comes to passive abilities like Healing built as regeneration, Resistant Defense built as Armor, etc -- wherein you can't typically order someone not to use it or to forget how to use it, etc.  Don't get me wrong, because your proposed verbiage certainly overcomes my initial MC-related concerns about not wasting time trying to use a power that can't be used ... but once that hurdle is overcome, there are still more ahead of the MC-based build (i.e. passive powers) that I saw as barriers to proper modeling.  That said, those concerns may have been fine for the OP ... especially considering how reasonably inexpensive a MC-based build would be.

 

IMPORTANT:

I do appreciate the mental exercise with MC verbiage/wording, and I'll be putting that type of thinking to good use this coming Saturday.

So, here is my take. 

 

I like the use of MC as a possible instant effect rather than drain. Drain can be more versatile in effect. I think it makes more sense to build it as a MC for following reasons.

 

1) I would rather have an effect that can be broken by a good breakout roll. This will vary the time that different people need to reactivate their powers

 

2) Mind Control works without an AP limit. 

 

3) I would rather not try to develop a DoT negator. 

 

Mostly, Sombra's ability in game has no effect on passive abilities. Lucio's healing and speed boost is not affected (but it cannot be changed from one to the other). Reaper's self-heal ability is not affected. Torbjorn's scrap collection is not affected. See my point? Even if they were affected, most of them are probably Inherent (and thus cannot be adjusted).