Consciously not using powers

[Doc Democracy]

This comes from the Hacking people thread.  We were talking about using mind control to prevent people from using a power.

 

The question is whether you can not use a constant power.  For example, life support is not in many cases a power that a player consciously switches on.  Or PD.  Or regeneration.

 

I dont think there is anything in the rules that say my character, just because I bought him regeneration, has to use the regeneration....

 

That does however cause some logical disconnects.  I can decide to stop breathing, until I pass out and my body makes a more rational decision.  I can close my eyes but cannot 'stop seeing' if my eyes are open.  However, there is such a thing as hysterical blindness and hypnotists often convince people that they cannot see, or cannot read.

 

Where do the boundaries lie?

 

I presume that if my mentalist told your character the he could not use his force field, you would, if the numbers were good, have no problem with that.  However would your reaction be the same if the power in question was Regeneration or PD??

 

I am not sure what I think here or where I think the boundaries might be...

 

 

Doc

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm, I would presume the power would have to be non-persistent. Otherwise I guess it's a drain vs the power with the SFX of mind control? AVLD from power defense to mental defense should be a +0 modifier, so a drain with 'AVLD mental defense (+0), incantations (-1/4), target must understand the language spoken (-1/4)' on a drain would work for 'mind control vs constant powers...'

[Doc Democracy]

Bob, thanks for the reply.

Hmm, I would presume the power would have to be non-persistent. Otherwise I guess it's a drain vs the power with the SFX of mind control? AVLD from power defense to mental defense should be a +0 modifier, so a drain with 'AVLD mental defense (+0), incantations (-1/4), target must understand the language spoken (-1/4)' on a drain would work for 'mind control vs constant powers...'

 

The question is whether a mind control command to not use the power would work just as well.

 

I am looking to explore what the rules say.  

 

Could my character decide not to use his regeneration?  Could he decide not to use his PD?

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm... 6E1 has this to say on p128:

 

A Persistent Power stays activated unless the character deliberately turns it off. Persistent Powers include Mental Defense, Enhanced Senses, Resistant Protection, and any power bought with the Persistent Advantage (6E1 334). [...] A character can turn off a Persistent Power if he chooses; the Power remains off until he turns it back on.

So it looks like there is some ability to turn off persistent powers. I guess if you didn't want shenanigans to happen with your defenses, you'd make them inherent?

[Tech]

Just give the power the limitation: must turn on.

[Cantriped]

Yes, unless otherwise noted, your character can choose not to Regenerate.

 

As a GM I would generally allow a character to use Mind Control to force another character to turn off persistent and constant powers, but the mechanical effect is generally something a character should be using Dispel is achieve (regardless of its special effect). So perhaps Dispel or Suppress, AVAD (Mental Defense) would be more appropriate.

 

Life Support and Regeneration are unusual powers that in most cases should have been bought Inherent (and Always On), but in practice they rarely actually are; so I would generally look askance at the use of Dispel or Drain/Suppress (Life Support or Regeneration)

[massey]

I'd say it comes down to special effects.  Ben Grimm can't turn off his PD.  He just is an orange rock guy.  Colossus, however, can change back to human.  Even if he isn't built on a multiform, or with OIHID, since his character concept is that he changes back and forth between human and steel guy, then he can do it when mind controlled.

 

One way that I've built Superman was to do him in tiered builds.  So he's got his full strength "the world is in danger" version.  And then he's got his "fighting a supervillain" version that is less powerful.  And then there's "stopping a bank robbery", and below that there's "saving a cat out of a tree".  When he's saving a cat, he's probably like a 60 Str, 30 PD/ED, 5 Speed.  When he's saving the world, he's probably 150 Str, 80 Def, 11 Speed or something else ungodly.  These aren't limitations on the character, they're just roleplaying notes.  He wants to be human, so he generally uses as little power as possible.  Theoretically you could mind control Superman into thinking that he was at Lois' birthday party or something and his defenses would drop, because he doesn't think he needs them.

 

I justify it by imagining some professional boxer, a high-PD real life person if ever there was one, getting a paper cut or a splinter or some other tiny injury while sitting around the house.  And he whines and cries because it hurts.  If he had his game face on, and was in the ring fighting someone, he wouldn't even notice it.  But since he's effectively "not using" his PD at the time, he can feel pain from a tiny little thing that wouldn't normally bother him.  I'd probably set an artificial floor for some of it though.  You can't reduce the boxer to 0 PD, and you can't drop Superman down below like 25 or something.  Eventually their body just has a certain innate level of durability that it won't go below without a Drain.

 

Likewise, a robot can't be commanded to turn off his Life Support.  He doesn't breathe because he doesn't need oxygen.  He can't turn it off by returning to some non-powered state, because he's always been a robot that doesn't breathe.  Superman, on the other hand, has Life Support Breathing because he keeps super-compressed air in his lungs, enough to last long enough that it doesn't matter.  So you could theoretically mind control him to exhale all that air, and then he wouldn't have LS: Breathing anymore until he got another deep breath.

[Lucius]

However, there is such a thing as hysterical blindness and hypnotists often convince people that they cannot see, or cannot read. 

Doc

That wouldn't be Mind Control. That would be Mental Illusions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

You do not see the palindromedary

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think persistent is the key, as Crusher Bob says.  You cannot intentionally shut off a persistent, constant power (like your PD or Power Defense), its just there.

[massey]

I think persistent is the key, as Crusher Bob says.  You cannot intentionally shut off a persistent, constant power (like your PD or Power Defense), its just there.

 

Sure you could.  You can't shut off a power that has "always on" as a limitation on it.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

So you are saying that PD has built into its structure not just 0 END Cost, Persistent, and Constant, but Always On as well?

[massey]

So you are saying that PD has built into its structure not just 0 END Cost, Persistent, and Constant, but Always On as well?

 

No I'm saying that you can voluntarily lower your PD.  It's just... nobody normally wants to.

 

Description-wise, I'm saying that PD includes a lot of things.  It's your basic physical durability.  But it's also your innate ability to roll with a blow, the adrenaline that lets you ignore pain, sheer bloody-mindedness that lets you grit your teeth and shrug off an attack.  Things like that.  Now in game terms, yeah, your full PD applies even if you're asleep.  But as far as description goes, you can justify a high PD all kinds of different ways.

[Beast]

well for 1 thing it will pretty much be an ego+30 to get done
you might just want to ask"where would it do the most damage to you if I stabbed you with this huge dagger?"

[Doc Democracy]

That wouldn't be Mind Control. That would be Mental Illusions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

You do not see the palindromedary

You think hypnotises are using mental illusions? I think they are essentially telling people not to see and they cannot. Hysterical blindness is the brain refusing to process incoming signals despite there being no ohysical reason not to.

 

I think if it is possible for my subconscious to refuse to see then someone with mental powers could successfully instruct me not to see....

[Christopher R Taylor]

No I'm saying that you can voluntarily lower your PD

 

I can't imagine a way someone could do so, at least not unless the specifically bought extra PD they could shut off.  

 

[Hyper-Man]

Unless the Always On Limitation is taken (even if just as a notation at the (-0) level) a character can turn off Persistent Powers.

 

There was a great example of this in the 2007 tv series Painkiller Jane.

 

The title character has Wolverine-like Regeneration with a twist. She can consciously turn the ability off which was a key plot point of an episode.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painkiller_Jane_(TV_series)

http://blogcritics.org/tv-review-painkiller-jane-portraits-of/

 

HM

[dmjalund]

Always On is only appropriate if not being able to turn it off is actually a significant disadvantage.

[Doc Democracy]

Always On is only appropriate if not being able to turn it off is actually a significant disadvantage.

Always on, at a level greater than +0, is only appropriate if not being able to turn it off is actually a significant disadvantage...

[Surrealone]

Sure you could.  You can't shut off a power that has "always on" as a limitation on it.  

I disagree with that -- because when shut off, it isn't persisting and thus, isn't persistent (per literal definition).

 

I know this flies in the face of what Crusher Bob cited from p128 of 6E vol1, but I would argue that 6E vol1 has it wrong ... because what it describes flies in the face of the very definition of 'persistent' since something that persists doesn't stop.  Thus, it makes no logical or grammatical sense to state that you can voluntarily stop something that, by definition ... doesn't stop.

 

 

 

Always on, at a level greater than +0, is only appropriate if not being able to turn it off is actually a significant disadvantage...

Spot-on.  An example of this is a Force Field that doesn't emcompass carried items (i.e. through which food would not pass) .... that is always on ... for a character who must touch something.  The FF precludes that and, thus, it's a disadvantage.  (I hope such a character doesn't need to eat!)

[Hyper-Man]

 

Hmm... 6E1 has this to say on p128:
 

PERSISTENT POWERS
A Persistent Power stays activated unless the character deliberately turns it off. Persistent Powers include Mental Defense, Enhanced Senses, Resistant Protection, and any power bought with the Persistent Advantage (6E1 334). A character doesn’t have to turn on a Persistent Power; it’s assumed to be on at all times, even when the character is unconscious. A character can turn off a Persistent Power if he chooses; the Power remains off until he turns it back on. Inherently Persistent Powers never cost END.

 

So it looks like there is some ability to turn off persistent powers. I guess if you didn't want shenanigans to happen with your defenses, you'd make them inherent?

 

Also from 6e1 page 128:

 

INHERENT POWERS
Persistent Powers that are Always On (see 6E1 367), or which in the GM’s judgment function in a similar fashion to being Always On, can be made Inherent. An Inherent Power is one that reflects a character’s natural state of being. For example, ghosts are naturally intangible (Inherent Desolidification), and many characters have tails (Inherent Extra Limbs, the most common example of an Inherent Power that’s not Always On). Inherent Powers cannot be Drained or “turned off” — you can’t make a ghost solid by using Drain Desolidification on him, for example. They also can’t be improved or boosted through Absorption, Aid, or the like. However, Transforms and Powers Usable On Others can alter or remove an Inherent Power.

 

I disagree with that -- because when shut off, it isn't persisting and thus, isn't persistent (per literal definition).

 

I know this flies in the face of what Crusher Bob cited from p128 of 6E vol1, but I would argue that 6E vol1 has it wrong ... because what it describes flies in the face of the very definition of 'persistent' since something that persists doesn't stop.  Thus, it makes no logical or grammatical sense to state that you can voluntarily stop something that, by definition ... doesn't stop.

 

...

 

It sure sounds like you are attempting to assign a 'special effect' to the word persistent.  Keep in mind that in the context of the HERO rules it is just a mechanic.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

So Inherent is the category we're thinking of, thanks  Its clear to me that you cannot alter or shut off powers like physical defense, its just part of your existence as a physical being.

[Surrealone]

Well said, and I concur with that assessment in the wake of HM's clarification.

[Doc Democracy]

So Inherent is the category we're thinking of, thanks  Its clear to me that you cannot alter or shut off powers like physical defense, its just part of your existence as a physical being.

So if it is inherent, is there a list of things that should not be altered or shut off?

[Doc Democracy]

I have to admit that my problem with this is that we are giving some things a protection that others do not have simply due to our concept of what it means in game. Mechanically, PD should be no different from, for example, SPD.

 

I understand the gut response, but I have game issues with the decision...

[Hugh Neilson]

No I'm saying that you can voluntarily lower your PD.  It's just... nobody normally wants to.

Not true. Read the old Superman comics - how often could he have dealt with a threat to his secret ID if he could shut off his rPD so, for example, his hair and fingernails could be trimmed, or he could receive an injection without breaking the needle? That was a plot point in a DC comic many years back when Power Girl (I think) was badly injured and required surgery. So where's the scalpel that will work for the surgery?

 

If you take a -1/4 limitation because your PD cannot be shut off, that means it not only cannot be turned off, but that inability to turn it off will create challenges for the character in-game.

 

I disagree with that -- because when shut off, it isn't persisting and thus, isn't persistent (per literal definition).

So what is a Sound Flash by literal definition? Would you also prohibit "Teleportation, must pass through intervening space"? Really Combat Luck is dodging, not defenses. Hyper-Man sums it up perfectly:

 

It sure sounds like you are attempting to assign a 'special effect' to the word persistent.  Keep in mind that in the context of the HERO rules it is just a mechanic.