Adding Damage - Check My Math?

[bigdamnhero]

OK, I should know how to do this, but my brain is misfiring today. If someone could glance at this and tell me what I'm missing, I'd really appreciate it.

 

Superheroic game, using 6ed. (I don't think the DC rules changed from 5ed?) The PC is a knife-fighter with 20 STR, Martial Arts, and knives purchased as OIF Powers. (Because he has multiple knives; if disarmed, he can always grab another one.)

 

Regular Fighting Knives: 2 1/2d6K, 0 END, OIF [60 AP, 8 DCs]

20 STR adds 4 DCs => 4d6 K

Martial Strike adds 2 DCs => 4 1/2d6K

+2 HTH Damage Classes => 5d6+1 K

Using Offensive Strike instead of Martial Strike would add another 2 DCs => 6d6K

 

Diamond-Tipped Fighting Knives: 2dK, AP (+1/4), 0 END, OIF [52 AP, 8 DCs]

20 STR adds 4 DCs => 3d6 K, AP

Martial Strike adds 2 DCs => 3 1/2d6 K, AP

+2 HTH Damage Classes => 4d6 K, AP

Using Offensive Strike would add another 2 DCs => 4 1/2d6K

 

Is 8 DCs right for the AP knives? 2d6K with AP is 37 AP (not counting the 0 END), which should be 7 DCs, but the table on 6e2 p101 shows it should be 8?

 

Thanks in advance. Only been playing this game for ~30 years and all. Another 30 years and I should have it down.  

[Hyper-Man]

I'll check it later when I have access to my pdfs

 

HM

[Ndreare]

This does not look right.

You are forgetting the 0-end changes it to 22.5 points per die and I think martial arts only add half to killing attacks. But I could be miss-remembering.

The AP makes it 26.75 points per killing dice.

 

I will check.

[Ndreare]

Okay I checked the book and martial arts are added directly as DCs so that is good.

But 6e2 Combat & Campaigns page 97 covers "Damage Classes of Advantaged Powers" covers the rest of the question.

 

So your total would be 4d6+1 killing for the 100 Active point attack and 3d6+1 for the armor piercing 92 Active Point attack.

[bigdamnhero]

But 0 END isn't considered an Advantage That Directly Affects Damage per 6e2 p98. It affects the cost of the AP/RP Power (obviously), but not the DC, right?

[Deadman]

But 0 END isn't considered an Advantage That Directly Affects Damage per 6e2 p98. It affects the cost of the AP/RP Power (obviously), but not the DC, right?

 

Correct because you are going to be paying END for the STR.  The way that I see it you have to account for the AP Modifier in the DC you are adding with the Diamond Tipped Blades.  So you would actually only realize +6DC with a Martial Strike and +8DC with an Offensive Strike.  The Martial Strike is adding 8DC (or 40 Active Points) while the Offensive Strike adds 10DC (or 50 Active Points).  So when you account for the Armor Piercing you end up with 32 and 40 respectively.  But they are Armor Piercing.  So you have a 4d6AP Martial Strike and a 4 1/2d6AP Offensive Strike with your Diamond Tipped Blades which is what you had in the first place..

[Ndreare]

As a GM I would accept that and exclude reduced endurance from the DC calculation making it 6d6 and 4d6+1 respectively. Because the offensive strike on the Armor Piercing killing attack is only +1 as each step is 6.25 points and it only provides 10 points not 13.

[massey]

In 5th ed, martial arts added to killing damage 2 for 1.  So your martial strike (normally 2D6) would only add 1 DC to an HKA.  So your 4D6 HKA would be 4D6+1, or 4 1/2D6 / 5D6-1 when you include increased damage classes.  Offensive strike would get you to a full 5D6.

 

That's in 5th.  If 6th changed it, then you're right on the first one.

 

 

On the diamond tipped knives, it's different.

 

Edit:  I forgot that 6th ed made AP a +1/4 advantage.  Nevermind on the second part of my post.

[Deadman]

As a GM I would accept that and exclude reduced endurance from the DC calculation making it 6d6 and 4d6+1 respectively. Because the offensive strike on the Armor Piercing killing attack is only +1 as each step is 6.25 points and it only provides 10 points not 13.

 

I have always used the Total rather than going by each entity adding to it.  So in the case of Offensive Strike I would add the 4DC from the Maneuver, the 2DC from HTH Damage Classes and the 4 DC from STR for a total of 10DC.  Then apply the Advantage for Armor Piercing resulting in +2 1/2d6.  I guess it is based on how the GM construes it.

[bigdamnhero]

This is all just reinforcing my conviction that the one thing Hero could do to reduce the most complexity would be to simply drop Killing Attacks as a separate damage mechanic and simply make it a +0 Advantage on regular damage. Heresy, I know...

[Ndreare]

That is another topic altogether, but I think to remove killing damage from Hero would require very little effort.

 

1: Edit out all references to killing attacks

2: Edit out all references to resistant defence.

 

The system would work fine after that. Piercing, Penetrating, AVAD, AVLD, Hardened, and Impenetrable can cover everything killing attacks do.

[Hyper-Man]

Your numbers are correct!

 

The easiest method I've come up with for dealing with Advantaged Attack damage adding is to break it down as follows:

 

Determine the total Advantages that count towards damage and use it to create the fractional ratio that added DC's convert to Advantaged DC's. (Not the best terminology I know. I would otherwise use 'dice' but that only applies to normal HA's with Advantages and not Killing Attacks).

 

So in the case of AP (+1/4) the Active Cost gets multiplied by 1 and 1/4 or 5/4.  The reciprocal of that is 4/5th which is the rate at which any additional DC's convert to Advantaged DC's.  I try to include this "Rate" in the Notes of the HA or HKA on the character sheet so it can easily be applied to multiple combat maneuvers.

 

If the Total Advantage is (+1/2) then the rate become 2/3rd

If the Total Advantage is (+3/4) then the rate becomes 4/7th

(+1) becomes 1/2

(+1 1/4) becomes 4/9th

(+1 1/2) becomes 2/5th

etc....
 

You'll notice that 4/7th and 4/9th are ugly rates to deal with so I try to always keep the damage advantages at the 'neat' break point (+1/4, +1/2, +1 or even +1 1/2) values when possible.

 

Diamond-Tipped Fighting Knives: 2dK, AP (+1/4), 0 END, OIF [52 AP, 8 DCs]

20 STR adds 4 DCs => 3d6 K, AP

Martial Strike adds 2 DCs => 3 1/2d6 K, AP

+2 HTH Damage Classes => 4d6 K, AP

Using Offensive Strike would add another 2 DCs => 4 1/2d6K

 

4 DCs from STR

4 DCs from Martial Stike (includes the +2 Martial DC's)

6 DCs from Offensive Strike (includes the +2 Martial DC's)

 

8 * 4/5 = 32/5 which rounds down to +6 DC's with the AP Advantage using Martial Strike.

12 DC then becomes 4d6K AP (*edited)

 

10 * 4/5 = +8 DC's with the AP Advantage using Offensive Strike.

14 DC then becomes 4 1/2d6 K AP

 

HM

[bigdamnhero]

The easiest method I've come up with for dealing with Advantaged Attack damage adding is to break it down as follows:

 

Determine the total Advantages that count towards damage and use it to create the fractional ratio that added DC's convert to Advantaged DC's. (Not the best terminology I know. I would otherwise use 'dice' but that only applies to normal HA's with Advantages and not Killing Attacks).

 

So in the case of AP (+1/4) the Active Cost gets multiplied by 1 and 1/4 or 5/4.  The reciprocal of that is 4/5th which is the rate at which any additional DC's convert to Advantaged DC's.  I try to include this "Rate" in the Notes of the HA or HKA on the character sheet so it can easily be applied to multiple combat maneuvers.

 

If the Total Advantage is (+1/2) then the rate become 2/3rd

If the Total Advantage is (+3/4) then the rate becomes 4/7th

(+1) becomes 1/2

etc....

OK, that makes sense so far, thanks.

 

4 DCs from STR

4 DCs from Martial Stike (includes the +2 Martial DC's)

6 DCs from Offensive Strike (includes the +2 Martial DC's)

 

8 * 4/5 = 32/6 which rounds down to +5 DC's with the AP Advantage using Martial Strike.

11 DC then becomes 3 1/2 K AP

Sorry, you lost me again. Wouldn't 8 DCs * 4/5 be 32/5 => 6 rather than 32/6 => 5? Either way, how does adding that to the base of 8 DCs wind up with 11 DCs?

 

Your numbers are correct!

But you came up with 3 1/2 d6 K AP for the Martial Strike (w STR & +2 HTH DCs), whereas I came up with 4d6 K AP? I'm not saying you're right & I'm wrong, mind you. I think I'm getting more confused - maybe Friday afternoon wasn't the best time to tackle this...

[bigdamnhero]

[i know we're off-topic, but hey it's my thread and I'll digress if I want to.]

 

That is another topic altogether, but I think to remove killing damage from Hero would require very little effort.

1: Edit out all references to killing attacks
2: Edit out all references to resistant defence.

The system would work fine after that. Piercing, Penetrating, AVAD, AVLD, Hardened, and Impenetrable can cover everything killing attacks do.

You wouldn't even have to do that. You can keep Killing Attacks, just remove Killing Dice. So a 12DC Killing Attack instead of rolling 4d6 K, rolls 12d6 like a Normal Attack - the only difference is that the BODY ignores Nonresistant Def. The math is slightly different, but not enough to be significant. You basically make it a very limited type of AVAD. (Maybe reduce the STUN by say -1 per die to balance it and call it a +0?) Everything else works the same but now you don't need a second set of rules for how [everything] applies to a different dice mechanic. Easy.

[bigdamnhero]

I have always used the Total rather than going by each entity adding to it.  So in the case of Offensive Strike I would add the 4DC from the Maneuver, the 2DC from HTH Damage Classes and the 4 DC from STR for a total of 10DC.  Then apply the Advantage for Armor Piercing resulting in +2 1/2d6.  I guess it is based on how the GM construes it.

That makes sense to me. Just curious tho - are you using the tables to do this, or "mathing" it based on the points?

[Hyper-Man]

OK, that makes sense so far, thanks.

 

Sorry, you lost me again. Wouldn't 8 DCs * 4/5 be 32/5 => 6 rather than 32/6 => 5? Either way, how does adding that to the base of 8 DCs wind up with 11 DCs?

 

But you came up with 3 1/2 d6 K AP for the Martial Strike (w STR & +2 HTH DCs), whereas I came up with 4d6 K AP? I'm not saying you're right & I'm wrong, mind you. I think I'm getting more confused - maybe Friday afternoon wasn't the best time to tackle this...

 

Oops! I made a dyslexic arithmetic error while thinking mostly about fractions and I'm used to Hero Designer automatically combining Martial Damage Classes with Martial Maneuvers so I was looking at your Strike line instead of the one after it. 

 

4d6K AP is correct for the Martial Strike.

 

HM

[Ndreare]

[i know we're off-topic, but hey it's my thread and I'll digress if I want to.] You wouldn't even have to do that. You can keep Killing Attacks, just remove Killing Dice. So a 12DC Killing Attack instead of rolling 4d6 K, rolls 12d6 like a Normal Attack - the only difference is that the BODY ignores Nonresistant Def. The math is slightly different, but not enough to be significant. You basically make it a very limited type of AVAD. (Maybe reduce the STUN by say -1 per die to balance it and call it a +0?) Everything else works the same but now you don't need a second set of rules for how [everything] applies to a different dice mechanic. Easy.

I like this idea. Reminds me of how Fuzion sorted them.

[Deadman]

That makes sense to me. Just curious tho - are you using the tables to do this, or "mathing" it based on the points?

 

I usually do it by the points but the Table on 6e2 p.101 will give you the same results.

 

[i know we're off-topic, but hey it's my thread and I'll digress if I want to.]

 

You wouldn't even have to do that. You can keep Killing Attacks, just remove Killing Dice. So a 12DC Killing Attack instead of rolling 4d6 K, rolls 12d6 like a Normal Attack - the only difference is that the BODY ignores Nonresistant Def. The math is slightly different, but not enough to be significant. You basically make it a very limited type of AVAD. (Maybe reduce the STUN by say -1 per die to balance it and call it a +0?) Everything else works the same but now you don't need a second set of rules for how [everything] applies to a different dice mechanic. Easy.

 

In the past I have used an +1/4 Advantage Called Killing Blast to do this very thing.  I personally don't think the benefit is enough to warrant the +1/2 Advantage using AVAD but that is another possibility.  Since they dropped the Stun Multiplier to 1d3 Killing Attacks do pathetic STUN and you do get essentially a +1.5 point bump in the Average Stun on every Die of damage so maybe +1/2 does make sense.  Though the case could be made for a Limitation that NonResistant Defenses Apply to the Stun Damage of the Attack.  So maybe something like this...

 

Killing Blast:  Blast 8d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Resistant PD; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Non-Resistant Defense Applies To STUN Damage As Long As Target Has Some Resistant Defense (-1/4)

[Hugh Neilson]

This is all just reinforcing my conviction that the one thing Hero could do to reduce the most complexity would be to simply drop Killing Attacks as a separate damage mechanic and simply make it a +0 Advantage on regular damage. Heresy, I know...

I don't think the KA is the biggest complexity above. It's pro rating DC's for advantages. A lot of the discussion above would be the same for a normal attack (especially with 6e getting rid of the special exception for martial DCs enhancing KAs which was deliberate to streamline the damage adding rules). Of course, many Hero gamers can't seem to get over 6e's removing the "no more than double the base attack" rule, so that may need to be discussed with your GM.

 

I use the "add up AP and divide  by appropriate advantage" approach, so I agree with the regular knives. The AP ones are 2d6 AP KA = 37.5 AP, plus 20 for STR + 10 for HTH DCs + 10 (or 20) for martial arts = 77.5 (or 87.5) divided by 1.25 for AP = 62 (70) = 4d6 (4 1/2d6) AP KA.

 

[quote name="bigdamnhero" post="2555672" timestamp="1483754657You wouldn't even have to do that. You can keep Killing Attacks, just remove Killing Dice. So a 12DC Killing Attack instead of rolling 4d6 K, rolls 12d6 like a Normal Attack - the only difference is that the BODY ignores Nonresistant Def. The math is slightly different, but not enough to be significant. You basically make it a very limited type of AVAD. (Maybe reduce the STUN by say -1 per die to balance it and call it a +0?) Everything else works the same but now you don't need a second set of rules for how [everything] applies to a different dice mechanic. Easy.

 

We discussed KAs extensively back in the SETAC days. One option suggested was 1d6 per 5 points, count BOD as 1-5 = 1 BOD and 6 = 2 (or some other variation for an average 1 1/6 BOD per d6, which equates to 3.5 BOD for 3 DCs like the present KA). Adding the STUN becomes the problematic part. You could subtract the DCs (average STUN for 12 DCs becomes 30), which was a drop from the 5e average of 37.33. You could subtract half the DCs for 36, much closer. But it would be pretty fiddly.

 

Something had to give. The volatility of KAs made them more effective at punching STUN through above average defenses, which was a concern in Supers games (hit locations seems to mitigate it as Heroic games did not seem to have similar issues). Dropping the Stun Multiple made KAs about doing BOD, not STUN.

 

That also relegates them to a pretty niche power in Supers, but if the game is not supposed to be lethal, KA's should not be an attack of choice, so that seems a feature. Dropping AP to +1/4 actually made that viable in Supers, so there was a tradeoff there.

 

I think Steve's call to reduce the Stun Multiple makes sense, given those issues.

[bigdamnhero]

Though the case could be made for a Limitation that NonResistant Defenses Apply to the Stun Damage of the Attack.

I've been toying with that idea myself, but haven't played around with it enough to have a real opinion. It seems like it might simplify a few things. Alternately if you say the AVAD only applies to the BODY damage, then maybe +1/4 is appropriate?

 

I'm also conflicted about the reduction of the Stun Multiple. I liked the idea behind it at first, but in practice it kinda feels like it nerfed Killing Attacks - if you don't get any BODY through, your chances of doing decent STUN are minimal. It doesn't bother me in supers, where I agree Killing Attacks shouldn't be as common (at least not for heroes). But in our current FH game it really makes it difficult to KO someone with a sword. That can make fantasy combat more lethal, which can be good, but it also makes combats drag out longer.

 

But then if the idea is to make X Killing DCs cost the same and be generally as effective as X Normal DCs, then having KAs effectively do more BODY but less STUN gives them some sort of balance.

 

I don't think the KA is the biggest complexity above. It's pro rating DC's for advantages.

True enough. Tho it's a little easier with Normal Attacks because it's easier to handle the steps when 1 DC = 1d6 compared to 1DC = 1/3d6K. But what I mostly meant was just that having two separate damage mechanisms doubles the size of all rules regarding damage - from adding damage, to Hit Locs, to things like Penetrating - because first you have to explain how it works with Normal Dice and then how it works with Killing Dice.

 

We discussed KAs extensively back in the SETAC days.

Seattle-Tacoma Airport?  I do get that it's more complicated than I'm making it sound, tho.

 

That also relegates them to a pretty niche power in Supers...

Which is fine for supers, but Hero is supposed to be about more than just Champions...

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm also conflicted about the reduction of the Stun Multiple. I liked the idea behind it at first, but in practice it kinda feels like it nerfed Killing Attacks - if you don't get any BODY through, your chances of doing decent STUN are minimal. It doesn't bother me in supers, where I agree Killing Attacks shouldn't be as common (at least not for heroes). But in our current FH game it really makes it difficult to KO someone with a sword. That can make fantasy combat more lethal, which can be good, but it also makes combats drag out longer.

I believe that's largely why hit location Multiples were not changed. With normal attacks also getting added volatility out of hit locations, the impact is mitigated somewhat. I've never played Fantasy with no hit locations, and nothing would stop using that table only for STUN x and other damage effects. But I'd like the Monk and the Staff Fighter (ie normal attacks) to have the potential benefits of volatility as well.

 

Which is fine for supers, but Hero is supposed to be about more than just Champions...

I don't think it is "supers" so much as "low lethality". I can envision a bloodier Iron Age Supers game where rDEF are lower and KA's get BOD through. I'd be inclined to set this up using Damage Negation in preference to high defenses so point spent on defenses reduced BOD damage less.