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Newbie question: non-killing damage is normal?


knasser2

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So in the 6th ed. book it says that "Most attacks do Normal Damage" and this is re-iterated in various places. And the game does seem to imply in a few places that you would normally be building powers with Normal Damage rather than Killing Damage. But barring a few uncommon examples, such as two unarmed people battering each other with their fists (and even that can easily be fatal in real life), nearly everthing I'm giving to a character or a monster is a Killing Attack. Swords, maces, a wolf's bite and a giant's hurled boulder. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something obvious or fundamental. Even the example creatures in FHC seem to have a lot of KA. Am I doing it wrong? Am I risking unbalance in the system. I mean pg.15 says right there that normal defences "offer no protection against the BODY of Killing Damage". Yet I've got warriors battering each other with swords and arrows and that means all of these "Normal Defences" wont have any effect.

 

Basically, I'm just really confused because it seems like some attributes are close to worthless (e.g. Normal Defences) and that the game is explicitly telling me on the one hand that Killing Attacks are unusual but on the other hand keeps telling me to class things as Killing Attacks. E.g. FHC says melee weapons are normally HKA and it doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't be, too. Help? :)

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What you are running into is perfectly normal. Fantasy Hero has a lot more lethality than the system itself normally assumes. That being said, "Normal Defenses" (i.e. nonresistant defenses) still apply against the STUN damage of Killing Attacks.

Furthermore, there is an assumption that most characters will have some level of Resistant Defense (in addition to their normal, nonresistant defense), all of the armor provides Resistant Defenses (which apply normally against Killing Attacks) (In D&D terms, Armor provides Damage Reduction instead of Armor Class). Further unlike D&D, there is no built in restrictions on Spellcaster's wearing armor too (except possibly their low Strength scores), and even if you write in such a restriction (many GMs do) spellcaster's still typically have access to spells that grant them Resistant Defenses instead.

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This is one of those places where Hero System's roots as a superheroic system show in the terminology.

 

In a comic book game, villains and heroes whale away on each with fists and "energy blasts" and uprooted telephone poles and thrown cars etc. and it's all in "Normal Damage." The system refers to non-Killing Attacks as "Normal" because that is what's normal in a comic book, where traditionally guns and knives were unusual.

 

In a typical fantasy game, sharp weapons are much more common. That's why I give EVERYONE in such a game Combat Luck, unless they already have scaly skin or the like. Resistant Defenses shouldn't be rare.

 

The other possible source of confusion is in the name of "Killing Attack." First of all, a Killing Attack can't necessarily kill you. If you buy it with Attack Vs Limited Defense, by default it does no BODy and CAN'T kill someone - but it's still a "Killing Attack" in terms of what dice are rolled, etc.

 

On the other hand, a large Normal Attack can easily kill you. Just because it's "not a Killing Attack" doesn't mean it won't kill you just as dead.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks if Mental Blast is a ParaNormal Attack

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A friend of mine likes to use James Bond movies--Goldfinger in particular--as a way to show the difference between normal and killing damage.

 

When Bond faces Odd Job in the vault at Fort Knox, he's cautious but not excessively so. Yes, Odd Job is bigger and stronger, but Bond is also a strong and experienced fighter. In Champions terms, he's got enough PD and ED to weather quite a bit of normal damage. But when Odd Job readies his razor-edged hat, which can decapitate a marble statue, Bond gets a LOT more cautious, because now he's facing Killing Damage, and his normal PD and ED will not help him nearly as much. Ditto if someone points a gun at him.

 

Basically, is a weapon--a knife, sword, gun, or a predator's teeth and claws--designed to kill? Then it's Killing Damage. But fisticuffs, a handy makeshift club, and the like? While, yes, it *can* kill you if it does enough damage, it has to overcome your normal PD and ED first.

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Thanks. So it's a genre artifact. I'd honestly quibble with it even in a comic book game given that it lists examples of killing attacks including claws or a dagger, but being whacked with an uprooted telephone pole is not. But I suppose a Normal Attack still does Body damage which could kill someone so it works in principle.

 

So should I pretty much disregard "Normal Damage" except in rare circumstances such as the aforementioned bare-knuckle fight?

 

I'm honestly struggling more and more with all of this as I go on. I'm sure if I were a computer for which terms like "Normal Damage" and "Killing Damage" were just labels with no intrinsic meaning, I would not find it so disorientating. But I am not and I find myself repeatedly having to detach words from their ordinary meaning in order to make sense of it.

 

So if I disregard "Normal Damage", I'm basically left with the following:

 

KA: roll a number of dice, damage is the number of dice plus or minus one for each six or one respectively. THEN roll 1d3 and multiply it to also do Stun damage. Subtract the Resistant Defence (whether Energy or Physical as appropriate) from the Body damage and the Resistant Defence + Non-Resistant Defence from the Stun damage.

 

So if a character has a dagger (example from the book) and less than 15 Strength, they would roll 1d6 meaning they do 0-2 points of damage (depending on if they roll a 1, 2-5 or a 6). Assuming that the target had no Resistant Defence. If the target has 1 point of Resistant Defence, then the attacker not only needs to hit, but then needs to roll a six in addition in order to damage. A level of Resistant Defence that even the lightest of armours provide.

 

I think my players are really, really going to struggle with this. And I'm definitely going to have to simplify to keep away some of the more confusing terminology like "Normal Damage" being something you almost never see.

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To me, it's "normal" because the most common dice rolling mechanic for effect is to add up all the points on the dice for the main effect (STUN) and use the "1 is 0, 2-5 is 1, 6 is 2" model for counting other effects (BOD and Flash). Killing damage is different, so it is not "normal".

 

One of the most important things to learn in Hero is not to take the labels of mechanics as literal dictionary terminology - they're shorthand labels, no more.

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One of the most important things to learn in Hero is not to take the labels of mechanics as literal dictionary terminology - they're shorthand labels, no more.

 

Which is as I said - were I computer capable of reassigning meanings to things arbitrarily, this is what I would do. But it actually requires mental effort to keep overcoming the cognitive dissonance of terms used in the game that are in conflict with what I consider accustomed meanings. This isn't the first time I've been tripped up by this with this game. It seems to happen a lot.

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Which is as I said - were I computer capable of reassigning meanings to things arbitrarily, this is what I would do. But it actually requires mental effort to keep overcoming the cognitive dissonance of terms used in the game that are in conflict with what I consider accustomed meanings. This isn't the first time I've been tripped up by this with this game. It seems to happen a lot.

 

 

Anther thing that people tend to not mention or skim over is that the terminology used is 100% accurate in meaning and use, for the 80's & 90's.  I read my Superhero comics from that era and they are Superhero comics.   The last comics I read was when I bought a wide sample of Rebirth when it started, I noted that there were a vast number of "people with powers" operating as borderline vigilantes and/or blood bathed killing machines with a small (very very very small) number of vigilantes holding back on most (but not all) maiming.  And I saw only two characters that would have qualified as a SuperHero in the day.    Of course I stopped reading after that disappointing weekend so there could be more Superheros I didn't see. 

 

The point being that genre has all but been lost by now.  What was "Normal" back then is not now.  Just like playing a Pulp game and running into a 1980's trope because the writer/GM really doesn't know what Pulp is.   Normal as a definition is a very flexible term. 

 

Just run with Normal as Hero's baseline normal damage and Killing as Hero's more lethal damage version. 

Beyond that the terms usually follow the dictionary definition, not the colloquial slang definition.  

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Even in Fantasy Hero, I've no problem with it being called "Normal" Damage because "Normal" Damage is what Strength gives you the ability to cause, and everyone has a Strength score. Killing damage is special (i.e. not Normal) because nobody gets it for free. Knights pay for their swords (or for weapon familiarity with swords they pay money for instead of CP), and dragons pay CP for their deadly claw or bite attacks. If it makes it easier for you and your players, refer to it as Strength damage; just don't forget that that is what the rule book is referring to when they say that you take 10d6 Normal Damage from a 20m fall.

 

Perhaps it is because I've been playing table-top games for 25ish years (or maybe I'm secretly a computer and my mama never told me), but it generally doesn't matter to me what they call a given Game Element so long as the term is used consistently. Games always have a few unique definitions for otherwise common terms, and it is something you get used to the longer you work with a given system. For example, D&D/Pathfinder has this thing called "Armor Class" (or AC). Yet despite it's name, there are dozens of different sources of "armor class" bonuses besides the armor you are wearing, including your Dexterity bonus.

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Thanks. So it's a genre artifact. I'd honestly quibble with it even in a comic book game given that it lists examples of killing attacks including claws or a dagger, but being whacked with an uprooted telephone pole is not. But I suppose a Normal Attack still does Body damage which could kill someone so it works in principle.

 

So should I pretty much disregard "Normal Damage" except in rare circumstances such as the aforementioned bare-knuckle fight?

Depends on what you consider "rare circumstances."

 

You fall into a pit trap: Take Normal Damage.

 

A wizard hits you with a fireball: Take Normal Damage.

 

A Giant throws a boulder at you: Take Normal Damage.

 

A giant python throws its coils about you and tries to crush the life out of you: Take Normal Damage.

 

An Ogre clobbers you with a club: Take Normal Damage.

 

But yeah, in most fantasy games you are probably going to be facing swords and axes and other Killing Damage attacks more often.

 

 

 

I'm honestly struggling more and more with all of this as I go on. I'm sure if I were a computer for which terms like "Normal Damage" and "Killing Damage" were just labels with no intrinsic meaning, I would not find it so disorientating. But I am not and I find myself repeatedly having to detach words from their ordinary meaning in order to make sense of it.

 

So if I disregard "Normal Damage", I'm basically left with the following:

 

KA: roll a number of dice, damage is the number of dice plus or minus one for each six or one respectively.

I'm sorry. No, you don't add or subtract BOD for sixes or ones when rolling Killing Attacks.

 

THEN roll 1d3 and multiply it to also do Stun damage. Subtract the Resistant Defence (whether Energy or Physical as appropriate) from the Body damage and the Resistant Defence + Non-Resistant Defence from the Stun damage.

Unless you're using Hit Locations. Instead of rolling 1d3, if it makes it easier for you, you could just always double the BOD to get the STUN total.

 

 

So if a character has a dagger (example from the book) and less than 15 Strength, they would roll 1d6 meaning they do 0-2 points of damage (depending on if they roll a 1, 2-5 or a 6).

No, you're getting confused with the mechanics for Normal Damage. For a Killing Attack, if you roll 1d6 you will get from 1 to 6 pts of BODy damage.

 

Assuming that the target had no Resistant Defence. If the target has 1 point of Resistant Defence, then the attacker not only needs to hit, but then needs to roll a six in addition in order to damage. A level of Resistant Defence that even the lightest of armours provide.

 

I think my players are really, really going to struggle with this. And I'm definitely going to have to simplify to keep away some of the more confusing terminology like "Normal Damage" being something you almost never see.

As Cantriped points out, I don't think it's any more confusing than "Armor Class." It's just less familiar.

 

Now that you know that when you roll a Killing Attack, the number on the dice is the number of BOD done, does it make more sense? you must have been wondering how anyone ever takes damage, the way you thought it worked.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Getting run over by a palindromedary is Normal Damage (normal for me anyway)

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Okay. I realise that part of what I've said is contentious to some. I also realise that like an iceberg the complaint is the only visible part. I have a lot of respect for the Hero system which, though I am new to it, I have been very impressed by. It's just for the past hour and a half I have been giving myself an ever-increasing headache trying to work out how to create an alternative bear form for a druid. Figure out what power I want, try to figure out what counts towards the points value of a form and how to handle having the same mental stats and trying (and failing) to figure out what happens when the player spends points to improve their normal form and it suddenly tips over from being the cheaper form to the more expensive and if by having the multiform they have to pay twice to increase their mental stats now or what. And eyes still spinning from that I try to build the actual bear which involves a lot of looking back and forth at average human stats, at the wolf in FHC and then trying to figure out what sort of damage a bear's paws do, their jaws do and if they're in the woods if they do doo. I'm cross-referencing to the points cost of Stun vs. Body to try and figure out the intent of the system if it's meant that people typically pass out from Stun damage before dying, notice a hitherto unspotted rule about getting stunned if you take more stun points than some attribute in one go and all sorts of other things. It's a lot to manage and I stand by what I said - when everything you're looking at in the FH book is saying KA and all the examples you come up with seem to fit into KA, it IS confusing if the book keeps repeating that most damage is "Normal" damage. And I know my players - this is is already going to be very confusing for some of them to handle. Even the "take your OCV, add 11, subtract the number you roll, you can hit this or lower" is going to be hard for a couple of them. And then once they've worked out if they've hit, there's the two part damage roll where they take the first result, multiply by the second result, subtract each calculated outcome to the separate and appropriate attribute totals after deducting the appropriate damage negation value (which is different for each). Roll -> Add -> Subtract -> Compare -> Roll Again -> Multiply -> Separate -> Subtract twice (resistance) -> Subtract twice again (recording damage). Believe me - they are going to struggle and this is the system I want to sell them on as a replacement for D&D 5e! I will be trying to minimise confusing terminology as much as possible and I'm afraid that's going to include referring to something as "Normal damage" when it's actually "atypical damage".

 

But like I say, in a question thread, all you see is the exhausted confusion. There is a lot of genuine respect for this system, I promise.

 

Depends on what you consider "rare circumstances."

 

You fall into a pit trap: Take Normal Damage.

 

A wizard hits you with a fireball: Take Normal Damage.

 

A Giant throws a boulder at you: Take Normal Damage.

 

A giant python throws its coils about you and tries to crush the life out of you: Take Normal Damage.

 

An Ogre clobbers you with a club: Take Normal Damage.

 

But yeah, in most fantasy games you are probably going to be facing swords and axes and other Killing Damage attacks more often.

Okay, these all confuse me, I'm afraid. Yes, all of them except I suppose the giant python. A pit trap is Normal Damage. If it has spikes at the bottom I presume it becomes Killing Damage? A warhammer is listed as killing damage in FH but on looking just now I see that a club or a quarterstaff are both listed as "N" (Normal damage). They also do a tonne more damage. Given that all armour in this book gives equivalent resistant and non-resistant armour at the same time. So looking at the taking damage summary in the book (6e, pg. 104), that seems to mean to me that armour counts for double against Normal Damage because you subtract both of them. Is that right? Doesn't that produce some weird artefacts such as if you're fighting naked people you're better off with a club than a sword?

 

 

I'm sorry. No, you don't add or subtract BOD for sixes or ones when rolling Killing Attacks.

You're right. I was mistaken. What I had was for for Normal Damage and I was confused about that as well. Okay, it's starting to become a little clearer to me now - thank you. So a short sword in the book does 1d6 HKA, so you roll 1d6 and that's how much BODY damage the target takes (before deducting damage resistance). It will also do result times 1d3 Stun. A quarterstaff is 4d6 and ALL of that is Stun but it will ALSO do 4 points of BODY damage +1 for each six, -1 for each 1 (again before deductions). So we have two significantly different damage calculations for Killing and Normal, and Killing is the more complex. Killing is also the one I would normally expect to be using except for one player with a quarterstaff who will have to use a different system.

 

I'm confused as Hell again now though because I thought you calculated the Stun damage from a HKA by rolling a d3 and multiplying the Body damage by the result. But in the example given it says the player rolls a 3 and therefore multiplies by three. TO me, a 1/2d6 is a 1d3. I.e. 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3. I've just spent ten minutes looking through the book trying to find definitions for 1/4 d6, 1/2d6, etc. and failing. I would have thought it would be in the same block sa where it tells you what 1d6, 2d6 is, etc. (on page 12 at the start) but it doesn't seem to be. So I have no idea how to intuit what the different outcome likelihoods of HKA might be. I'm guessing that if it is a 1d3 then it will be something like a third of equivalent Normal Damage on average. BUT I CAN'T TELL.

 

Unless you're using Hit Locations. Instead of rolling 1d3, if it makes it easier for you, you could just always double the BOD to get the STUN total.

I was planning to use Hit Locations, but given the complexity I'm struggling with so far I think I'm just going to give up on that particular aspiration.

 

As Cantriped points out, I don't think it's any more confusing than "Armor Class." It's just less familiar.

I don't find Armour Class confusing. I never did. I do find this confusing. It's not an issue of familiarity. If you're talking terminology then you can start with the fact that Armour Class doesn't overlap with existing terminology - it's a unique phrase invented for the Dungeons and Dragons game and the first thing someone does on encountering it is to realise they don't know what it is and go find out. "Normal damage" is English language and the first thing someone does on encountering the phrase is assume that it means normal damage. The book compounds this by in a number of places telling you that it IS in fact the normal damage and killing damage is a rarer exception. Except it isn't.

 

Now that you know that when you roll a Killing Attack, the number on the dice is the number of BOD done, does it make more sense? you must have been wondering how anyone ever takes damage, the way you thought it worked.

It does make more sense now, thank you. As you noticed, I was confusing it with Normal Damage.

 

Getting run over by a palindromedary is Normal Damage (normal for me anyway)

How much do I take for trying to understand all this and figure out how I'll ever explain it all to my players? I'm sorry - again, there's a lot about this system that is very impressive, but I am struggling here a lot. To the point that I'm doubting that I can run this.

 

 

EDIT: I've just realised that you start off with 2 PD as your base value so the comment about switching to non-lethal weapons when fighting naked people may be wrong. I still need to find the definition of 1/2d6 in the book somewhere. I was sure it meant d3 but the example contadicts that or else is using some weird system where 1 and 4 = 1, 2 and 5 = 2 and so forth.

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It's important to keep in mind that normal damage still causes damage to BODY, in otherwords, damage that could kill. It's just less likely, moreso given the defenses commonly given as the baselines for stats like PD and ED.

 

There is actually a thread in the Hero System discussion forum on placing limits on PD and ED. So, if you wanted, you could require characters to take a limitation that only allowed a fraction of their defenses to apply to BODY damage from normal attacks, and then you have a more realistic feel where one might, in a narrow set of circumstances, be killed in a fist fight, more commonly be clubbed to death, etc.

 

Think of normal damage as being somewhat shocking, yes, it might kill, but it's far more likely to stun or knock out than kill.

 

Think of killing damage as specifically built to kill, weapons that, if used as intended, are going to do very bad things that normal people won't easily heal from.

 

That said, I actually think that, to model different feels, gritty, super, nerfy, it would actually be simpler, aside from having to rebuild them all, to change the weapon damages rather than to monkey with other things. But many people have taken the latter path, it's perfectly possible.

 

So, want the chance of death from a clubbing to be more applicable? Reduce the ability to apply straight PD to BODY damage against normal attacks by a limitation. Don't apply it to resistant defenses, because armor SHOULD protect pretty well against a club.

 

Just my thoughts.

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Thank you for joining us.  Excellent questions.

 

Here is how I explain normal damage vs. killing damage to my players when they are learning hero.

 

Explanation without gaming mechanics:

Normal damage is the damage a fist or a stick or rock would do to you if it hit you someone on your body.  Your skin and bones and flesh will provide you with some protection.  A normal person (someone who is not trained to fight and isn't a weight lifter) can throw a punch and a normal person can usually take a punch.  A lucky punch (say to the head or kidneys) might kill a person but it is pretty rare.

 

Killing damage is the damage of someone taking a knife and trying to cut you or stab you with it.  Your skin, bones, and flesh just are that protective against a knife (even more so from a bullet).

 

Explanation with gaming mechanics:

A normal person in Hero has 10 Strength and will roll 2d6 normal damage with their fist.  An average roll with 2d6 Normal Damage is going to result in 7 Stun and 2 Body.  A normal person has 2 Physical Defense.  So the Body damage will not get thru their physical defense, but 5 Stun will get thru.  A few hits like that might result in someone being knocked out.

 

Instead lets assume maximum damage with a punch to the vitals (kidney shot).  2d6 means 12 Stun and 4 Body.  Someone hit in the vitals (see page 184 FHC) with a normal attack means 1.5X Stun before defenses and 2X Body after defenses.  That means our normal opponent with 2 Physical Defense just took 16 Stun (at least Stunned and maybe knocked out) and 4 Body.

 

 

Now if we look at the same situation with a dagger that does 1d6 killing damage (and for the moment we will ignore if Strength gives any bonuses).  The average roll for Body will be 3 Body and if we are using hit locations to calculate Stun then most likely the hit location will be the chest so that would result in 9 Stun.  Because our normal person isn't wearing any resistant clothing/armor (t-shirt and jeans), their 2 Physical Defense will not protect the character.  They will take 9 Stun and 3 Body directly.  If they were wearing a leather jacket and it gave 1 resistant physical defense then they would only take 6 Stun (2 PD + 1 resistant PD) and 2 Body (1 resistant PD applies).

 

Again if the person was hit in their kidneys wearing for maximum damage just a t-shirt and jeans then the damage would be 24 Stun and 12 Body (Stun = 4xBody; and 2x Body after defenses) because they have no defense.  Basically dead.  Wearing the leather jacket would change things to 21 Stun and 10 Body.  They would be stunned, knocked out but not dead.

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Something else to think about has to do with how lethal do you want combat to be in your games.

 

If you want it to be lethal then everything should be a killing attack and resistant defenses should be limited to 3 or 4 resistant PD/ED.  You can also use the hit location rules.

 

If you want the combat to much more cinematic (less lethal) then you can either make most attacks normal attacks (guns, bows, knives, swords, etc) and a fair amount of resistant defenses.  Or you can make resistant defenses more available 5 to 8 resistant PD/ED.  And don't use hit locations.

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I was planning to use Hit Locations, but given the complexity I'm struggling with so far I think I'm just going to give up on that particular aspiration.

I cannot speak more highly of Hit Locations. I've always used Hit Locations in the games I run, but I have also played in games that didn't. Speaking from personal experience, it is a completely worthwhile Optional Rule. If you are worried about the time taken by adding an extra step: you can simply have your players roll for Hit Location alongside their Attack Roll (typically using two different sets of dice, with an understanding beforehand which are the Attack Dice, and which are the Location Dice). I'm not sure which source books you are using for 6th edition, but If you are worried about having to reference an obscure table in combat, you can have players use the standard 6th edition character sheet (as opposed to the version presented in Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete). The standard sheet includes the Hit Location Chart (with spaces to fill in section defenses, if any), as well as common called shot penalties, the Range Modifiers, and the shorthand versions of the Standard Maneuvers. The Standard Sheet should still be available in the Downloads section of this page, and is also the sheet out-putted to when you export a character from Hero Designer to PDF.

 

I feel like using Hit Locations gives my games an added level of dramatic realism you rarely see in other RPGs. I use the location rolled by an attack to inform the way I describe combat. Mechanically, using Hit Locations has several advantages: It serves as a kind of critical hit system, which meshes naturally with the existing mechanics for called shots. It negates the need to roll a separate "STUN Lottery" for Killing Attacks, which makes the whole process of rolling attacks more consistent. It also removes the necessity of having players make an Activation Roll on sectional armor (since you use the actual coverage instead).

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A warhammer is listed as killing damage in FH but on looking just now I see that a club or a quarterstaff are both listed as "N" (Normal damage). They also do a tonne more damage. Given that all armour in this book gives equivalent resistant and non-resistant armour at the same time. So looking at the taking damage summary in the book (6e, pg. 104), that seems to mean to me that armour counts for double against Normal Damage because you subtract both of them. Is that right? Doesn't that produce some weird artefacts such as if you're fighting naked people you're better off with a club than a sword?

You appear to be misunderstanding several aspects of what you are reading:

 

The first is regarding "Damage Classes" (or DCs), and what dice of Normal Damage vs. Killing Damage are actually worth. Those Normal Damage attacks which are rolling more dice are not necessarily more powerful attacks. In HERO System, 1d6 Killing is considered equivalent to 3d6 Normal. A 1d6 Ranged Killing Attack literally costs exactly the same number of CP as a 3d6 Blast (which causes Normal Damage), both are considered to be 3 DC attacks, and on average both will result in similar amounts of BODY Damage (3 BODY). Their differences lie in the fact that Normal Damage (like Falling) tends to cause more STUN because of the way the dice are counted, while Killing Damage (like swords) tend to cause more BODY because of how defenses are purchased.

 

The second is regarding "Resistant Defenses" (Like Armor). Simply put, they aren't counted twice against Normal Damage. When you suffer Normal or Killing damage, you reduce the amount of STUN dealt by that attack by the Total amount of the appropriate defense you have (regardless of whether it is resistant or not). Likewise you reduce the amount of BODY dealt by Normal Damage by the Total amount of the appropriate defense you have. However, unlike Normal Damage, you only reduce the amount of BODY dealt by Killing Damage by the amount of the appropriate Resistant​ defense you have.

 

For Example:

Tordek the Dwarven Fighter has 4 Physical Defense (PD), and he is wearing Full Plate which grants him 8 Resistant Physical Defense (rPD)...

Early in the day, Tordek is kicked in the chest by a Tikbalang (FHC 236) with 30 Strength (STR). The Tikbalang rolls 6d6 Normal Damage (6 DCs), and gets a perfectly average result (6 BODY, 21 STUN). Tordek has a total of 12 Physical Defense (4 PD + 8 rPD = 12); thus he takes 0 BODY and 9 STUN. Tordek is thankful the GM forgot to have it use it's claws, and the battle goes on.

Later that day, Todek is bitten in the chest by a Giant Spider (FHC 231) with 20 STR and a 1/2d6 HKA (2d6 w/STR). The Giant Spider rolls 2d6 Killing Damage (6 DCs), and once again gets a perfectly average result (7 BODY, 21 STUN). Tordek's 4 PD and 8 rPD reduce the STUN taken to 9 STUN, and his 8 rPD reduce the BODY taken to 0. Had the Giant Spider rolled a little better (9 BODY, 27 STUN); Tordek would have taken 1 BODY and 15 STUN and been poisoned by the Giant Spider's "Deadly Venom".

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I cannot speak more highly of Hit Locations. I've always used Hit Locations in the games I run, but I have also played in games that didn't. Speaking from personal experience, it is a completely worthwhile Optional Rule. If you are worried about the time taken by adding an extra step: you can simply have your players roll for Hit Location alongside their Attack Roll (typically using two different sets of dice, with an understanding beforehand which are the Attack Dice, and which are the Location Dice). I'm not sure which source books you are using for 6th edition, but If you are worried about having to reference an obscure table in combat, you can have players use the standard 6th edition character sheet (as opposed to the version presented in Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete). The standard sheet includes the Hit Location Chart (with spaces to fill in section defenses, if any), as well as common called shot penalties, the Range Modifiers, and the shorthand versions of the Standard Maneuvers. The Standard Sheet should still be available in the Downloads section of this page, and is also the sheet out-putted to when you export a character from Hero Designer to PDF.

 

I feel like using Hit Locations gives my games an added level of dramatic realism you rarely see in other RPGs. I use the location rolled by an attack to inform the way I describe combat. Mechanically, using Hit Locations has several advantages: It serves as a kind of critical hit system, which meshes naturally with the existing mechanics for called shots. It negates the need to roll a separate "STUN Lottery" for Killing Attacks, which makes the whole process of rolling attacks more consistent. It also removes the necessity of having players make an Activation Roll on sectional armor (since you use the actual coverage instead).

I am planning on using Fantasy Hero for my next campaign (and thus I am new as well), I have run games in different systems. For my current campaign I have been using GURPS. Anyway I originally decided against using Hit Locations and for a long time the players were fine with that. At some point though, they wanted to be able to disable a person's arm or shoot them in the head with a bow. So this created a situation where sometimes we use Hit Locations and sometimes not. I've come to realize that it is better to just use the feature consistently and seamlessly give the players the option of using it when they want to deal with the penalties.

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Okay. I realise that part of what I've said is contentious to some. I also realise that like an iceberg the complaint is the only visible part. I have a lot of respect for the Hero system which, though I am new to it, I have been very impressed by. It's just for the past hour and a half I have been giving myself an ever-increasing headache trying to work out how to create an alternative bear form for a druid. Figure out what power I want, try to figure out what counts towards the points value of a form and how to handle having the same mental stats and trying (and failing) to figure out what happens when the player spends points to improve their normal form and it suddenly tips over from being the cheaper form to the more expensive and if by having the multiform they have to pay twice to increase their mental stats now or what. And eyes still spinning from that I try to build the actual bear which involves a lot of looking back and forth at average human stats, at the wolf in FHC and then trying to figure out what sort of damage a bear's paws do, their jaws do and if they're in the woods if they do doo.

And here's an easy way to do that:

 

Figure out what abilities the druid has only in bear form. Give those abilities the Limitation "Only in Alternate ID (Bear)"

Figure out what abilities the druid has only in human form. Give those abilities the Limitation "Only in Alternate ID (Human)"

 

Buy a Shapeshift Power to look and feel like a bear, and define the way to change between the "Alternate IDs" as being the use of that Power. You don't have to use the Multiform power.

 

Now if you still want to and want to have an actual write up of a bear, I think there is one in the Hero System Bestiary. Just as other systems have their Monster Manuals and Compendiums, Hero has a number of useful books with stats for everything from normal animals to world eating monsters.

 

I'm cross-referencing to the points cost of Stun vs. Body to try and figure out the intent of the system if it's meant that people typically pass out from Stun damage before dying,

It is pretty common for people (and sometimes monsters) to go unconscious before dying, or instead of dying. It is ALSO quite possible for someone to be "mortally wounded" (at negative BODy and losing BODy each Turn as they bleed out) and still on their feet and running and fighting (positive STUN total) right up to the point they keel over dead.

 

Dead characters do not ordinarily take actions or participate in the game in a meaningful way.

 

notice a hitherto unspotted rule about getting stunned if you take more stun points than some attribute in one go and all sorts of other things.

Yes, that represents being knocked off balance, wind knocked out of you, temporarily overcome with the pain of a wound, etc. It's a way to make getting hurt "mean something" without instituting a "death spiral" of ever increasing penalties as some games do. Mechanically, it means one lost action and a phase spend with half DCV (making you an attractive target.)

 

It's a lot to manage and I stand by what I said - when everything you're looking at in the FH book is saying KA and all the examples you come up with seem to fit into KA, it IS confusing if the book keeps repeating that most damage is "Normal" damage. And I know my players - this is is already going to be very confusing for some of them to handle. Even the "take your OCV, add 11, subtract the number you roll, you can hit this or lower" is going to be hard for a couple of them.

I made a chart cross-referencing a "What My OCV is" axis with a "What I rolled" axis; I'm not sure if such a chart is in the rules but it is not hard to make one.

 

Of course, I started with 1st edition Advanced D&D so having a "to hit chart" comes naturally to me.

 

And then once they've worked out if they've hit, there's the two part damage roll where they take the first result, multiply by the second result, subtract each calculated outcome to the separate and appropriate attribute totals after deducting the appropriate damage negation value (which is different for each). Roll -> Add -> Subtract -> Compare -> Roll Again -> Multiply -> Separate -> Subtract twice (resistance) -> Subtract twice again (recording damage). Believe me - they are going to struggle and this is the system I want to sell them on as a replacement for D&D 5e! I will be trying to minimise confusing terminology as much as possible and I'm afraid that's going to include referring to something as "Normal damage" when it's actually "atypical damage".

So "normalize" your game. DON'T USE KILLING ATTACKS. Make everything Normal Damage, which is probably simpler to deal with.

 

Where a weapon would be 1d6 Killing, make it 3d6 Normal. If it's 1d6-1 or 1/2 d6 make it 2d6 Normal. If it's 1d6+1 Killing, make it 4d6 Normal. You can do this and make it really simple, or do this but say the BODy damage still gets through non-Resistant Defenses to make it slightly more complex but not as much as actually having Killing Attacks.

 

 

But like I say, in a question thread, all you see is the exhausted confusion. There is a lot of genuine respect for this system, I promise.

 

 

Okay, these all confuse me, I'm afraid. Yes, all of them except I suppose the giant python. A pit trap is Normal Damage. If it has spikes at the bottom I presume it becomes Killing Damage?

Yes, exactly!

 

A warhammer is listed as killing damage in FH but on looking just now I see that a club or a quarterstaff are both listed as "N" (Normal damage). They also do a tonne more damage.

No, it uses more dice to do similar damage.

 

If I recall correctly, a quarter staff does 4d6 Normal damage. That is an average of 14 STUN and 4 BOD.

 

If a mace does 1d6+1 Killing, an average roll would be about 4 or 5 BOD and 8 or 10 STUN.

 

Given that all armour in this book gives equivalent resistant and non-resistant armour at the same time. So looking at the taking damage summary in the book (6e, pg. 104), that seems to mean to me that armour counts for double against Normal Damage because you subtract both of them. Is that right?

I'm honestly not sure where you get the idea that armor counts double against Normal Damage. It doesn't.

 

Doesn't that produce some weird artefacts such as if you're fighting naked people you're better off with a club than a sword?

If your intention is to kill naked people, you are much better off with a sword. Even naked they get their basic Physical Defense against the club, but (unless they got COmbat Luck or something) they have no defense against a sword's BODy damage.

 

If your intention is to take naked people alive, you are better off with the club, which will injure them but probably knock them out before killing them.

 

 

You're right. I was mistaken. What I had was for for Normal Damage and I was confused about that as well. Okay, it's starting to become a little clearer to me now - thank you. So a short sword in the book does 1d6 HKA, so you roll 1d6 and that's how much BODY damage the target takes (before deducting damage resistance). It will also do result times 1d3 Stun. A quarterstaff is 4d6 and ALL of that is Stun but it will ALSO do 4 points of BODY damage +1 for each six, -1 for each 1 (again before deductions). So we have two significantly different damage calculations for Killing and Normal, and Killing is the more complex. Killing is also the one I would normally expect to be using except for one player with a quarterstaff who will have to use a different system.

 

I'm confused as Hell again now though because I thought you calculated the Stun damage from a HKA by rolling a d3 and multiplying the Body damage by the result. But in the example given it says the player rolls a 3 and therefore multiplies by three. TO me, a 1/2d6 is a 1d3. I.e. 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3. I've just spent ten minutes looking through the book trying to find definitions for 1/4 d6, 1/2d6, etc. and failing. I would have thought it would be in the same block sa where it tells you what 1d6, 2d6 is, etc. (on page 12 at the start) but it doesn't seem to be. So I have no idea how to intuit what the different outcome likelihoods of HKA might be. I'm guessing that if it is a 1d3 then it will be something like a third of equivalent Normal Damage on average. BUT I CAN'T TELL.

I can tell that you're frustrated. I'm sorry it was confusing. Yes, 1d3 is the same as 1/2 d6 so where it says in the example "the player rolled a 3" it means the actual numeral showing on the physical die was either 5 or 6. I don't think it occurred to anyone that this could be ambiguous, although of course I can see how now.

 

I HAVE POSTED MORE THAN THE ALLOWED NUMBER OF BLOCKS OF TEXT. But it doesn't tell me what the allowed number is. There are now 10. If that is allowed, this will post now, but with deleted materiel.

 

Well it IS normal damage until someone picks up a weapon. The thing is, in most fantasy, lots of people are carrying weapons.

 

But seriously, think about my suggestion of just Normalizing your game and running it with Normal Damage only.

 

As for Hit Locations, you can split the difference - don't use them, UNLESS someone wants to take the penalty and take a Called Shot. If you do that, you may want to use the Impair and Disable rules for called shots too, so that someone who decides to target legs to keep an enemy from running away or to target someone's sword hand can do so effectively.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says now we see if we can post this monstrosity

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Knasser.  Your problem is in terminology and you are free to change that.  I change lots when I present a game to my group - I want them to engage with the game, not the system.

 

HERO has two ways to do damage.  it is up to you, as GM, to decide to use one or both of them.  if it will be easier to make everything one kind of damage, then go with that.  Normal damage is the baseline damage dealing in the system - it does both STUN and BODY but caters more to a cinematic style of gaming where people rarely die even when you are shooting at them (think A-team).  Killing damage is designed to deliver more BODY to a target and will bypass a lot of the normal kind of defences people have.  You can decide to run the game using either one.

 

Your question of sword and quarterstaff is a decent one, D&D makes no distinction about such things but it then has to compromise when players want to knock someone out rather than kill them (all the subdual damage stuff gets quite complex).  In HERO they decided a quarterstaff was more of a subduing weapon than killing weapon and gave it normal damage.  There would be nothing preventing you from listing it with killing damage to keep everything simple.

 

Most people coming to HERO for the first time are overwhelmed by the number of rules etc.  They are there to help you get the game you want but there is nothing that says you need to use them.

 

As for the shape-shift?  It can be really simple.  You could decide how many points it will cost to transform into a bear and provide the player with the stats for a bear provided in one of the books.  Give all the XP to the main character - the bear will always be a bear.  Now.  If you want a more complex game where the player gets better at being a bear, there are rules that allow you to do that.  personally I would ignore all of those to begin with and stick with a simple game that everyone can get used to.

 

As you become more confident with the system there are lots more shortcuts and ways to do stuff but dont let the options get in the way of your ability to game the system right now.  The actual core of the system is pretty simple but you can hack it to do almost whatever you want though there is no requirement to do so.

 

Decide what you want, scale back most of the complexity - come to us with questions and you will get a variety of responses on how to do it.  Then choose the one that suits you and your game best (there is no absolutely right answer)

 

 

Doc

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Effects from Damage:

 

Stunned:  This is when the amount of Stun damage, after applying the appropriate defenses is greater that or equal to the target's constitution.  In non-gaming terms think of a boxing match where the boxer takes a good hit and is standing there dazed but has not hit the mat yet.  This video has 5x where Floyd Mayweather was stunned during a boxing match.  The first example IMO is exactly what I think of in terms of Hero.

 

Knocked Out: This is when the amount of Stun the character drops below zero.  Normally being knocked out takes a long time in a fight.  A good movie example of this is from They Live, watch the video and notice at 4:11 the character on the ground is basically knocked out (just barely).  Also notice he got at least two or three recoveries and then got back up and kept fighting.

 

Bleeding to Death:  When a character's body is below zero they start to bleed to death.  The final sword fight in Rob Roy is a good example of a character being slowly stuck to death.

 

Each of these effects can happen from both normal and killing attacks. 

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Okay. So I'm ready to give this another go. In particular I am prioritising how I can make this simple for my players both to learn and in practice. Thank you for all the help.

 

It's possible that the example you're talking about was an error of some kind in the book, which has been known to happen. 1/2d6 is the same thing as 1d6 divided by 2, or 1d3. It's usually referred to as 1/2d6 in Hero.

The example is a sidebar on pg.98 of the main 6e book. It says "Armadillo then rolls 1/2d6 for his STUN Multiplier, rolling a 3. Thus the STUN damage done is 7 x 3 = 21 STUN". As another poster suggests, it probably means the player rolled a 5 or 6 which evaluates to 3. If it had either said "rolls a 3 on a 1d3" or more understandably "gets 3" or "scores 3", I would have not spent ten minutes trying to make sense of it and searching through the book for definitions of 1/2d6. That example is confusing as Hell.

 

Explanation with gaming mechanics:

A normal person in Hero has 10 Strength and will roll 2d6 normal damage with their fist. An average roll with 2d6 Normal Damage is going to result in 7 Stun and 2 Body. A normal person has 2 Physical Defense. So the Body damage will not get thru their physical defense, but 5 Stun will get thru. A few hits like that might result in someone being knocked out.

 

Instead lets assume maximum damage with a punch to the vitals (kidney shot). 2d6 means 12 Stun and 4 Body. Someone hit in the vitals (see page 184 FHC) with a normal attack means 1.5X Stun before defenses and 2X Body after defenses. That means our normal opponent with 2 Physical Defense just took 16 Stun (at least Stunned and maybe knocked out) and 4 Body.

 

Now if we look at the same situation with a dagger that does 1d6 killing damage (and for the moment we will ignore if Strength gives any bonuses). The average roll for Body will be 3 Body and if we are using hit locations to calculate Stun then most likely the hit location will be the chest so that would result in 9 Stun. Because our normal person isn't wearing any resistant clothing/armor (t-shirt and jeans), their 2 Physical Defense will not protect the character. They will take 9 Stun and 3 Body directly. If they were wearing a leather jacket and it gave 1 resistant physical defense then they would only take 6 Stun (2 PD + 1 resistant PD) and 2 Body (1 resistant PD applies).

 

Again if the person was hit in their kidneys wearing for maximum damage just a t-shirt and jeans then the damage would be 24 Stun and 12 Body (Stun = 4xBody; and 2x Body after defenses) because they have no defense. Basically dead. Wearing the leather jacket would change things to 21 Stun and 10 Body. They would be stunned, knocked out but not dead.

Thank you especially - the above is really helpful because one thing that I am finding hard is to get a feel for intent and scale in this system.

 

That said, I actually think that, to model different feels, gritty, super, nerfy, it would actually be simpler, aside from having to rebuild them all, to change the weapon damages rather than to monkey with other things. But many people have taken the latter path, it's perfectly possible.

 

So, want the chance of death from a clubbing to be more applicable? Reduce the ability to apply straight PD to BODY damage against normal attacks by a limitation. Don't apply it to resistant defenses, because armor SHOULD protect pretty well against a club.

 

Just my thoughts.

Something else to think about has to do with how lethal do you want combat to be in your games.

 

If you want it to be lethal then everything should be a killing attack and resistant defenses should be limited to 3 or 4 resistant PD/ED. You can also use the hit location rules.

 

If you want the combat to much more cinematic (less lethal) then you can either make most attacks normal attacks (guns, bows, knives, swords, etc) and a fair amount of resistant defenses. Or you can make resistant defenses more available 5 to 8 resistant PD/ED. And don't use hit locations.

I don't know whether I have a preference per se for whether I want the game to be more or less lethal. I certainly want a reasonable chance for people to die, I don't want them having to all roll up new characters because I misjudged how many goblins to put in an encounter by two. I like the idea of having stun damage, I'm just wary of the complexity and some of the examples don't make sense to me - e.g. a fireball example someone gave earlier of being Normal Damage when I would think being burnt is far more likely to do physical damage than to knock someone out. So I'm keeping both options on the table for now, I guess.

 

I cannot speak more highly of Hit Locations. I've always used Hit Locations in the games I run, but I have also played in games that didn't. Speaking from personal experience, it is a completely worthwhile Optional Rule. If you are worried about the time taken by adding an extra step: you can simply have your players roll for Hit Location alongside their Attack Roll (typically using two different sets of dice, with an understanding beforehand which are the Attack Dice, and which are the Location Dice). I'm not sure which source books you are using for 6th edition, but If you are worried about having to reference an obscure table in combat, you can have players use the standard 6th edition character sheet (as opposed to the version presented in Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete). The standard sheet includes the Hit Location Chart (with spaces to fill in section defenses, if any), as well as common called shot penalties, the Range Modifiers, and the shorthand versions of the Standard Maneuvers. The Standard Sheet should still be available in the Downloads section of this page, and is also the sheet out-putted to when you export a character from Hero Designer to PDF.

 

I feel like using Hit Locations gives my games an added level of dramatic realism you rarely see in other RPGs. I use the location rolled by an attack to inform the way I describe combat. Mechanically, using Hit Locations has several advantages: It serves as a kind of critical hit system, which meshes naturally with the existing mechanics for called shots. It negates the need to roll a separate "STUN Lottery" for Killing Attacks, which makes the whole process of rolling attacks more consistent. It also removes the necessity of having players make an Activation Roll on sectional armor (since you use the actual coverage instead).

 

I'm using the 6e books bought from the website. I have the bundle containing the two core books, FH and FHC. I would really like to use Hit Locations. I think if I stripped it down to two dice rather than three it might be a bit more intuitive for my players. E.g. "each attack, roll five dice. The three are whether you hit or not and the two are where you hit". Then I can give them each three blue dice, two red dice. I think the odd numbers would save a lot of "which colour is which" style conversations. I don't need all the locations on the list in the book. How does the following look as a draft?

 

 

Head 2

Hand 3

Arm 4-5

Torso 6 - 8

Legs 9 - 10

Foot 12

 

Or I might go with percentile dice as I have a load of them around anyway. Not everything has to be d6, I guess. ;) Anyway, removing the separate STUN Multiplier roll is a very big plus. I might also simplify the Stun multipliers too - x2 for Head, x1 for most of the rest.

 

The second is regarding "Resistant Defenses" (Like Armor). Simply put, they aren't counted twice against Normal Damage. When you suffer Normal or Killing damage, you reduce the amount of STUN dealt by that attack by the Total amount of the appropriate defense you have (regardless of whether it is resistant or not). Likewise you reduce the amount of BODY dealt by Normal Damage by the Total amount of the appropriate defense you have. However, unlike Normal Damage, you only reduce the amount of BODY dealt by Killing Damage by the amount of the appropriate Resistant​ defense you have.

 

The reason I said counted twice was because I was referring to the armours in FH. It said that due to the prevalence of Killing Damage in fantasy settings, armour should be regarded as having both normal PD and also resistant PD of the same value. From my reading of Normal Damage, you take both the Normal AND the Resistant defence and add them to determine how much Normal damage is subtracted. (6e vol.2,pg.104). This seems to be true for both Stun and Body damage. For Killing Damage, you subtract only the Resistant damage. Is my reading wrong?

 

For Example:

Tordek the Dwarven Fighter has 4 Physical Defense (PD), and he is wearing Full Plate which grants him 8 Resistant Physical Defense (rPD)...

Early in the day, Tordek is kicked in the chest by a Tikbalang (FHC 236) with 30 Strength (STR). The Tikbalang rolls 6d6 Normal Damage (6 DCs), and gets a perfectly average result (6 BODY, 21 STUN). Tordek has a total of 12 Physical Defense (4 PD + 8 rPD = 12); thus he takes 0 BODY and 9 STUN. Tordek is thankful the GM forgot to have it use it's claws, and the battle goes on.

Later that day, Todek is bitten in the chest by a Giant Spider (FHC 231) with 20 STR and a 1/2d6 HKA (2d6 w/STR). The Giant Spider rolls 2d6 Killing Damage (6 DCs), and once again gets a perfectly average result (7 BODY, 21 STUN). Tordek's 4 PD and 8 rPD reduce the STUN taken to 9 STUN, and his 8 rPD reduce the BODY taken to 0. Had the Giant Spider rolled a little better (9 BODY, 27 STUN); Tordek would have taken 1 BODY and 15 STUN and been poisoned by the Giant Spider's "Deadly Venom".

Okay. So I understand what you're saying and the maths, so it seems the issue is with the interpretation of the armour. On reading it a few more times it says it provides PD and ED in equal amounts. Immediately before that it talks about how armour is built with resistant protection. I misread it last night and thought it said equal amounts of resistant and non-resistant. In my defence, the total page count of these books is 1,250. It's a lot to take in! Thanks for explaining that with examples. Once I re-read it, it's hard to see how I read it wrong to begin with.

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Effects from Damage:

 

Stunned:  This is when the amount of Stun damage, after applying the appropriate defenses is greater that or equal to the target's constitution.  In non-gaming terms think of a boxing match where the boxer takes a good hit and is standing there dazed but has not hit the mat yet.  This video has 5x where Floyd Mayweather was stunned during a boxing match.  The first example IMO is exactly what I think of in terms of Hero.

 

Knocked Out: This is when the amount of Stun the character drops below zero.  Normally being knocked out takes a long time in a fight.  A good movie example of this is from They Live, watch the video and notice at 4:11 the character on the ground is basically knocked out (just barely).  Also notice he got at least two or three recoveries and then got back up and kept fighting.

 

Bleeding to Death:  When a character's body is below zero they start to bleed to death.  The final sword fight in Rob Roy is a good example of a character being slowly stuck to death.

 

Each of these effects can happen from both normal and killing attacks.

I had to give you a Like for referencing one of the greatest fight scenes I've ever seen in a film. That extended punch-up in They Live is not only one of the most hillarious and brutal slugfests ever put to celluloid, but one of the most realistic too. I've had a fight that went like that. :D

 

I think it's starting to slowly congeal now.

 

EDIT: Okay, re-watching it now. Maybe not completely realistic in the number of straight-up punches to the face they take full on, but the way they keep stopping and then getting back into, talking and panting with exhaustion. That's spot on! :D

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I'm using the 6e books bought from the website. I have the bundle containing the two core books, FH and FHC.

Since you have access to Fantasy Hero Complete​, I highly recommend treating it as your primary rules reference to start out. FHC is better organized, easier to read, and a much easier source for actually learning the core principles of the game than the core 6th edition books (in my opinion). My advice is to read FHC cover to cover at least once, and then to reread the chapters "Characters and the World" and "Combat" at least once more, and again an hour or two before starting any given gaming session.

Once you've drilled the core principles sufficiently, then you should start reading ​Fantasy Hero; It has a huge amount of great advice for actually running a game, and most of my favorite additional/optional rules for a campaign can be found therein.

I only recommend using the Core Books when you want to get into exhaustive detail regarding a specific subject or you want to toolkit (write house rules)... The Core Books contain a lot of useful optional/variant rules that are great once you are experienced, but which make wrapping your head around the core principles of the game much more difficult. Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete​ were (in my opinion successful) attempts to present the ruleset in a more approachable "buy-it-and-game-the-same-day" kind of format.

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