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Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies


Brian Stanfield

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I discovered, contrary to much of what you read online, HERO is very easy to play once you're at the table. After I got my hands on Fantasy Hero Complete, I used the pregens found in the book to stumble my way through a few sessions where a 10 year old had no trouble with gameplay execution. Even at the time I knew that I was ignoring some things just to get the game moving. At that stage, just seeing things such as Active Points in a writeup is distracting. While it may be helpful for connecting that particular thing to the deeper power of HERO, it helped make the GM handwaving feel uncertain, which doesn't boost confidence.

In addition, things like Active Points didn't help me keep running that game with HERO. A few sessions in, it was clear that one of the PCs was too powerful in comparison to the others. I sat down to see if I could rebalance everyone but I just didn't grok enough of the system to make it happen. I just rebooted it with HeroQuest 2.

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I discovered, contrary to much of what you read online, HERO is very easy to play once you're at the table.

 

 

It is, and that's what we're trying to get people past: that initial reputation.  It really is a pretty simple system, but its presented in an intimidating way and has a reputation for complexity.  So a simple intro to help people in would be useful to get past that myth. An introductory tutorial to help learn the basics of the system and get the GM comfortable with how things work, then a campaign to help people start without needing to do everything from scratch I believe would be a huge help.

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I think perhaps that your original post was misinterpreted as being an ernest attempt at presenting a healing potion. I took it to be an over-the-top, humorous example, although it was a little lost in the context of the longer post.

 

 

 

If I am honest, I think a lot of it was just my response to seeing a statement that it couldn't be done. If someone tells me I can't do something and I know I can and especially if I know I can do it easily, I will almost automatically do it.

 

It may also be that I don't like how the Healing Power works in the game and prefer to work around it if I can. To bring it on topic, consider that as Cantriped points out, it's an Adjustment Power. Therefore, it has halved effect on "Defensive Abilities." That category includes END, STUN, and BOD.  So the very things Healing is almost always going to be bought to effect, it only has half effect on - now THAT's something that can be confusing to a new prospective player isn't it?

 

And then there's the "only benefit a person once per day, kind of" restriction. I would consider the Healing Power to be "Incredibly Convoluted" to borrow a phrase, just by default.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says "Compelled to demonstrate he can when told he can't" is a Complication on Lucius Alexander's character sheet

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To bring it on topic, consider that as Cantriped points out, it's an Adjustment Power. Therefore, it has halved effect on "Defensive Abilities." That category includes END, STUN, and BOD.  So the very things Healing is almost always going to be bought to effect, it only has half effect on - now THAT's something that can be confusing to a new prospective player isn't it?

I don't think that interpretation of the RAW is correct... The rule you are talking about is "Adjusting Defense Powers" (CC 46; FHC 55) and specifies that the "effect of any Adjustment Power that increases or decreases any of the following is halved". Aid and Absorption use the term "increase" and Drain uses the term "decrease" respectively. Healing, although also an Adjustment power, does not "increase" or "decrease" the affected game elements, it allows "a character to restore a lost or reduced" game elements. As such I do not think Healing is subject to aforementioned clause in "Adjusting Defense Powers".

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I don't think that interpretation of the RAW is correct... The rule you are talking about is "Adjusting Defense Powers" (CC 46; FHC 55) and specifies that the "effect of any Adjustment Power that increases or decreases any of the following is halved". Aid and Absorption use the term "increase" and Drain uses the term "decrease" respectively. Healing, although also an Adjustment power, does not "increase" or "decrease" the affected game elements, it allows "a character to restore a lost or reduced" game elements. As such I do not think Healing is subject to aforementioned clause in "Adjusting Defense Powers".

 

Well reasoned. However, I did ask this of Mr. Long some time ago.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91902-does-healing-have-half-effect-on-bod-stun-end/?do=findComment&comment=2453819

 

His response was

 

Yes. To quote a previous answer that I'm not sure has been posted in the FAQ yet:  "n the case of Healing applied to STUN, BODY, and other “defensive Characteristics” (see 6E1 141), the effect of the Healing is halved. The character using Healing can still Heal up to the maximum shown on the dice, but the halving effect still limits how much total STUN and BODY the target regains. However, the GM may choose to ignore this rule in the case of Healing STUN and/or BODY in the interest of streamlining game play."

 

But I do like your answer.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It's not required to have a palindromedary in a Hero starter kit. It is required to have a palindromedary in a Lucius Alexander tagline.

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It may also be that I don't like how the Healing Power works in the game and prefer to work around it if I can. To bring it on topic, consider that as Cantriped points out, it's an Adjustment Power. Therefore, it has halved effect on "Defensive Abilities." That category includes END, STUN, and BOD.  So the very things Healing is almost always going to be bought to effect, it only has half effect on - now THAT's something that can be confusing to a new prospective player isn't it?

 

 

6e1 p. 234 talks about Simplified Healing, for STUN and BODY.  Roll the dice; the total on the dice is the amount of STUN healed, while the Normal Damage BODY on the dice is the amount of BODY healed.  The example given in the book doesn't halve the healing amount. 

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I'll just have to add that to the (very small) list of topics I believe Steven S. Long is wrong about. Of course for the edition he is referencing he might be right, I skipped straight from 5th edition to CC/FHC as my primary rules reference... so I don't actually know the core 6th edition books that well. It would be nice if there were a similarly exclusive board for Champions Complete and ​Fantasy Hero Complete​ that only Derek Hiemforth and Michael Surbrook could respond to.

 

That being said, I do really appreciate that Mr. Long still answers rules questions on a daily basis. I much prefer it to the historical revisionism practiced by Paizo.

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I'll just have to add that to the (very small) list of topics I believe Steven S. Long is wrong about. Of course for the edition he is referencing he might be right, I skipped straight from 5th edition to CC/FHC as my primary rules reference... so I don't actually know the core 6th edition books that well. It would be nice if there were a similarly exclusive board for Champions Complete and ​Fantasy Hero Complete​ that only Derek Hiemforth and Michael Surbrook could respond to.

 

CC p. 70, FHC p. 83.

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CC p. 70, FHC p. 83.

 

​I get that you are pointing me to Healing (and I assume to Simplified Healing)... but I'm not sure why.

Perhaps I gave you the wrong impression (in which case I apologize) but the text you quoted was in response to Lucius reposting an answer Steve Long gave regarding whether you halve the effect of Healing BODY. Mr. Long says yes and I say no.

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The character using Healing can still Heal up to the maximum shown on the dice, but the halving effect still limits how much total STUN and BODY the target regains.

 

I don't get this at all. You can heal up to the maximum, but the halving effect is still in effect? Wouldn't that be only half the maximum?

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I don't get this at all. You can heal up to the maximum, but the halving effect is still in effect? Wouldn't that be only half the maximum?

Yes and No... the Effect rolled would be halved, the "Maximum Effect" is a different rule based upon the number of dice being rolled.

 

For example, for Healing STUN 2d6 the maximum effect would be 12 CP worth of STUN (or 24 STUN). However, if we are halving the effect, and you rolled a perfectly average total of 7 on your Healing Dice, you would only restore 8 STUN: 7 / 2 = 3.5 CP, you round up (in the player's favor) to 4 CP, 4 CP of STUN = 8 STUN, ergo you heal 8 STUN. 

However because the next result only replaces the previous result, its impossible to actually roll 24 STUN; meaning that although the Maximum Effect is 24 STUN, the effective maximum effect would be 12 STUN (or 6 CP)... Unless the player to put Cumulative (FHC 120) on their Healing or the GM used the Easy Maximizing option (FHC 83).

 

However, I maintain that Steven Long is incorrect in this case, and that Healing defensive attributes is not halved.

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Anyway, attempting to get back on topic... I found in my hard drive a gaggle of free supplements for Champions Complete​ (including a Combat Example, Converting Old Characters To Champions Complete, Example Characters From Other Genres, Rules For Animal Creation, and Talent Creation)... I could have sworn I downloaded them from here, but I can't find them in the Downloads section now. The Combat Example in particular struck me as the sort of thing that would help Brian teach his friend how to play FHC... although admittedly I could be wrong since it references the example characters from Champions Complete.

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Reasonably sure that healing is not affected by the halving effect of adjustment powers.  That's for negative effects, not positive.  I don't think Aid is affected, either.

EDIT: ok here's what the big book says on the topic:

 

To balance the usefulness of defenses in the HERO System, the effect of any Adjustment Power that increases or decreases any of the following is halved: any Defense Power;
the Characteristics CON, DCV, DMCV, PD, ED, REC, END, BODY, and STUN; and any other ability the GM designates as primarily defensive in nature.

 

 
 
However, I believe that is in error, when it comes to healing.  Endurance I can understand, the 6th edition rules made END way too cheap.  A serious mistake, it basically made endurance a non-stat, you can ignore it in games.  If that's how you want to play, you can just do so, but imposing that viewpoint on the rules is an error in my opinion.  But healing Body and Stun halved?  basically Healing costs twice as much as it should, because that's the 99% purpose of the power: heal body and stun, which now by the rules does half effect.  That's like making Blast cost 1d6/5 points, but do half damage.
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Anyway, attempting to get back on topic... I found in my hard drive a gaggle of free supplements for Champions Complete​ (including a Combat Example, Converting Old Characters To Champions Complete, Example Characters From Other Genres, Rules For Animal Creation, and Talent Creation)... I could have sworn I downloaded them from here, but I can't find them in the Downloads section now. The Combat Example in particular struck me as the sort of thing that would help Brian teach his friend how to play FHC... although admittedly I could be wrong since it references the example characters from Champions Complete.

 

These were bundled with Champions Complete, so only for paying customers. I have them too and didn't realize it until the other day. I don't know why they didn't include all of these things for FHC, although a Fantasy Hero in 2 Pages document was included, as well as sample monsters, etc. But why not all these other documents too? Especially the combat example. It just feels like, even with new products, they are on autopilot with their decisions. There needs to be some new blood with new ideas.

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​I get that you are pointing me to Healing (and I assume to Simplified Healing)... but I'm not sure why.

Perhaps I gave you the wrong impression (in which case I apologize) but the text you quoted was in response to Lucius reposting an answer Steve Long gave regarding whether you halve the effect of Healing BODY. Mr. Long says yes and I say no.

 

I believe that the specific wording under the Simplified Healing rule takes precedence over the halving of BODY and STUN Healing.  That's how I would run it, at least.

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Ahh, your previous post makes sense now.

If I believed that Healing was halved for defensive attributes (which I don't), then I think I would be just as likely to believe that rule applied to Simplified Healing as I would be to believe that Simplified Healing was an exception. If I believed the former, I would probably run it as the later as a house rule, and explain as such to any player that asked.

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Ahh, your previous post makes sense now.

If I believed that Healing was halved for defensive attributes (which I don't), then I think I would be just as likely to believe that rule applied to Simplified Healing as I would be to believe that Simplified Healing was an exception. If I believed the former, I would probably run it as the later as a house rule, and explain as such to any player that asked.

 

Halving Adjustment Powers for defensive Powers and abilities (including normal PD and ED) has been the case ever since the pre-4th edition supplement Champions III.  In 3rd edition (Champions III and Fantasy Hero 1e), Healing only affected STUN and BODY; there was no way to buy it to affect other lost Characteristics, though Regeneration in Champions was called out as helping those.

 

4th edition specified that increases were included. In that edition, Healing was not a separate Power but was part of Aid; it was broken back out into its own Power starting in 5th. 5th edition was the first in which Healing was both a separate Power and could be bought to affect abilities other than STUN and BODY.

 

To the extent that I can tell, 6th edition was the first in which END, STUN, and BODY were considered defensive abilities for these purposes.  In no case is Healing called out as an exception. In the examples in 5th Edition Revised and 6th Edition for Simplified Healing, the example 2d6 Simplified Healing Power is stated as being able to Heal a maximum of 4 BODY and 12 STUN. Admittedly, the examples for regular Healing don't halve the amounts for BODY Healing, although the 6e example is inconsistent, which may have been a typo or versioning eror.  

 

The Simplified Healing rule specifies the amount of STUN and BODY Healed, rather than the amount of points worth, and the examples support this. I therefore assert that that is a specific exception to the halving of Healing as applied to defensive abilities. As for whether Healing in general is an exception, I don't think "belief" is an issue. Interpretation, agreement, and how the GM decides to handle it can be, but a previous rules question on the matter was quoted to this thread, which should establish it as fact and not subject to belief.

 

I've just posted in Rules Question about Simplified Healing, in order to get a definitive answer. How I handle it won't change whether or not Steve's answer agrees with mine, and my track record is about 50/50 regarding agreement with his answers, but we'll have an answer.  

 

Edit: the Errata file states that Brother Willem's BODY Healing in the example is in error, and that his Healing is halved.  It also specifies that Arkelos' Simplified Healing is halved as well.  As I said, that doesn't change how I intend to run it as GM.

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As for whether Healing in general is an exception, I don't think "belief" is an issue. Interpretation, agreement, and how the GM decides to handle it can be, but a previous rules question on the matter was quoted to this thread, which should establish it as fact and not subject to belief.

I used the term "belief" only for the sake of political correctness; I am 100% certain that my interpretation is correct (which is why I generally don't post rules questions). The RAW doesn't have to call out healing specifically, because healing is already exempted conditionally. Under "Adjusting Defensive Powers" (CC 46; FHC 55) it specifies "any Adjustment Power that increases or decreases..."; Healing is the only Adjustment power which does not "increase" or "decrease" a game element, it allows a character to "restore a lost or reduced" game element. Ergo, rules as written (in CC/FHC), Healing is not subject to the rules regarding "Adjusting Defensive Powers" because it doesn't meet the necessary conditions to be subject to that rule.

 

Now, Steven Long is half correct regarding the RAW for 6th edition, the rule supporting his statement can be found on 6e1 pg. 135 (where it says "Adjustment powers applies against Defense Powers and..." at the top of the second column), that rule is then contradicted on page 141 where it uses the same phrasing that ​Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete do. Mr. Long is of course free to answer that the Rules As Intended for 6e were for Healing to be subject to rules regarding Adjusting Defensive Powers.

 

However as far as I know, Steven Long had nothing to do with Champions Complete​ or Fantasy Hero Complete​, which were developed by Jason Walters and written by Derek Hiemforth and Michael Surbrook respectively. So for those of us using CC/FHC as our primary rules reference his opinion is no more credible than yours or mine.

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Can you point me to that thread?

A big part of it is in the last four or five pages of this thread, including the build ideas for dispel:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94228-the-myth-of-hero/page-9

 

There are other bits of discussion of built by hero ideas on this thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94262-hero-system-lucky-7th-edition/page-8

 

And some more here, towards the end:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94331-new-powers-that-you-think-would-simplify-hero/page-7

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That the fanatics (myself included) can't agree on how to interpret corner cases in the ruleset?

 

I think that is a problem in almost every table-top RPG, and if you think this is bad, you should spend some time trolling the Paizo Forums. Pathfinder was written, in the words of its developers, "conversationally"; as a result the books are rife with inconsistent terminology, contradictions, historical revisionism, and rules that can only be inferred to exist, but were never actually written anywhere.

 

Compared to that over-bloated cluster**** of a ruleset ​Fantasy Hero Complete​ is concise, elegant, and consistent. The only real flaw Fantasy Hero Complete​ suffers from is that it pushes more of the work of running the game off on the GM. Likewise, Pathfinder's only real advantage over Hero (for me) I don't have​ to do any work to run Pathfinder. It has a random table for damn near everything, and literally more than ten-thousand pages of prewritten adventures. But heaven forbid I want to write an enemy, or trap from scratch; its like pulling teeth to find all the rules, and all you can do is guess if it is going to be balanced. Comparatively I can write about 6 balanced, rules legal, professionally formatted, fully described game elements per day (armor, spells, and weapons for example), or 1 or 2 full stat-blocks of similar quality per day. And those numbers are assume I still waste several hours each day trolling the forums, doing research, and watching cartoons.

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To Brian Stanfield,

The following link leads to a page containing some fairly decent conversions of D&D 5th edition game elements (races, classes, and backgrounds) into Hero System 6th Edition Templates. I haven't read them all, but as far as I can tell you should be able to use them in FHC with little to no modification.

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/eepjr24/Default.aspx

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