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Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies


Brian Stanfield

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Here's what I came up with for the 5th edition rebuild of Keep on the Borderlands prebuilds.  I hope to redo them for 6th soon as I can get a new copy of Hero Designer.

 

Mage

Druid

Paladin

Heavy Warrior "tank"

Light Warrior "DPS"

Rogue

Hunter/Outdoorsman type with a pet

Warrior/Mage

 

I like less typical characters in the mix to give players a feel for the flexibility of Hero rather than just the basic types of most RPGs.  There's no reason for racial duplication, I don't think.  The class matters a lot more than the race for a premade simple character.

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Personally, I find Hero Designer an amazing tool for me.  I think that for anyone familiar with the system it hugely reduces the bureaucracy of building a character.  However, I do no think it is, in any way, a teaching or learning tool.  Some of the things it does are only understandable if you already understand the rules.

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I'm definitely in favor of simplified rules and stat blocks for beginners. For instance, in a beginner module, there's no reason you couldn't have something like this:

 

The heroes encounter a group of 6 orcs. They are wearing leather armor and weild swords with wicked-looking curved blades. They have faces reminiscent of a pig-man with greenish skin. The orcs are arguing amongst themselves and will notice the players on a Perception roll of 10-, unless the players do something to attract the orcs' attention.

 

Orcs

2D6+1 killing damage (swords)

5 OCV, 4 DCV

12 Dex, 3 Spd

7 PD and ED total, 3 Resistant

10 Body, 25 Stun, 13 Con

12m Running

 

Orcs can see in the dark.

 

For the initial adventure, you don't need to know the orcs' Pre scores, or Int, or a lot of other things. Only include the important stuff for the adventure. The players and the GM will be learning bit by bit, so you don't want to flood them with too much info at once. They can look at the Bestiary for the full Orc character sheet.

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Not necessarily. Present the above in a gender-free format, and give each two lines that run, for example, "Suggested names for male Human fighter: Brandon, Volstave, Hawk, Hasan, Moto, Shoka" and "Suggested names for female Human fighter: Morgan, Helga, Zandipay, Sana, Hatina, Belinda." If we don't even want to delve into the question of "are there female Dwarves?" we can just have a line for "Suggested Dwarf names."

 

Also: I don't think Half Elves are necessary in a beginning product, and why have Half Orcs instead of Orcs?

 

 

For an intro even that is too much.  Just look at the successful intro's out there.

 

Players are not stupid so we really don't to be over elaborate.

 

Ingrid/Claus Fleetfoot - Human Fighter (Light/Archer)

Selena/Reginald Lightsinger - Human Cleric

Grilda/Karack Hammerhand - Dwarf Fighter (Heavy/Melee)

Astrid/Elois Brightstar - Elven Mage.

Brigid/Brond - Halfling Rogue.

 

All the basic slots are filled. 

 

The first name is obviously female by just the layout and everyone uses pre-gen PC names in a module or book as suggestions anyway.  This simply does not need more.

 

Are there more possible characters out there?  Absolutely.  But not in a Starter Demo product

 

Keep all the character sheets simple, no points if at all possible.

 

As massey said, stat blocks for threats do not need all the stats.  Just the minimum to play the session. 

 

But on thing I think is important is a standalone appendix in the back that takes the new player step by step, point by point the process used to create the pregens.   Personally I believe this would be larger than the actual adventure when complete, so I'd make this part a free PDF.  But when I say step by step, point by point, I mean literally.  The thought behind the build and why each option was chosen.  

 

I know that in the way back, Dan Dietz an old GM from 1983, sat down with me and walked me through a new superhero build going over the why's and how's of the build.  That illustration of "reason by effect" was how the light bulb went on.  Even now on this forum it is not unusual to see someone trying to create the special effect instead of the effect. 

 

We need that kind of document written in plain, non-jargon language. 

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I agree a "how we built them" supplement is a good idea.  You don't really need one for each character, but one really detailed explanation for a character (this would be especially punchy if done with video) and then details on specifics of other characters would be really helpful.  It could explain the full character sheet, too.  And nowhere in the entire intro book or supplement should the words "complex," "difficult," "lots of math," or "time consuming" ever be used.  Ever.  The point is to sell the product and the system, so no negatives whatsoever.

 

And ultimately, Hero really is very simple.  Its quite simple to play and use.  The only level of complexity that can arise is building particularly interesting characters or power structures.  People kind of stymie a bit when told the rules for even a fairly simple game, but when they sit down and play, it becomes much more easily understandable, even an RPG.

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Or would you rather see at least one or two rare and exotic options you have seen in few games before or perhaps not at all, like Pixies or Goblins (as playable options....

 

Present the above in a gender-free format, and give each two lines that run...

 

When I made the list I just ran with the fantasy races that appeal to me personally.  

 

When I used to run games at Cons I would make up full character sheets for each of the demo characters, with a three paragraph character description & history and a picture (stolen shamelessly from the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale PC games).  I found that that really helped players get the feel for the character and added to the fun.

 

I don't see this as ever becoming any kind of "product" for Hero Games.  Hero Games already has exactly the product GMs need.  It's called Hero Designer.  I have spent, literally and without exaggeration, hundreds of hours noodeling around with Hero Designer making NPCs, perspective PCs, and demo game handout characters.  I consider it a meta-game in and of itself for when I'm not playing in a regular campaign.

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For an intro even that is too much. Just look at the successful intro's out there.

 

Players are not stupid so we really don't to be over elaborate.

 

Ingrid/Claus Fleetfoot - Human Fighter (Light/Archer)

Selena/Reginald Lightsinger - Human Cleric

Grilda/Karack Hammerhand - Dwarf Fighter (Heavy/Melee)

Astrid/Elois Brightstar - Elven Mage.

Brigid/Brond - Halfling Rogue.

 

All the basic slots are filled.

 

The first name is obviously female by just the layout and everyone uses pre-gen PC names in a module or book as suggestions anyway. This simply does not need more.

 

Are there more possible characters out there? Absolutely. But not in a Starter Demo product.

 

Keep all the character sheets simple, no points if at all possible.

 

As massey said, stat blocks for threats do not need all the stats. Just the minimum to play the session.

 

But on thing I think is important is a standalone appendix in the back that takes the new player step by step, point by point the process used to create the pregens. Personally I believe this would be larger than the actual adventure when complete, so I'd make this part a free PDF. But when I say step by step, point by point, I mean literally. The thought behind the build and why each option was chosen.

 

I know that in the way back, Dan Dietz an old GM from 1983, sat down with me and walked me through a new superhero build going over the why's and how's of the build. That illustration of "reason by effect" was how the light bulb went on. Even now on this forum it is not unusual to see someone trying to create the special effect instead of the effect.

 

We need that kind of document written in plain, non-jargon language.

I get where you are going with the characters. However just to show some flexibility, you could have instead:

 

Dwarf Cleric

Elf Rogue

Halfing fighter

Human magic user

Feline fromm FH 4th (One unique race) or

Gargoyle

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Yeah I think looking at the FH source material for alternate races is a good idea; the cat-folk and goblin appeal to me, the other races less so, but that's just my thoughts on the matter.  There's sprite, giant, gargoyle, gnome, lizard, orc, ogre, serpent people, lizard men, trolls and dragon-folk in the FH book we could make some from.

 

Its pretty easy and fast to make a character for FH, especially if magic is already set up.  So having a good dozen or more characters is no big deal.  We don't want a huge book but giving each player several choices, even the last guy to pick, is always nice.  And there can be a bit of overlap that way; a couple of each basic archetype and then a bunch of alternates.  I like the idea of going against type, so you have an elf heavy fighter and an orc shaman or something different.

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Feline fromm FH 4th (One unique race) or

Gargoyle

 

 

Yeah I think looking at the FH source material for alternate races is a good idea; the cat-folk and goblin appeal to me, the other races less so, but that's just my thoughts on the matter.  There's sprite, giant, gargoyle, gnome, lizard, orc, ogre, serpent people, lizard men, trolls and dragon-folk in the FH book we could make some from.

 

 

Personally I prefer Orcs and Goblins as being evil. I could see Dragon kin though as a good alternate race.

 

And it goes off the rails again.

 

This is not about showcasing hero build rules or introducing specific setting micro-niche races/archetypes.  

 

It is about taking the most common and widely known races/archetypes and deliberately avoiding the build/creation system as much as possible.

 

That way new to hero players and GM's can see an example of how the system plays using set common known races/archetypes as a reference to understanding the game stats as applied to the game world.  

 

A warrior with a sword that hits does X. 

An archer with a bow hit like this and does damage like this.

Armor works like this.

A 15 STR can throw X.

 

The basics that most players never get to because they abandon the game in character generation because they have to make decisions on builds with no reference.  

 

In order to get Hero back into the eye of gamers it has to be interesting they have to be guided to playing the game.  Not being driven away before they even begin by the build/CharGen rules.   The demo should be able to be played without any referencing anything in the Character Generation portion of FHC. 

Dear god don't let them open that part of the book!!! At least until they have played through the Demo game scenarios. 

 

After the first scenario or two of play,  give them a couple pre-defined choices to spend XP on.  Just like FFG's Star Wars beginner sets.

 

Part 1:

Three or four scenarios with pregenerated PC's designed to allow the players and GM to play a FH game with zero or very very very limited exposure to the build rules. 

  >Play scenarios 1 & 2

  >Apply XP

  >Play scenarios 3 & 4.

Nothing unique, just common standard PC's and threats using common and standard races and archetypes. 

Operating key parameters, common well know races/archetypes/threats only

 

Part 2:

Now that you have played a few scenarios, let's answer some questions.  How was everything in Book 1 built.  Why were certain decisions made? Why Why Why does the Hero Build rules do this that and the other thing.   Just what is meant by "reason from effect" in practice?

 

Part 3:

Just for fun lets all build a Human Warrior!

And then lets play the warriors in Scenario 5 to see what we did!

 

Part 4:

Now that we have a idea of what we are dealing with, lets have fun!

Making you own archetypes. 

Just abandoning archetypes altogether.

Suggestions for custom races. 

Magic?  Magic devices? 

Unleashing Heroes ability to model anything!

 

For the last 30+ years Hero has made the assumption that a players eventual wish to customize means there wasn't any need fo them to actually play before trying to write everything from the basement up.  

 

The reality is players eventually wish to customize games after they have played them enough to want to get creative

 

Play then Build.

Not "Try to build without reference and then maybe play".

 

I think FHC and CC are fantastic books.....for the GM and player who are well experienced in playing and running game using the Hero rules.  

Everything is presented quite clearly....if you already know the basics.

 

But to actually get to the play rules you have to navigate virtually blind through the hero build rules with no reference for how build decisions will actually work in play.  

 

Anyway, enough soap box. 

 

Carry on smartly :)

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Actually I think having alternate types in addition to classic archetypes and races is a good way of highlighting the flexibility of the game system without increasing complexity.  The project isn't just about teaching the Hero System, its about teaching the Hero System.  So if we can find ways to demonstrate the strengths of the system and its unique ability to unleash uniqueness and personal creativity without being more complicated or confusing by all means we absolutely should do so.

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A question for any new people that may still be reading:

 

Picking up a new game, are you more excited to see familiar character types like Elf, Dwarf, Human, etc, where you already sort of know what they are and are curious "how does THIS game handle them?"

 

 

I'm far more interested in seeing familiar character types. That way it's easier for me to get oriented and help my players to do the same.

 

I actually have a test scenario that we run through, when trying out a new system.

 

 

 

On that note, another question for those new to Hero System:

 

Do you use Hero Designer? And if so, how helpful is it?

 

 

I bought Hero Designer as part of a last ditch bid to learn the builder aspect of Hero. And It's excellent. I was just about ready to move on. Though still not up to speed on powers and what-not,  I at least can have some confidence in the characters that I build with it.

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Feline fromm FH 4th (One unique race) or

Gargoyle

 

 

Yeah I think looking at the FH source material for alternate races is a good idea; the cat-folk and goblin appeal to me, the other races less so, but that's just my thoughts on the matter.  There's sprite, giant, gargoyle, gnome, lizard, orc, ogre, serpent people, lizard men, trolls and dragon-folk in the FH book we could make some from.

 

 

Personally I prefer Orcs and Goblins as being evil. I could see Dragon kin though as a good alternate race.

 

 

And it goes off the rails again.

 

This is not about showcasing hero build rules or introducing specific setting micro-niche races/archetypes.  

 

It is about taking the most common and widely known races/archetypes and deliberately avoiding the build/creation system as much as possible.

If you can use a pre-generated Elf and "deliberately avoid the build/creation system" you can do exactly the same thing with a Feline, Gargoyle, Goblin, or Drakine. Nothing about using any of these will somehow "force" the prospective new player to interact with the character creation system any more than using an Elf or a Dwarf would.

 

 

That way new to hero players and GM's can see an example of how the system plays using set common known races/archetypes as a reference to understanding the game stats as applied to the game world.  

 

A warrior with a sword that hits does X. 

An archer with a bow hit like this and does damage like this.

Armor works like this.

A 15 STR can throw X.

 

The basics that most players never get to because they abandon the game in character generation because they have to make decisions on builds with no reference.

You are making a great deal of sense here, and I think most of us, including people you quoted, probably agree.

 

In order to get Hero back into the eye of gamers it has to be interesting they have to be guided to playing the game.  Not being driven away before they even begin by the build/CharGen rules.   The demo should be able to be played without any referencing anything in the Character Generation portion of FHC. 

Dear god don't let them open that part of the book!!! At least until they have played through the Demo game scenarios.

On the one hand, I don't disagree that "the demo should be able to be played without any referencing anything in the Character Generation portion...." - on the other hand, I don't understand why you think using something other than Human, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit, would somehow have to involve any such referencing.

 

After the first scenario or two of play,  give them a couple pre-defined choices to spend XP on.  Just like FFG's Star Wars beginner sets.

 

Part 1:

Three or four scenarios with pregenerated PC's designed to allow the players and GM to play a FH game with zero or very very very limited exposure to the build rules. 

  >Play scenarios 1 & 2

  >Apply XP

  >Play scenarios 3 & 4.

Nothing unique, just common standard PC's and threats using common and standard races and archetypes. 

Operating key parameters, common well know races/archetypes/threats only.

See, here's my problem with this. There's already about ten thousand games out there with "common well know races/archetypes/threats only." If there is nothing to set our product apart, what's going to make anyone want to play it in the first place?

 

Part 2:

Now that you have played a few scenarios, let's answer some questions.  How was everything in Book 1 built.  Why were certain decisions made? Why Why Why does the Hero Build rules do this that and the other thing.   Just what is meant by "reason from effect" in practice?

 

Part 3:

Just for fun lets all build a Human Warrior!

And then lets play the warriors in Scenario 5 to see what we did!

 

Part 4:

Now that we have a idea of what we are dealing with, lets have fun!

Making you own archetypes. 

Just abandoning archetypes altogether.

Suggestions for custom races. 

Magic?  Magic devices? 

Unleashing Heroes ability to model anything!

 

For the last 30+ years Hero has made the assumption that a players eventual wish to customize means there wasn't any need fo them to actually play before trying to write everything from the basement up.  

 

The reality is players eventually wish to customize games after they have played them enough to want to get creative

 

Play then Build.

Not "Try to build without reference and then maybe play".

 

I think FHC and CC are fantastic books.....for the GM and player who are well experienced in playing and running game using the Hero rules.  

Everything is presented quite clearly....if you already know the basics.

 

But to actually get to the play rules you have to navigate virtually blind through the hero build rules with no reference for how build decisions will actually work in play.  

 

Anyway, enough soap box. 

 

Carry on smartly :)

Quoted because I agree with it mostly and it bears repeating.

 

Except the insistence on "common well know races/archetypes/threats only." I think we need a balance: "Comfortably familiar without being bland and dull and just like ten thousand other games trying to imitate D&D" and "some new and exciting elements without being scary or overwhelming." We need Dwarves and Elves, yes, and players that want them should get them, but players who want something different should have an option or two as well.

 

I note, by the way, that so far not many new people are responding to my questions, so honestly, we're all just speculating so far about what might work and what might not.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A palindromedary tagline works for me.

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Personally much of these arguments are why I would prefer an 175-point Adventurers Gallery (ala the Superhero Gallery from Champions) to having a dozen example characters. In such a gallery every 175-point archetype might present two or three characteristic sets (Strong Knight, Agile Knight, etc) built on 85-100 points and would instruct players to select the rest of their game elements from multiple choice lists of skillsets and racial templates built on 15 to 30 points each. Each archetype would be Human by default, but if the player wants to play an Elf Knight instead, they simply replace one of their skillsets with the Elven Racial Template. Likewise if they wanted their Knight to know "just a little magic" they could replace one or more of their skillsets with a 30 point "Minor Magic" template that gave them a weak Multipower Reserve and 3 to 5 "spell" slots. Such a system would leverage players familiarity with D&D style character generation, yet still allow them to benefit from the inherent versatility of the Hero System.

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Personally much of these arguments are why I would prefer an 175-point Adventurers Gallery (ala the Superhero Gallery from Champions) to having a dozen example characters. In such a gallery every 175-point archetype might present two or three characteristic sets (Strong Knight, Agile Knight, etc) built on 85-100 points and would instruct players to select the rest of their game elements from multiple choice lists of skillsets and racial templates built on 15 to 30 points each. Each archetype would be Human by default, but if the player wants to play an Elf Knight instead, they simply replace one of their skillsets with the Elven Racial Template. Likewise if they wanted their Knight to know "just a little magic" they could replace one or more of their skillsets with a 30 point "Minor Magic" template that gave them a weak Multipower Reserve and 3 to 5 "spell" slots. Such a system would leverage players familiarity with D&D style character generation, yet still allow them to benefit from the inherent versatility of the Hero System.

 

Thinking back to my first few Champions characters, back in the 1900's, even I stayed away from Multipowers and Elemental Controls.  I still strongly recommend that the spellcasters for the Fantasy Hero Begins product be built with a very basic "pay your points, get your spell" model.  Once all of the players, and the GM if need be, have graduated beyond the need for the beginner's set, then they can play with deeper builds.  

 

Robot Warriors is an excellent example of this.  Pages 6-18 of the book present exactly what we're talking about: the Battle Game, which is a very basic combat scenario (nothing more than "slap down a hex board, choose a couple of sample robots, fight!"), a sample robot sheet, and a few pages of description about how this thing and that thing and the other thing work without going into any detail at all about how to build them.  In fact, it doesn't even bother with a character sheet for the pilot.  Hopefully fair use permits this quote from the book:

 

Don’t feel overwhelmed by the size of the rulebook — you don’t have to read the whole book to start playing. To get you right into the action we present The Battle Game. The Battle Game strips all the role playing and complexity out and gets down to the basic focus of the game: fighting giant robots. First, we’ll describe the robots used in Robot Warriors; then we’ll describe how they fight. A bunch of pre-built robots are included in the campaign section in the back of the book so that you can get started as soon as you’ve finished reading this section.

 

To get started right away, read the sections here discussing the robot control sheet and combat, copy a couple of robots from the examples given, and start playing. As you run across systems and hardware that you don’t understand, read the explanations listed in this section. It would help if you read through those descriptions before starting, but you’re probably eager to begin play. So, gentlemen, start your robots!

 

This thing right here. That is what we should be striving for.  I would recommend that everyone, if you don't already have Robot Warriors in paper or bits, head over to the Hero Games store and drop $4.98 on it.  

 

(The size of the rulebook, by the way, that they don't want you to get intimidated by, is 160 pages total, including the Battle Game, how to build robots, the roleplaying game with how to build characters, how to fight, campaigning, and so on.)  

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I don't really care what magic system or how people build characters once they're done with the Fantasy Hero Begins tutorial.  What they do once they know the system well enough to play isn't what that project would be about.

 

Sure, it's getting them to that point.  But everything to do with a Multipower is way beyond what that project should be about.  You can't really hide the build details of a Multipower, because you have to know Active Points and slots and the lines of game element code.  You are by nature exposing all of that stuff, and that's precisely the stuff we don't want to put in front of the people this thing is for.

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Sure, it's getting them to that point.  But everything to do with a Multipower is way beyond what that project should be about.  You can't really hide the build details of a Multipower, because you have to know Active Points and slots and the lines of game element code.  You are by nature exposing all of that stuff, and that's precisely the stuff we don't want to put in front of the people this thing is for.

 

I don't agree.  I think you could skin a multipower written for purpose to look flavoursome rather than mechanical....going to go off and think about it...

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Multipower is the easiest mechanic to hide. Just don't get complicated with it. Don't have a 60 point pool with 4 multi slots, 3 60 point ultras, 3 20 point ultras, etc.

 

Do it like this instead:

 

Multipower, 60 points

Fireball -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Radius +1

Lightning bolt -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Line +1

Cone of Cold -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Cone +1

 

Magic spell pool

This ability allows you to use any attack spell known up to the level of the magic pool, one at a time. Because the caster must maintain control over the magic, an attack that continues to inflict damage phase after phase will stop if the caster begins to cast a different spell.

 

Easy.

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