Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[Christopher R Taylor]

The way I see it there are three ways to make a hero character:

• Randomize (use tables or cards or whatever)
• Create a duplicate of some character from another game or source (I wanna play Frodo!)
• Come up with a concept and persona, and build that

For the purposes of the FHB project I see that more about pregens and then people can get a Fantasy Hero Boxset kind of intro campaign.

 

In terms of cards, we can just include the cards as pages of the pdf; people can print them out and use them as paper or on card stock, then it costs nothing.  But at least it gives something extra and fun for players to hang on to.

[Cantriped]

Regarding Using Tokens and Being Stunned: Instead of handing people a pile of tokens, and deducting them as the resource is lost, use the tokens to represent the deductions themselves. For example, STUN Tokens would represent losses of -1, -3, or -5 STUN each, since being Stunned is a conditional effect, you simply compare the number of points worth of STUN Tokens handed to you for that Injury to your Con, if the STUN is higher, you are Stunned. Using the tokens in this way also makes it easier to track wounds individually for that optional Healing rule, since you can separate the tokens from each wound into their own piles, and remove them from those piles as they are Healed. I keep mentioning 1, 3, and 5 point tokens because using these values allows you to represent any specific number using the fewest physical tokens.

 

Regarding Quick Generation from Champions: Champions 6th also has a system for quickly creating characters... presented as the "Superhero Gallery", each entry in the gallery is like a multiple choice template for a given superhero archetype (like a Blaster, or a Brick). Steven Long also published a supplement for it which added even more archetypes. My wife used them to build her last champions character. All told it took her 10 minutes to make a character, not counting the time it took her to physically write the information down on her sheet. The character was quite competent, but not overpowered. So in past posts where I have referred to an "Adventurers Gallery" I was inferring a similar product but for Fantasy Hero. Considering the demands of the genre, and the commonality of Heroic level campaigns, my "Adventurers Gallery" would include at least eight 175 point entries covering archetypes such as "Knight", "Ranger", "Priest", and "Wizard".

[Lucius]

The way I see it there are three ways to make a hero character:

• Randomize (use tables or cards or whatever)
• Create a duplicate of some character from another game or source (I wanna play Frodo!)
• Come up with a concept and persona, and build that

For the purposes of the FHB project I see that more about pregens and then people can get a Fantasy Hero Boxset kind of intro campaign.

 

In terms of cards, we can just include the cards as pages of the pdf; people can print them out and use them as paper or on card stock, then it costs nothing.  But at least it gives something extra and fun for players to hang on to.

 

What makes you think cards are necessarily random? It's entirely possible to have a  deck of cards that players can sort through and pick put elements they like.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Pick one from column A and one from column B and one to three palindromedaries

[Christopher R Taylor]

True, you could just let people build characters from blocs of abilities and complications as well.  In the Player book I'm working on, I am trying to create templates for profession, physical type, and background so people can pick each for stats, skills, and complications to build a character quick and dirty.  Put those on cards and you have a pretty quick system.  Or you could shuffle them and deal em out... I got an athletic scout who is amorous....

[TheDarkness]

Poker chips are about the ideal counter one can use. They are easily recognizable from a glance as to their value, and they come in a box one could roll dice in.

[Eisenmann]

Eisenmann, I really like your idea of using little beads or whatever, or Cantriped's tokens, to track different stats. This is visually intuitive. The only possible problem I can see is that players need to keep track of specific numbers of STUN, for example, to determine whether their characters are stunned (compared to their CON). Perhaps this may be one of those rules that could be eliminated for basic play, but it's pretty basic to the game. Do you use a card for the aquarium stones to show what the pool is, and what is used? It's possible to indicate "if x number of STUN is moved from your pool, you are stunned for one phase," or something like that. What do you do?

 

The stones are color coded to the highlighted fields on the character sheet - red for Body and yellow for Stun. Being an impromptu hack it didn't remedy as much as it could have. We still had to remember the stun threshold. Your idea for cards as a visual base is a good one. Then the numbers would be right in context.

 

I want to note that, in my game, characters have relatively low body and stun. Heck, the PCs are skilled normals and most of their world isn't that potent, making the use of stones as a running gauge of reserve pretty easy.

[Old Man]

We used to track damage by inflicting wounds on the player to match those on his character. It really helps with the roleplaying.

 

Note: this post may contain factual inaccuracies.

[Brian Stanfield]

We used to track damage by inflicting wounds on the player to match those on his character. It really helps with the roleplaying.

 

Note: this post may contain factual inaccuracies.

 

I think that's part of Champions LARP . . . .    This could be a game changer for Fantasy Hero, though!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I wonder how the magic systems affect new players.  Some of them are kind of complex with power frameworks, etc.  But most games with magic have somewhat complicated systems in them.

[Brian Stanfield]

I wonder how the magic systems affect new players.  Some of them are kind of complex with power frameworks, etc.  But most games with magic have somewhat complicated systems in them.

 

I'm curious too. My buddy (the source of this thread) was having enough trouble with understanding how all the characteristics and skills worked together along with combat. When we sorted that out and he ran into the powers section of Fantasy Hero Complete, he just shut down like he ran into a wall. The powers, while the engine that makes Hero System work, are admittedly not easy.

 

So with that in mind, I'm thinking a simple skill-based system would be the way to go for a basic beginner, with a list of spells to chose from (extracted form the Hero System Grimoire) in order to keep things simple. The spells would be grouped according to different types of magic, and maybe a simple explanation with the AP and real cost included.

 

The reason why I'm thinking this would work is that it would avoid the 100 pages of powers and modifiers in the middle of the book. A spell list is not as fun as making your own spells, but again this is for beginners who probably won't be building their own stuff right out of the box anyway. But if the spell lists match the HS Grimoire then they can be used as learning tools for understanding how the powers work. After the first few adventures, and maybe some curiosity about different spells, then perhaps they'd be ready to read about the powers, using the complete spell builds from the Grimoire as examples to fiddle with and expand on until they are ready to build their own. By this point, they'd be much more experienced, and the campaign would be more fleshed out and ready for more advanced play.

 

Just a hunch on my part. . . .

[Cantriped]

I have written some very, very convoluted magic systems in my day, and studied almost every magic system written by somebody else for Fantasy Hero (and a few other systems as well). I've also played a mage in the Turakian Age (a 5th edition campaign setting), using their default magic system and picking (almost) all my spells from the Grimoire(s) available at the time. In my last Fantasy Hero campaign, one of my players had a pure Multipower casting system, and another used a VPP for "magic item creation". In my experience, a complicated magic system rarely contributes enough to the story to be worth the headaches it gives players and GMs alike.

 

Using a system based on the Hero System Grimoire is a good idea until your players are sufficiently experienced, but keep an eye on which spells they are picking, some of them are quite complicated or "hand-wavey", and unlike Champions Powers​ the formatting of the Options & Variants section is atrocious, and the options themselves worthlessly generic. The 5th edition grimoires were much better written.

The advantages of using a grimoire are that they contain descriptions which give the player some fluff to hand their understanding of game elements on, and that the player doesn't have to wade through all of the Power and Modifier descriptions before they can play. If there is some question regarding how a spell works, they only need to look up the Power(s) and Modifier(s) used in that spell, this helps them gain familiarity incrementally. 

 

I'm not sure using a skill system is actually your best option, but I'm admittedly quite biased against using skill rolls to activate spells at all (my turakian age mage died because of a failed magic skill roll). Although they do reduce the entry cost of magic, they also add an unnecessary extra roll to the process which may slow down gameplay, and they add extra rules which have to be explained before players can use such a system.

[Brian Stanfield]

I'm not sure using a skill system is actually your best option, but I'm admittedly quite biased against using skill rolls to activate spells at all (my turakian age mage died because of a failed magic skill roll). Although they do reduce the entry cost of magic, they also add an unnecessary extra roll to the process which may slow down gameplay, and they add extra rules which have to be explained before players can use such a system.

I hadn't really thought about the activation roll process. I just always used it as an assumption (and to keep costs down). I never really liked the idea of offensive spells always automatically "hitting" without a roll, although I understand the desire to keep the number of rolls down. It seems like it would be unbalancing.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've put some thought into the combination of a skill roll and OCV and come up with a couple options.

 

1) Keep both; this I prefer.  Its the price you pay for the flexibility and power of magic.  You can't kill anyone any more dead, but you can leap 60 meters, teleport, read minds, create water, etc.

2) Roll only for spells which have a side effect, to see if you get it or not

3) Keep the roll but define spells so they always hit so there's no OCV attack, maybe a form of resistances or defensive rolls (like a 'saving throw')

4) Presume any roll that is 11- is success on the "standard effect" rule of 3 per die.  Thus if you have a skill of 14- and the spell is -2 to cast, you always succeed.

5) Roll only for spells that do not have another roll like combat value, so a spell that you have to hit with, you don't roll; spells you don't, you do the magic skill roll.

[Cantriped]

I hadn't really thought about the activation roll process. I just always used it as an assumption (and to keep costs down). I never really liked the idea of offensive spells always automatically "hitting" without a roll, although I understand the desire to keep the number of rolls down. It seems like it would be unbalancing.

Even Area of Effect Attack Powers still have to roll against a flat DCV to hit. Although since Hero uses wargame style scattering rules for missed AoEs, they may still affect a target they missed.

 

I also have less of a problem with variants on RSR Magic systems where the penalty for a failed roll isn't failure to activate the power, but suffering some additional side effect instead (such as paying extra endurance, or injuring yourself). However, such systems only add to the complexity of an already complex system.

[TheDarkness]

I've put some thought into the combination of a skill roll and OCV and come up with a couple options.

 

1) Keep both; this I prefer.  Its the price you pay for the flexibility and power of magic.  You can't kill anyone any more dead, but you can leap 60 meters, teleport, read minds, create water, etc.

2) Roll only for spells which have a side effect, to see if you get it or not

3) Keep the roll but define spells so they always hit so there's no OCV attack, maybe a form of resistances or defensive rolls (like a 'saving throw')

4) Presume any roll that is 11- is success on the "standard effect" rule of 3 per die.  Thus if you have a skill of 14- and the spell is -2 to cast, you always succeed.

5) Roll only for spells that do not have another roll like combat value, so a spell that you have to hit with, you don't roll; spells you don't, you do the magic skill roll.

I especially like point 5. I'm not averse to a skill roll, but for ease of play, point 5 is a good compromise.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Philosophically, I think magic in Fantasy Hero works best as a support and enhancement system rather than a main line combat guy.  What I mean is a wizard is best at making others better, opening locks, controlling bad guys etc rather than blasting them to cinders.  Because they are fragile and put their points into magic, they aren't as accurate and able to stand up to combat.  Plus, a wizard that can spend the points to really damage opponents is now more powerful than the fighter types.

[Spence]

Philosophically, I think magic in Fantasy Hero works best as a support and enhancement system rather than a main line combat guy.  What I mean is a wizard is best at making others better, opening locks, controlling bad guys etc rather than blasting them to cinders.  Because they are fragile and put their points into magic, they aren't as accurate and able to stand up to combat.  Plus, a wizard that can spend the points to really damage opponents is now more powerful than the fighter types.

 

Depends on how your world structures magic.  I have seen worlds where everyone uses magic to augment their abilities.  There were no wizards because everyone was a wizard.

[Cantriped]

Depends on how your world structures magic.  I have seen worlds where everyone uses magic to augment their abilities.  There were no wizards because everyone was a wizard.

Fairy Tail is such a world, the most Fighter-ish of the main characters (Erza Scarlet) uses a variant of summoning magic to instantly equip herself with whatever weapons and armor she needs at the time. It is implied her magic has a fairly limited range because she always travels long-distances with an entire wagon full of luggage (which presumably contains her collection of equipment), and that she must own the equipment (she frequently goes shopping for new equipment). Beyond her summoning magic, she functions like any other High-Fantasy Anime Warrior (obscene strength & leaping, incredible durability, knows martial arts, etc). However, that series is likely an example of Superheroic High-Fantasy; considering that money never comes up except as a plot device (you are out of money Lucy, go on this adventure to pay rent!), and nobody bothers looting defeated enemies for their cool magic items (because you'd have to pay their full point cost to learn how to "use" them, and you already invested all your points in "Dragon-Slayer Magic" or "Celestial Summoning").

 

I've always felt that Heroic fantasy campaigns should provide their wizards with heroic equipment comparable to what fighters are getting "for free". For example, a Mages' Staff that grants a bonus to Magic Rolls (in campaigns using such a system), or contains a simple Attack Spell which the wizard can improve with CSLs (and needs the appropriate WF to use).

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've always felt that Heroic fantasy campaigns should provide their wizards with heroic equipment comparable to what fighters are getting "for free". For example, a Mages' Staff that grants a bonus to Magic Rolls (in campaigns using such a system), or contains a simple Attack Spell which the wizard can improve with CSLs (and needs the appropriate WF to use).

 

 

 

This is why I've built my magic system around paying points for talents that control how powerful a magic you can use in what "school" or type, then the spells are not bought with points.  LIke a warrior buying skill levels and familiarities, then using weapons with them that they don't buy with points; spells are the mage's weapons and equipment.

 

But my concern is that if you have two kinds of characters:

Warriors who can fight and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

Wizards who can cast and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)... and warp time and space, summon things, use telekinesis, heal wounds etc, etc

 

Then you've got a basic design imbalance.  Even the way hero balances stuff out with points, if you have warriors who can do 2d6 KA spellcasters who can do 2d6 KA, vs energy defense, and a 3d6 NND, and a 5d6 AE blast etc, then again the wizard has the edge.

[Cantriped]

 

 

This is why I've built my magic system around paying points for talents that control how powerful a magic you can use in what "school" or type, then the spells are not bought with points.  LIke a warrior buying skill levels and familiarities, then using weapons with them that they don't buy with points; spells are the mage's weapons and equipment.

 

But my concern is that if you have two kinds of characters:

Warriors who can fight and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

Wizards who can cast and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)... and warp time and space, summon things, use telekinesis, heal wounds etc, etc

 

Then you've got a basic design imbalance.  Even the way hero balances stuff out with points, if you have warriors who can do 2d6 KA spellcasters who can do 2d6 KA, vs energy defense, and a 3d6 NND, and a 5d6 AE blast etc, then again the wizard has the edge.

 

Your concern regarding the disparity of character types is a valid one, and one that is very difficult to resolve in a Heroic campaign. In a world with magic, those who don't use magic would either develop ways to compete with magic-users, or they would die off. However, the disparity mostly has to do with the expectations we hold of these archetypes: If you expect Warriors and Scoundrels to be "realistic", but allow Magicians to warp reality, there will always be an imbalance.

 

On the one hand, if you allow the Warrior or Scoundrel to buy equipment "for free" (aka with money instead of CP) which allows them to do the same things Magicians paid CP for, then Warriors & Scoundrels will always be the more cost effective and desirable option. Since they can also afford to buy Skills (including Combat Skill Levels and Martial Arts) which the Magician cannot.

 

On the other hand, if you allow the Magician to have Spells which grant them abilities the Warrior or Scoundrel cannot duplicate, you ensure that Magicians always have an unfair tactical advantage. Since there usually isn't anything preventing the Magician from also wearing armor and carrying a sword just like the Warrior or Scoundrel.

 

The simplest solutions are to force them all to play by the same rules (one way or the other):

 

If you run a Superheroic campaign; there is nothing stopping the "otherwise normal" Warrior from having a Cloak of Levitation, a Flaming Broadsword, and a Quiver of Infinite Arrows which only they can use (because Magic!), or the "otherwise normal" Scoundrel from learning how to brew Potions of Healing and Elixirs of Invisibility. Meanwhile the Magician is paying slightly more for a Grimoire from which they can produce a greater range of magical effects, or paying much more for magical abilities which cannot be stolen or broken in combat. This is the option I favor, my next campaign will probably be Superheroic High-Fantasy.

 

If you run a Heroic Campaign; you could make various minor magical items (such as potions and scrolls) "mundane equipment". In this sense even though the Warrior cannot simply cast Fly​, if he has a Potion of Fly which lasts for 6 hours he can still compete with the Magician who can. This works especially well if the Magician is similarly treating spells as a kind of "mundane equipment", which they must purchase and keep in their grimoire in order to use. However this system is much harder to balance than the Superheroic version, because you must carefully design the system so that each archetype is paying roughly equivalent amounts for their abilities (both in terms of CP and Money) and that neither is getting a significant advantage the other cannot.

[Spence]

Fairy Tail is such a world, the most Fighter-ish of the main characters (Erza Scarlet) uses a variant of summoning magic to instantly equip herself with whatever weapons and armor she needs at the time. It is implied her magic has a fairly limited range because she always travels long-distances with an entire wagon full of luggage (which presumably contains her collection of equipment), and that she must own the equipment (she frequently goes shopping for new equipment). Beyond her summoning magic, she functions like any other High-Fantasy Anime Warrior (obscene strength & leaping, incredible durability, knows martial arts, etc). However, that series is likely an example of Superheroic High-Fantasy; considering that money never comes up except as a plot device (you are out of money Lucy, go on this adventure to pay rent!), and nobody bothers looting defeated enemies for their cool magic items (because you'd have to pay their full point cost to learn how to "use" them, and you already invested all your points in "Dragon-Slayer Magic" or "Celestial Summoning").

 

I've always felt that Heroic fantasy campaigns should provide their wizards with heroic equipment comparable to what fighters are getting "for free". For example, a Mages' Staff that grants a bonus to Magic Rolls (in campaigns using such a system), or contains a simple Attack Spell which the wizard can improve with CSLs (and needs the appropriate WF to use).

 

"like any other High-Fantasy Anime Warrior" is my bigger take away

 

I am tending to lean away from traditional high fantasy toward more anime style influenced high fantasy.  Or along the lines of Mouser from Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.  Or any of several great story's where the Hero is a warrior that also uses magic.

 

 

 

This is why I've built my magic system around paying points for talents that control how powerful a magic you can use in what "school" or type, then the spells are not bought with points.  LIke a warrior buying skill levels and familiarities, then using weapons with them that they don't buy with points; spells are the mage's weapons and equipment.

 

But my concern is that if you have two kinds of characters:

Warriors who can fight and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

Wizards who can cast and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)... and warp time and space, summon things, use telekinesis, heal wounds etc, etc

 

Then you've got a basic design imbalance.  Even the way hero balances stuff out with points, if you have warriors who can do 2d6 KA spellcasters who can do 2d6 KA, vs energy defense, and a 3d6 NND, and a 5d6 AE blast etc, then again the wizard has the edge.

 

 

I understand you point.  But for me it is more as case of:

 

You have two kinds of characters:

Warriors who can fight and kill things, use magic and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

Wizards who can use magic, fight and kill things and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

 

The main difference being whether the character leans more toward fighting and killing or casting magic.

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK here is the proposed system for Fantasy Begins

 

Philosophy: What is needed is a super stripped-down primer in magic, as part of a tutorial.  All spells should be simple, direct, and to the point, without multiple effects or complex builds.  All spells should be easy for a beginning player to understand and be easily explained in a single sentence.  As the intro adventure progresses, more complex concepts such as learning new spells and other constructs such as concentration and focus can be added.  Proposed maximum active point cost for this starting adventure is 40 points.  I also propose characters start pretty cheap and build up with rapid chunks of xps as well (100-150 pts at most) into full 175 pt heroic characters like the Champions Begins project.

 

All spells have the same limitations:

• Requires Magic Skill Roll (unmodified by active cost) or an attack roll (-¼)*
• Incantations (-¼)
• Gestures (-¼)
• Extra Time Half Phase (-¼)
• All spells should cost END at least to start (--)

*This means that characters do not have to worry about their exact skill roll with any given spell, its just a straight roll of success or failure for every spell.  However, if a spell has some attack roll vs DMCV or DCV, then there is no magic roll, it simply goes off and may or may not hit.

 

As will be noted below, all this is behind the scenes, it just gives all magic a shared set of requirements that players can easily grasp and that help make them feel "magical."  The limitations allow the GM to exploit limitations in magic as well: a bound or gagged wizard has no spells.

 

Each character chooses a specific type of magic they want to have to begin with.  That magic starts with a set number of spells.  You pay a set amount of points to use that kind of magic.  For example, Bob the Caster chooses Elemental Magic and spends 20-40 of his points to use spells from that Magical School.  There are two levels of magic that characters can choose from: Apprentice and Skilled.  

 

Apprentice level magic is primarily meant for "multiclass" type of characters such as the spell casting warrior or the magical rogue type.  (20 pts)

Skilled level magic is for the spellcasting specialist.  It costs (40 pts), twice as much as Apprentice magic (allowing for a dual magic type character to be built for the premade characters or if a character wants more than one magical school).

 

Behind the scenes, we know that the points spent on the magical ability are the maximum power level that a character can wield in that Magical School .  Thus, spending 20 points on magic gives a maximum power level of 20 active points that the caster can handle.  When people get spells for their magic, they simply pay money to buy or be trained, find them as treasure, or make them up themselves (eventually), just like a warrior type gets their weapons and armor.

 

The cost to use magic is fairly high, which prohibits characters from having a lot of other abilities in addition, so they are more focused.  This means someone who buys no magic has a lot of skill-based flexibility a mage will not, such as transport familiarities, languages, stealth, etc.

 

I propose that a spellcasting character starts with four spells, and I propose they get to choose them like some board games from cards: one attack, one defense, one utility, and then one of any you want.  With the cards, it also can say what the spells do on them, so the Players can hold a card and know what their spell does without writing stuff down.  And, if you keep your card, that means nobody else has the same spells you do.

 

Further, characters that are apprentice level I propose just get the spells given them without the choosing thing; you start with these spells.  Perhaps they should start with fewer spells as well?

 

Magical Schools should be pretty basic and easy to understand categories of familiar concepts.  I'm only going to work up some stuff for three types here

• Elemental Magic (four elements of fire, water, air, and earth, primarily offensive magic.  This is the "blow em up in combat" magic type)
• Nature Magic (druidic type stuff, healing, transforming into an animal, summons, ensnaring with vines, etc.  Primarily a support magic type)
• War Magic (magic to enhance yourself, to be better in combat and personal utility; good for spellswords, etc)

Starting Spells should be the usual basic stuff: An attack, a defense, a utility, and one other.  For clean concepts and simplicity, I propose the Elemental Magic be almost exclusively simple combat stuff, without much utility at all.  And the Nature magic be almost entirely utility with no direct attack damage spells.

 

continued...

[Cantriped]

I understand you point.  But for me it is more as case of:

 

You have two kinds of characters:

Warriors who can fight and kill things, use magic and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

Wizards who can use magic, fight and kill things and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

 

The main difference being whether the character leans more toward fighting and killing or casting magic.

Hero System lends itself more easily to the kind of characters you see while playing the Elder Scrolls games... for example:

"Sure I spend most of my time wearing full-plate and hitting monsters with a giant hammer for the Fighter's Guild... but I'm also a member of the Mages Guild who specializes in Alchemy and Enchanting... Oh and I learned Spark, because lighting campfires with a flint and tinder is for idiots."

 

As opposed to your typical Pathfinder characters who are usually very specialized. For example:

"I'm a Fighter. I know how to use fifty some-odd different weapons, I can run in 50 pounds of Armor, and sleep in my chainmail nightie, and I can hack a dragon in half with one swing of my greatsword. However I am entirely dependent upon finding or having a wizard make me magical equipment, or most of my enemies will turn me into canned meat-paste."

   or...

"I'm a Wizard. I can stop time, travel the planes of existence, and bore holes in mountains with my magic, I can even make magical items for my meat-shie.. I mean "traveling companions". However, I can't fight worth a damn, I get knocked out by a stiff breeze, armor might as well be a straight jacket on me, and if my spellbook falls in the river I might as well just throw myself off a cliff because I'm a dead man."

[Spence]

Hero System lends itself more easily to the kind of characters you see while playing the Elder Scrolls games... for example:

"Sure I spend most of my time wearing full-plate and hitting monsters with a giant hammer for the Fighter's Guild... but I'm also a member of the Mages Guild who specializes in Alchemy and Enchanting... Oh and I learned Spark, because lighting campfires with a flint and tinder is for idiots."

 

As opposed to your typical Pathfinder characters who are usually very specialized. For example:

"I'm a Fighter. I know how to use fifty some-odd different weapons, I can run in 50 pounds of Armor, and sleep in my chainmail nightie, and I can hack a dragon in half with one swing of my greatsword. However I am entirely dependent upon finding or having a wizard make me magical equipment, or most of my enemies will turn me into canned meat-paste."

   or...

"I'm a Wizard. I can stop time, travel the planes of existence, and bore holes in mountains with my magic, I can even make magical items for my meat-shie.. I mean "traveling companions". However, I can't fight worth a damn, I get knocked out by a stiff breeze, armor might as well be a straight jacket on me, and if my spellbook falls in the river I might as well just throw myself off a cliff because I'm a dead man."

 

For some. 

For me I stopped playing the class/level systems years ago.  A little 5th ed recently, but not really enough to claim. 

 

I guess that is why I prefer Hero, I don't feel the need to squeeze my concepts into narrow defined roles.

 

And I haven't player video game style not really RPG's since the early 90's so the Elder Scrolls reference went way over my head

[Christopher R Taylor]

The other post was getting too long, so here's part two 

 

Sample Spells, the Player Version:

obviously the 20 point versions would be half as powerful.  I figure 8 each gives plenty of variety but not too many to pick through and take forever to choose.

 

ELEMENTAL

Dispel Magic

Attempts to eliminate a single magical spell, with a 10½d6 Dispel

Endurance: 4

*Dispel is a pretty straightforward concept.  Both major Magic Schools get this one.

 

Drown

Covers a target's head with water, causing them to suffer ½d6 killing damage a phase for one turn as they drown.

Endurance: 4

*Again, slightly more complicated but not excessively so: damage over time is tough to build, not run and the NND is obvious.

 

Fireball

Explodes in an area 8m across dealing 6d6 fire energy damage.

Endurance: 4

*4m radius is small but its enough to fill most rooms and is a pretty large radius.  Too many of these spells fill a football stadium with fire, and are unwieldy anyway.  The "fire" component

 

Icicle

Launches a needle-sharp spike of hard ice at the target to deal 2½d6 cold energy killing damage

Endurance: 4

*I'd like for this to be armor piercing, but its a simple starting spell that deals really good ranged damage. The "water" component.

 

Kindle

Creates a small fire on any flammable substance at range.

Endurance: 1

*A basic utility spell, nothing fancy; just for campfires, torches, etc.

 

Lightning Bolt

Strikes everything in a 12m line from the caster's hand with lightning, dealing 2d6 electrical energy killing damage

Endurance: 4

*Not forky or anything, because that gets complicated, but its a nasty line attack no range.  The "air" component

 

Stone Armor

Wraps the caster in hard stone plates providing 10 rPD and 10 rED but it will not take hold if you're wearing any armor

Endurance: 4 only to start

*Yes this is high, but it is providing the only protection the caster has.  Without much PD or ED, their total will be the same or lower than the warrior, but Body, CON, and Stun will both be lower as well.  A 10 rPD 3 PD character has only 13 against stun, while the 8 rPD 8 PD one has 16.  The "earth" component

 

Stone Wall

Creates a 2m by 2m, ½m thick barrier of rock with 4 PD, 6 ED, and 7 body at the chosen location.

Endurance: 4

*Barrier is a slightly complex concept, but only for the GM; who has to deal with defenses and body anyway.

 

 

NATURE

Antidote

Cures most poisons with a touch

Endurance: 4

*Details lacking, but the GM can handle the specifics of the dispel.  "Most" will suggest sometimes it won't work, and that's good enough for beginning players

 

Blast of Leaves

Attacks the target's eyes with dry leaves, blinding them for a short period of time with an 8d6 sight flash

Endurance: 4

*Obviously some explanation of flash is required, but the principle of blinding is not hard to understand.

 

Call of the Wolf

Summons a friendly wolf to fight at your side

Endurance: 4

*With the Devoted amicability, the wolf will serve a fair amount of time

 

Cure Wounds

Can be used to heal a target's wounds once a turn for 2d6 body and 2d6 stun

Endurance: 4

*By using the Reduced Re-Use Duration advantage at 1 turn its a pretty simple concept for everyone to keep track of.

 

Dispel Magic

Attempts to eliminate a single magical spell, with a 10½d6 Dispel

Endurance: 4

*Dispel is a pretty straightforward concept.  Both major Magic Schools get this one.

 

Fireflies

Creates a floating cloud of fireflies that light up an 8m radius area around them as long as they are maintained.

Endurance: 2 only to start

*Everyone needs a light spell.

 

Serpent Strike

Attacks the target with a poisonous bolt, dealing a 2d6 Drain to Body that recovers per minute

Endurance: 4

*Drains are pretty straightforward, and this gives the Nature mage an alternate attack from elemental

 

Vines

Tries to immobilize the target in vines with 6 body and 4 PD, 4 ED.

Endurance: 4

*Entangles are pretty basic, I went with standard effect here so that its simpler than rolling.

 

 

WAR

Aegis

Creates a magical floating shield that grants the caster +2 DCV against all attacks

Endurance: 2 only to start

*Ideally, this would act more like a shield with facing, etc, but that's more complex than we want here.

 

Boost Armor

Increases the protection of a suit of armor by 5 normal PD and ED and 2 resistant PD and ED, but does not work on chainmail or plate armor.

Endurance: 2 Only to start

*Why not chain or plate?  So you don't have unkillable juggernaut boy with 10 PD and ED armor.  The normal defense boost is a bit confusing so maybe not ideal but giving too much Resistant Protection away is a bad idea for people already in armor

 

Cauterize

Heals the character 1d6 Body and stops bleeding but can only be used once a fight

Endurance: 1

*Technically it can be used once every minute, but once per fight is a more easy to understand concept and easier to apply.

 

Charge

Increases your half move up to equal your normal full move as long as it is maintained

Endurance: 2 Only to start

*Just adds running, only for half move, but gives a really big half move as a result.  Not much use the first phase, obviously.

 

Cleave

Makes your melee weapon attack all targets in front of you at once in a single swing

Endurance: 

*With the expanded effects advantage, this works on HKA and normal attacks, up to 6 damage classes.  Also uses Area Effect radius, half radius to hit all targets in the front 1m area of the caster

 

Eye of the Tiger

Gives the caster +2 OCV with all attacks

Endurance: 2 Only to start

*The 40 point version of this would be +6, which would make a character pretty darn hard to miss.

 

Empower Weapon

Increases the damage of your weapon by 2 damage classes (½d6 killing or 2d6 normal)

Endurance: 4

*With the expanded effects advantage, this works on RKA, KA, ranged normal, and normal attacks. Anything more than 2 gets out of hand in a hurry with maneuvers etc

 

Warcry

Grants 15 presence, only for a presence attack that phase

Endurance: 3

*Presence attacks would probably be added into a later adventure but the concept is nice for warriors.  This uses standard effect again

 

OK that's just some basic ideas for spells that we could use.  I'll post the builds behind them tomorrow if people want but it should be pretty easy to guess based on the description.