Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[Spence]

Now that is the way spells should have been presented in the setting books.  Simple, clean, to the point.  No build info.

 

In the back of the book and appendix could contain the builds.  All the info should initially be bare and streamlined where ever possible.  Build details presented later in appendixes for the individuals that are interested.

 

Because whether we like it or not, a large percentage of gamers  just want to play, not build. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Christopher Taylor for a intro game, I think you have too many types of magic. I would drop the druidic spells.

[Spence]

Not if you offer a clerical type. It's just pick'a'spell. No real calculations required.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well my thinking was that the offered prebuilt NPCs would be of a variety of types, and among those types would be a druidy type, a wizardy type, etc.  And each one needs some magic to back them up, even if they are pre-built and picked from.  I was thinking maybe one other kind of magic as well.

 

To make some variety, maybe turn the druid heal into a Heal Over Time which I was thinking about last night and almost started a new thread over.  Because DOT rules specifically state you could build a heal over time, but that you'd have to get GM permission to do since healing has the time limit restriction.

 

Another thought: if people spend points to use magic by buying Magic Schools, there needs to be several very tightly focused ones to tempt people to expend their money or magic is too cheap.

 

Other schools I considered: summoning, illusion/mentalism, necromancy, and wizardry (just straight up mysticism and spells dealing with magic, scholarship etc)

[Ninja-Bear]

if you based magic on colleges, why not the basic spells are free with appropriate skill and advanced must be bought with points?

[Cantriped]

Regarding Christopher's magic system (see posts #197 & #200 above):

I'm generally inclined to use existing game mechanics rather than making up entirely new ones for my magic systems, and while this looks superficially like a Power Framework the costs don't look right for either of the existing ones. I'm still on my first cup of coffee so I can't yet do the number crunching to ascertain whether the talent-buy in is more or less cost effective than simply buying a Cosmic VPP for Spells with a Limitation regarding having to collect spells in a Grimoire.

 

Regarding the required limitations:

Although I like the consistency of them, there are two problems in that list.

First:  There is no legal construct in FHC for a "Unmodified Skill Roll". A Required Skill Roll at the -1/4 value has a penalty of -1 per 20 active points. The only way you can get an unmodified roll is to use a flat Activation Roll instead. Also given the design conceit, Attack powers shouldn't be taking this limitation if they aren't required to make a roll.

Second:  Attack powers already require a half-phase action to activate, so Extra Time (Half-Phase; -1/4) is only a legal limitation on defensive and utility spells that do not already require an Attack Action to cast.

 

Regarding the Spell List:

While I understand your reasons for doing so, I hate that you are omitting the game elements. I've given my arguments for why they should be displayed several times before so I'll save everyone the trouble of reading them again but my opinion remains unchanged. Instead I will present an alternative format which I feel is a compromise between the two design conceits. This is the format I intend to use in my own publications*.

 

​Spell Name

​The first paragraph contains one or more sentences of flavor text describing the spell.

The second paragraph contains a summery of the game mechanics of the spell which is complete enough for a new player to use in game without reading or understanding the game elements used to build the spell.

Game Elements:  Base Power, Advantage (+?) (? APs); Limitation (-?). Total Cost: ? points.

Focus Statistics:  Size ?, Mass ?, ? BODY, ? rPD/? rED (ignore or omit any element of this line not used in the spell or campaign).

*This is the format for a standard power, compound powers and power frameworks get formatted somewhat differently, but that's a topic for another day.

 

And here is a filled in Example:

 

Pikt's Bolt of Lightning

By invoking the spirit of a storm elemental through arcane words and gestures, this spell allows the caster to strike their foes with lightning from their fingertips.

When casting this spell, select a point within the caster's reach, and make an attack roll against every target within an area 2m wide and 30m long beginning from that point. Those struck by the spell suffer 2d6 points of Killing Damage versus Energy Defense; the caster cannot choose to reduce the damage of this spell, and when striking walls and other obstacles this spell does not blow open large holes in them. Casting this spell requires gestures, incantations, and the expenditure of 4 END; as such it cannot be cast while the caster is bound (including being Grabbed or Entangled) or gagged (including being Silenced by magic), and casting will fail if the caster is struck while casting.

Game Elements:  RKA 2d6 (vs. ED), Area of Effect (30m Line, Nonselective; +1/4) (37 APs); Beam (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  13 points.

 

My system has the advantages of giving the new player everything they need to use the spell without referencing another book or having a degree in Hero Studies, but also giving the GM everything they need to toolkit the spell to their magic system (or say that I "did it wrong", and change it to suit their design conceit).

 

Edit: Forgot to put No Range on the example spell.

[Brian Stanfield]

 

 

This is why I've built my magic system around paying points for talents that control how powerful a magic you can use in what "school" or type, then the spells are not bought with points.  LIke a warrior buying skill levels and familiarities, then using weapons with them that they don't buy with points; spells are the mage's weapons and equipment.

 

But my concern is that if you have two kinds of characters:

Warriors who can fight and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

Wizards who can cast and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)... and warp time and space, summon things, use telekinesis, heal wounds etc, etc

 

Then you've got a basic design imbalance.  Even the way hero balances stuff out with points, if you have warriors who can do 2d6 KA spellcasters who can do 2d6 KA, vs energy defense, and a 3d6 NND, and a 5d6 AE blast etc, then again the wizard has the edge.

 

 

This is starting to look like the problem I was wrestling with in my other post about VPP magic. Your concern about game balance is the big one in Fantasy Hero. But I'm more inclined to say that warriors and wizards begin to distinguish themselves based on their point-builds over time. Things like telekinesis, flight, and fancy magic stuff gets to be more expensive, and so isn't as much of a concern for beginners. But as they progress, the points balance out. At least in theory. This is why I always require wizards to pay for their spells, always. If spells are treated as other equipment, then they could amass piles of devastating spells for no cost, which then leads to the unbalancing effect you point out. If they have to pay points, you will have:

 

Wizards who can cast and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc) but less effectively because they decided to spend their points on spells, such as warp time and space, summon things, use telekinesis, heal wounds etc, etc, but only as much as they can afford. So they can choose between a few more powerful spells (which won't be available for a beginner with an AP cap), or become more generalized and therefore not overly dominant in the game.

 

Warriors who can fight and kill things, and do other skills stuff a lot more effectively​ because they'd have spent their points on CSLs and talents that the wizard can't because he's specialized in spells.

 

​This is of course a problem of defining the magic system as a whole. How does END fit in (another one of my most recent threads), and stuff like that. But if there is no point cost, it seems like one of the most efficient things balancing magic in the game is lost.

[Christopher R Taylor]

While I understand your reasons for doing so, I hate that you are omitting the game elements.

 

The theory is that the GM gets the sausage with all the stuff showing, the players just get a super simplified summary.  Remember: this is a tutorial to introduce players who've never played the game before.  As the tutorial wraps up, then the guts can be pulled out.  They can learn the advanced lessons at that point.

 

Attack powers already require a half-phase action to activate, so Extra Time (Half-Phase; -1/4) is only a legal limitation on defensive and utility spells that do not already require an Attack Action to cast.

 

All this does is make them a full phase action.  All you can do that phase is attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Here's how I'd do that:

 

Lightning Bolt

Range: 150m        

END Cost: 3          Gestures: Yes

Active Cost: 30      Incantation: Yes

Magic Roll: -3        Concentrate: no

Focus: no              Casting Time: Half Phase

Effect: Attacks the target with a blast of electricity dealing 2d6 energy killing damage

 

Quick, to the point, familiar, all the info you need right up front.  Straight up and to the point, without any info the players don't need.

A spell Powered by Hero. Looks a lot like a D&D spell, but we get the concept behind it. It can be tinkered with (maybe it needs to indicate whether it targets an individual or an area, for example), but it need not be complex.

 

The other post was getting too long, so here's part two 

 

Sample Spells, the Player Version:

obviously the 20 point versions would be half as powerful.  I figure 8 each gives plenty of variety but not too many to pick through and take forever to choose.

So if I am a Newbie, what questions could arise? I see questions like whether it works on others or only me (eg. Warcry), what range it works at, whether Dispel has to be cast to block the spell or can remove its effects later, etc. A lot like questions that arise in other games where there is not a fully detailed system behind the game elements.

 

And that's fine. The GM makes a ruling and we move on.

[Cantriped]

Regarding Brian's last post:

There are also design considerations regarding the number of spells known which we tend to inherit from other systems.

 

For example, in D&D/Pathfinder a character might know forty or fifty different spells. However, mechanically most of them only exist because the caster has to fill out up to nine "spell-levels" with progressively better options (because nobody wants to use their 2nd level slots to cast a 1st level Burning Hands spell), not to mention the dozens of different defensive and utility spells the system makes you need.

In campaigns D&D as their inspiration, spellcasters need to have a way of having lots of spells without having to pay too much for all the ones which are far, far worse than their best spells. Traditionally, such characters use a VPP and put Charges, Gestures, and Incantations on all their spells. That way a spell which is weaker or cannot be used as often takes up less space in the pool than one that is stronger or can be used more often. Since they are using a VPP, the GM can control the maximum APs of their spells through its Control cost, and the game doesn't get imbalanced by the Wizard finding lots of new spells as loot because they can still only memorize as many as their Pool can fit at once.

I know VPPs are an advanced topic, not generally suitable for new players... but frankly, playing a Wizard in pathfinder is an advanced topic, not generally suitable for new players too, so its not like we should be all that surprised.

 

In contrast: Most of your anime and manga style "Wizards" and "Sorcerers" only know a few, powerful spells. Lina Inverse (the iconic anime sorceress) only knows a half a dozen different spells she uses regularly, including Levitation, Fireball, and "Dragon-Slave" (the WMD of attack spells). The same is true of most of the Fairy Tail Wizards. But to be fair, they are also all examples of Superheroic Fantasy. The characters who are martially inclined typically carry unique weapons and armor which they rarely lose or replace, and which almost never break. Otherwise they have "non-magical" techniques which allow them to compete with the magic users they share screen time with.

 

Regarding Christopher's last post:

The theory is that the GM gets the sausage with all the stuff showing, the players just get a super simplified summary.  Remember: this is a tutorial to introduce players who've never played the game before.  As the tutorial wraps up, then the guts can be pulled out.  They can learn the advanced lessons at that point.

This is where you and I have disagreed before. I recognize that the purpose of a tutorial is to ease players into the game system. But I disagree with the premise that hiding the game elements actually achieves that goal. I think new players need to see both the simplified summary and the Game Elements side by side so that they can see how the game elements translate into what they see during the game.

At the very least you have to include enough information for the player/GM to reverse engineer the Game Elements of these spells without guesswork. For example, FHC omits the Game Elements of Weapons and Armor... However, because it gives clear and concise rules for how they are built, and notes their Active and Real costs, a Player or GM can fairly easily reverse engineer them, and double check their work.

 

All this does is make them a full phase action.  All you can do that phase is attack.

RAW, no it doesn't. However, Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2) can be used instead, and would make all spells take a full phase to cast, regardless of their normal activation parameters without having to adjust it's value. Meaning it could be applied to "All Slots" of a power Framework and reduce its cost appropriately.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm curious too. My buddy (the source of this thread) was having enough trouble with understanding how all the characteristics and skills worked together along with combat. When we sorted that out and he ran into the powers section of Fantasy Hero Complete, he just shut down like he ran into a wall. The powers, while the engine that makes Hero System work, are admittedly not easy.

 

Here's a suggestion.  Have the product treat spells as if they were Talents.  Have a cost, small stat block that looks something like D&D's spell stat block, and a short description of what it does.  Put the Powers section at the very back of the book, in the appendix, and then the "game element code" of each of the spells after it in much the same way as is done with the Talents.  

 

There could be a magic system that goes along with it, either implied or explicit, or they could just be spells from the Grimoire.  They could have variations -- maybe each one has a weak version and a powerful version, with their point costs and whatever makes them different from the basic one (for instance: Powerful Fireball - does 3d6 with an Explosion radius of 18m; cost 21 points).

 

The theory is that the GM gets the sausage with all the stuff showing, the players just get a super simplified summary.  Remember: this is a tutorial to introduce players who've never played the game before.  As the tutorial wraps up, then the guts can be pulled out.  They can learn the advanced lessons at that point.

 

The GM should be able to run the game without having the sausage recipe, but it's there for when they're ready for it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

However, Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2) can be used instead, and would make all spells take a full phase to cast, regardless of their normal activation parameters without having to adjust it's value.

 

 

I am pretty sure adding an extra half phase to a half phase maneuver makes it a full phase.

 

The GM should be able to run the game without having the sausage recipe, but it's there for when they're ready for it.

 

 

Right, and eventually the players get to see it too, just not at first.  Baby steps.

[Brian Stanfield]

 

Here's a suggestion.  Have the product treat spells as if they were Talents.  Have a cost, small stat block that looks something like D&D's spell stat block, and a short description of what it does.  Put the Powers section at the very back of the book, in the appendix, and then the "game element code" of each of the spells after it in much the same way as is done with the Talents.  

 

There could be a magic system that goes along with it, either implied or explicit, or they could just be spells from the Grimoire.  They could have variations -- maybe each one has a weak version and a powerful version, with their point costs and whatever makes them different from the basic one (for instance: Powerful Fireball - does 3d6 with an Explosion radius of 18m; cost 21 points).

 

 

The GM should be able to run the game without having the sausage recipe, but it's there for when they're ready for it.

 

This is pretty much what I was shooting for at the beginning. The stuff up front can have references to other books so the details may be looked up if desired. But you throw stat blocks up there, no matter how simple, and people get freaked out and wonder what they're supposed to do with that information which they don't understand yet, and then begin to dread that they need to know it all before they can learn the parts. At least this is what I watched happen to my buddy (remember, he is the inspiration for this thread). If it references the Grimoire then the details can be learned when the player is ready. 

[Cantriped]

I am pretty sure adding an extra half phase to a half phase maneuver makes it a full phase.

That is a logical position, but that isn't how the Extra Time modifier works. Extra Time doesn't "add to" the time taken it activate the power, it replaces the normal activation time of the power with one specified by the Modifier (see FHC 123). There is also the (albeit) minor issue that Extra Time (Half Phase; -1/4) doesn't exist in FHC.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well if that's the case, then either we'd have to do something different or create a half phase activation time limitation, so that characters can only take a half phase action if they cast a spell, or the whole phase if they attack with a spell.

[Brian Stanfield]

OK here is the proposed system for Fantasy Begins

 

Philosophy: What is needed is a super stripped-down primer in magic, as part of a tutorial.  All spells should be simple, direct, and to the point, without multiple effects or complex builds.  All spells should be easy for a beginning player to understand and be easily explained in a single sentence.  As the intro adventure progresses, more complex concepts such as learning new spells and other constructs such as concentration and focus can be added.  Proposed maximum active point cost for this starting adventure is 40 points.  I also propose characters start pretty cheap and build up with rapid chunks of xps as well (100-150 pts at most) into full 175 pt heroic characters like the Champions Begins project.

 

All spells have the same limitations:

• Requires Magic Skill Roll (unmodified by active cost) or an attack roll (-¼)*
• Incantations (-¼)
• Gestures (-¼)
• Extra Time Half Phase (-¼)
• All spells should cost END at least to start (--)

*This means that characters do not have to worry about their exact skill roll with any given spell, its just a straight roll of success or failure for every spell.  However, if a spell has some attack roll vs DMCV or DCV, then there is no magic roll, it simply goes off and may or may not hit.

 

As will be noted below, all this is behind the scenes, it just gives all magic a shared set of requirements that players can easily grasp and that help make them feel "magical."  The limitations allow the GM to exploit limitations in magic as well: a bound or gagged wizard has no spells.

 

Each character chooses a specific type of magic they want to have to begin with.  That magic starts with a set number of spells.  You pay a set amount of points to use that kind of magic.  For example, Bob the Caster chooses Elemental Magic and spends 20-40 of his points to use spells from that Magical School.  There are two levels of magic that characters can choose from: Apprentice and Skilled.  

 

Apprentice level magic is primarily meant for "multiclass" type of characters such as the spell casting warrior or the magical rogue type.  (20 pts)

Skilled level magic is for the spellcasting specialist.  It costs (40 pts), twice as much as Apprentice magic (allowing for a dual magic type character to be built for the premade characters or if a character wants more than one magical school).

 

Behind the scenes, we know that the points spent on the magical ability are the maximum power level that a character can wield in that Magical School .  Thus, spending 20 points on magic gives a maximum power level of 20 active points that the caster can handle.  When people get spells for their magic, they simply pay money to buy or be trained, find them as treasure, or make them up themselves (eventually), just like a warrior type gets their weapons and armor.

 

The cost to use magic is fairly high, which prohibits characters from having a lot of other abilities in addition, so they are more focused.  This means someone who buys no magic has a lot of skill-based flexibility a mage will not, such as transport familiarities, languages, stealth, etc.

 

I propose that a spellcasting character starts with four spells, and I propose they get to choose them like some board games from cards: one attack, one defense, one utility, and then one of any you want.  With the cards, it also can say what the spells do on them, so the Players can hold a card and know what their spell does without writing stuff down.  And, if you keep your card, that means nobody else has the same spells you do.

 

Further, characters that are apprentice level I propose just get the spells given them without the choosing thing; you start with these spells.  Perhaps they should start with fewer spells as well?

 

Magical Schools should be pretty basic and easy to understand categories of familiar concepts.  I'm only going to work up some stuff for three types here

• Elemental Magic (four elements of fire, water, air, and earth, primarily offensive magic.  This is the "blow em up in combat" magic type)
• Nature Magic (druidic type stuff, healing, transforming into an animal, summons, ensnaring with vines, etc.  Primarily a support magic type)
• War Magic (magic to enhance yourself, to be better in combat and personal utility; good for spellswords, etc)

Starting Spells should be the usual basic stuff: An attack, a defense, a utility, and one other.  For clean concepts and simplicity, I propose the Elemental Magic be almost exclusively simple combat stuff, without much utility at all.  And the Nature magic be almost entirely utility with no direct attack damage spells.

 

continued...

 

I like the idea of characters starting with 100 points and working their way up through the first adventures. 

 

As for the difference in talent levels, I'm down with that. But I'm wondering, if you keep the talent system, if you'd have a cap to the number of spells available? As Cantriped pointed out, it's starting to look like a VPP. I'm as concerned with the number of spells available as the AP cap because if you make the spells free, a player could have a ridiculous number of spells. If you introduce some limit to the number of spells known you'd have to introduce a mechanic for that. 2xINT number of spells? Total of Real Points can't exceed the AP cap in the talent (in which case, it is a VPP).

 

I guess for a beginners' product you could select just a handful to start the game and not worry about all of this stuff, right? 

 

As for the magical skills and spells, I think matching the Hero System Grimoire is the most attractive option. Schools and spells are already there, and you could just pick a few for beginners. Then you don't have to worry about explaining the builds, you only have to reference the book and page numbers of the already-existing spells. I'm wondering if you've based this (roughly speaking) on the Kestrel Grimoire you created?

[Brian Stanfield]

Regarding Brian's last post:

There are also design considerations regarding the number of spells known which we tend to inherit from other systems. . . .

 

. . . I know VPPs are an advanced topic, not generally suitable for new players... but frankly, playing a Wizard in pathfinder is an advanced topic, not generally suitable for new players too, so its not like we should be all that surprised.

 

 

And here we run into the problem of a reasonable magic system, yet again. So many threads on this! I guess You already mentioned that what Christopher Taylor has presented looks a lot like a VPP, and I'm inclined to agree if there is some sort of cap on how many spells can be used. This would have to be resolved. 

 

But then again, I'm really looking at trying to create something that works for a first-time exposure to Fantasy Hero, and will only run for a few adventures. Once they get their feet wet, with all the data neatly hidden from view but dutifully cited, then they can begin to learn Fantasy Hero Complete. So really, for 5 or so adventures, if there is an arbitrary limit of, say, 5 spells to start with, and then maybe a couple learned along the way from scrolls or something, it gives the players enough to run with. 

 

So with that in mind . . .

 

 

At the very least you have to include enough information for the player/GM to reverse engineer the Game Elements of these spells without guesswork. For example, FHC omits the Game Elements of Weapons and Armor... However, because it gives clear and concise rules for how they are built, and notes their Active and Real costs, a Player or GM can fairly easily reverse engineer them, and double check their work.

 

My explicit goal (in this thread only) is to not create something that has to live beyond a few adventures. So there is no need for "reverse engineering" the spells. I would prefer referencing spells from the Hero System Grimoire, but in simplified form as Chris posted, with the more detailed build information cited for their further development. I know my buddy's mind shut down when he looked at spells and saw all of the abbreviations, modifiers, etc. I don't want to dissuade people from having access to this info, but I am really emphasizing hiding the technical stuff away for another day (but making it easy to find when the time is right). 

 

What I imagine all of this doing is to create some quick characters and have some adventures, and then discover everything they'd do differently with their characters now that they understand how the game plays a little better. This was my buddy's suggestion, and it makes a lot of sense. Nobody ever likes their first character they build for these very reasons. 

 

The more we can strip out the frontloaded information, at least for absolute beginners, while still staying true to the game, the better off they will be. They can forget about what all the terminology means and just focus on playing. The less technical jargon we can hide, the better. 

 

This is, again, for beginners only. This isn't intended to be a substitute for the full game. Computer games always have those hokey tutorials where you press the buttons when they tell you to, and move to pick up that highlighted item, etc. I'm not trying to recreate that, but I do have in mind something where players can whip something up and try it out with as little reading and preparation as possible. Included in this concern is making sure there is as simplified an interface as possible so they don't get hung up on the data.

 

What I don't want to happen is for someone to give up because those spells seems cool, but can't figure out what "RKA 2d6 (vs. ED), Area of Effect (30m Line, Nonselective; +1/4) (37 APs); Beam (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  13 points" actually means. I seriously watched my friend go into a shell when he was presented with the spells for Fantasy Hero. He was excited up until that point, and then just flipped to some other stuff that would hopefully make sense. I literally watched his interest fade away as he looked through the spells. Even with cool names and explanations, he still got hungup on the terminology which he felt he needed to know. 

 

My goal is simply to say, "Hey, there's all this stuff to know in the complete rules, but here's how it works in simple form. Don't worry about all that build information and other stuff. You can find more details in Fantasy Hero Complete when you're ready for it." 

[Christopher R Taylor]

As for the magical skills and spells, I think matching the Hero System Grimoire is the most attractive option. Schools and spells are already there, and you could just pick a few for beginners. Then you don't have to worry about explaining the builds, you only have to reference the book and page numbers of the already-existing spells. I'm wondering if you've based this (roughly speaking) on the Kestrel Grimoire you created?

 

No, the Codex is far more complex and has a lot more variety.  This is something new, and the reason I didn't just go with the Grimoire spells is because they're so varied that characters end up with just about anything they want in any kind of spell school.  For example, just in the Air spells there is an RKA, telekinesis, barrier, change environment, images, NND, flight, boost to sailing ships, barrier and desolidification just in the few pages of spells for Air alone.  Now that's perfectly fine if, like with my Codex (which has several times as many air spells) you're just presenting a complete book of spells for GMs to pick from.

 

But if you're trying to create a system, a structure from which GMs can run a game around that controls magic and spellcasting to be in line with everything else in the game rather than a complete open ended variable power pool mages get, while other people get... well, stuff to hit people with.  So the elemental group is tightly controlled to be little utility or flexibility but lots of magical power for combat, for instance.  If you're an elemental mage you blow things up real good and can protect yourself, but you don't make people walk on water or open gates to travel through.

 

So we could use the Grimoire spells, and in fact I'd rather -- it save the trouble of making up new spells, and segues well into published materials.  I was just trying to suggest how they could be set up and presented rather than reinvent the wheel.  But if that's done, I'd suggest the best way is to set up the spells in narrow categories of focus so that the cost of being a mage is reasonable, and the flexibility is controlled.

 

 

As for the difference in talent levels, I'm down with that. But I'm wondering, if you keep the talent system, if you'd have a cap to the number of spells available? 

 

Well for the just "here's how to learn to play Fantasy Hero kids!" we don't need to worry about that.  Its just a way of getting people into the game and learning how it all works.  At the end of the book or if a campaign book is put out to be a companion, yeah you'd need some kind of structure to control how many and what people know.  I do like the idea of a "power pool" sort of idea where you can only "memorize" a certain number of spells (have them ready to use at a given time) which would make the number you have less meaningful.  But as I see it, that's not what this kind of book needs to worry about.

[Eisenmann]

Right, and eventually the players get to see it too, just not at first.  Baby steps.

 

 

If we're talking about a Red Boxy Fantasy Hero here, the GM's job should be as commensurately simplified as that of the players. And perhaps Expert provides the peek into the depths of the game.

 

Just a comment from the newb peanut gallery, who's still following along.

[phydaux]

You should make up 8-12 175-point characters of different types for them to choose from, with Stats, Skills, Talents, Magic, weapons & armor...  Yes, making 12 "throwaway" characters is a lot of work.  That's what being a Gm is about.  Plus, once you've made them, guess what?  You've just populated your world with ass-kicking NPCs you can reuse over and over.  So the work isn't wasted.

 

Is there a way to help them out without an experienced GM to pre-generate 12 characters to choose from, etc., as you describe?

 

Sure.  WE make the characters.  

 

So what do we need?

 

Human melee type

Dwarf melee type

Elf fighter/archer

Human archer/ranger

Half-elf archer/ranger

Human rogue

Elf rogue

Half-elf rogue

Halfling rogue

Human arcane/healer

Elf arcane/healer

Half-elf arcane/healer

Half-ork melee

 

That's actually 13, not 12 (if we keep the Half-ork).  Ideally each of those except the Dwarf (and the Half-ork) will also need a female variant.  So if we do a full list then that's 24 characters.

 

Stats, Skills, Talents, Perks, Powers, Complications, Gear, Name, and a one paragraph character description/history.

 

Are we doing 150+25?  Are we doing 5th or 6th?

 

Yeah, this will take a few hours to crank out.  But once it's done then your whole fantasy world is populated.  Plus you'll have hand-out characters so you can run one-off games & demo games to your heart's content.

[massey]

People are still talking about different things here. Everybody has their own product that they want to see, and when there's a thread about a new product someone else wants, they run in and say "don't forget about this cool thing that we need" and try to morph it into the thing that they want.

 

I don't really blame them, they may be right. It just shows the amount of product that Fantasy Hero needs. There's a lot of support that it hasn't gotten.

 

The problem with FH is that it gets compared to the single most supported game system that there has ever been. There's more D&D/Pathfinder stuff out there than Hero Games could ever dream of making.

 

So what kind of stuff do we need to see in Fantasy Hero? Overall what should the product line have? Here is my suggestion (not that this will happen):

 

 

Fantasy Hero Introductory Set -- what we are talking about here, something the GM can read through in an afternoon and the players can read in 20 minutes and be ready to play. Maybe 5 pre-made adventures with it.

 

Fantasy Hero modules -- pre-built games that someone can pick up and play. Nothing too complex. "You open the door, there is an Orc guarding a chest." Basic, well balanced, fun modules that can be connected together into a story but don't have to be.

 

Fantasy Hero Bestiaries -- our monster manuals.

 

A default Fantasy Hero setting -- I know we've got several different settings available, but Hero needs to pick one and stick with it. Turakian Age and Tuala Morn can take a hike. We need Hero's version of Greyhawk. We need a standard that everything else points towards. You can disagree with me on this, but you'll be wrong.

 

Fantasy Hero Complete -- the complete rules you need to play the game, angled towards a fantasy setting

 

--

 

That's what we need. Other stuff is fine, but it's extra. The core fantasy line needs to be able to walk you through from completely raw beginner, to cantankerous old fart who argues we should bring back figured characteristics. But it needs to bring you along gradually, each step of the way.

[Lucius]

A question for any new people that may still be reading:

Picking up a new game, are you more excited to see familiar character types like Elf, Dwarf, Human, etc, where you already sort of know what they are and are curious "how does THIS game handle them?" -
Or would you rather see at least one or two rare and exotic options you have seen in few games before or perhaps not at all, like Pixies or Goblins (as playable options?)-
Or would you like to see at least one or two totally new options that make you wonder "What strange new thing is this? What is a 'vixie' and will it be fun to play?"

While I'm asking questions: how many is too many such options? How few is too few?

 

Sure.  WE make the characters.  
 
So what do we need?
 
Human melee type
Dwarf melee type
Elf fighter/archer
Human archer/ranger
Half-elf archer/ranger
Human rogue
Elf rogue
Half-elf rogue
Halfling rogue
Human arcane/healer
Elf arcane/healer
Half-elf arcane/healer
Half-ork melee
 
That's actually 13, not 12 (if we keep the Half-ork).  Ideally each of those except the Dwarf (and the Half-ork) will also need a female variant.  So if we do a full list then that's 24 characters.

Not necessarily. Present the above in a gender-free format, and give each two lines that run, for example, "Suggested names for male Human fighter: Brandon, Volstave, Hawk, Hasan, Moto, Shoka" and "Suggested names for female Human fighter: Morgan, Helga, Zandipay, Sana, Hatina, Belinda." If we don't even want to delve into the question of "are there female Dwarves?" we can just have a line for "Suggested Dwarf names."

Also: I don't think Half Elves are necessary in a beginning product, and why have Half Orcs instead of Orcs?

Lucius Alexander

This is a half-palindromedary. Go around to the other end and you'll see the other half.

[Brian Stanfield]

Sure.  WE make the characters. . .

 

. . . Stats, Skills, Talents, Perks, Powers, Complications, Gear, Name, and a one paragraph character description/history.

 

Are we doing 150+25?  Are we doing 5th or 6th?

 

Yeah, this will take a few hours to crank out.  But once it's done then your whole fantasy world is populated.  Plus you'll have hand-out characters so you can run one-off games & demo games to your heart's content.

 

Very good point. What do you think of the quick-build templates that I brought up before, or the quick-build cards that are coming out this year at High Rock Press? Although I like the simplicity you're bringing to the table, do you think there is merit in offering a simplified character creation method rather than offering a list of pre-gens?

 

With this in mind, Christopher Taylor (IIRC) suggested starting with 100 points, and letting the next 75 come from the introductory adventures. Characters could buy or acquire new skills, etc., as they learn how the game plays. It's not a bad idea at all, and if we gave some base templates to work from we could create some basic characters in a few minutes, and then develop them over time.

 

By the way, I think that we're going with 6e, more specifically Fantasy Hero Complete since that's the one that's actually getting some support at this point. We shouldn't tag an out of print book or ruleset to a beginner product.

[Brian Stanfield]

If we're talking about a Red Boxy Fantasy Hero here, the GM's job should be as commensurately simplified as that of the players. And perhaps Expert provides the peek into the depths of the game.

 

Just a comment from the newb peanut gallery, who's still following along.

 

Thanks for hanging in there! You're right, we need to consider what the GM needs to know right "out of the box" as well. So far we've been focusing on the character creation, with the assumption (perhaps?) that the GM would be the experienced one. But what if the GM was new as well? We covered a lot of what the beginning player needs as far as charts and such. What is the bare minimum a new GM would need? There is a great free download for a GM screen, but it gives all kinds of crazy details. Perhaps we'd need a new, simplified GM screen with all the tables and info in one place. What else?

[Lucius]

Very good point. What do you think of the quick-build templates that I brought up before, or the quick-build cards that are coming out this year at High Rock Press? Although I like the simplicity you're bringing to the table, do you think there is merit in offering a simplified character creation method rather than offering a list of pre-gens?

On that note, another question for those new to Hero System:

 

Do you use Hero Designer? And if so, how helpful is it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I find it handy to have a palindromedy, even if a palindromedary has no visible hands.