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Alternate builds for Turn Undead?


mallet

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Hi all, 

 

just wondering if anyone has ever built an alternate method for the Turn Undead talent? 

 

I actually like the current Turn Undead method for the most part, but I do bump on a couple of aspects of it. First, at its base RAW ability, it is already over the recommended Active Point limit for a Standard Heroic game. I don't have too much of an issue with this as I don't mind if starting players go over slightly the limit with one or two abilities, but given that it only cost 2 xp to get an additional +10 PRE to your Turn Undead check, I can see this "quickly" escalating well above the Active Point limit. With a 4 xp spend it already becomes an 80 Active Point ability which is the upper end of Standard Superheroic powers. 

 

Yet, if the GM restricts the spending of XP to raise it, then the Priest/Cleric of the party will have one of their main "traditional" abilities quashed so that it never grows in power, or at least not until possibly very late in the campaign. 

 

Assuming the character has a PRE of 15, at base ability, this would give him/her a PRE of 65 to Turn Undead, or 15D6. An average roll would be about 52. That is just under what would be needed to destroy one skeleton or zombie, but could cause 2 skeletons to run away, or 4 skeletons to freeze in fear and lose one phase. That is pretty good, but even the book says this is a relatively low level of power, yet to boost it up to being considered even a medium level of power, would blow out any Active Point cap in most games. 

 

Also, the sheer number of dice needing to be rolled gets pretty crazy. 15D6? dang. that might not be a lot in a Super Hero game, but in a Standard heroic game that's a lot of time spent rolling and counting. Also, I feel like something like a Turn Undead ability should cost at least some END to use, but 6 END seems maybe a tad high in a Standard Heroic game, but going by RAW you can't add the Costs END limitation to a power, then add Reduced END to it as well (at least I can't get Hero Designer to allow me to do that).

 

I've thought about maybe splitting it up into 2 abilities, a bit of a cheat and work around, I know, but maybe something like a Faith power that give X number of +PRE that uses the Standard Effect rule, which could then be used for not only Turn Undead, but also other Faith based effects (what those are defined as I'm not sure of just yet, maybe Oratory skill rolls, Aid to Healing spells, etc...).

 

So for example our 15 PRE priest in question would have:

 

Faith (+30 PRE for Faith based abilities, must use Standard Effect for any bonus dice provided)

and

Turn Undead (+30 PRE, as defined in the book)

 

So when Turning Undead he would roll 9D6+18, which would give an average roll of about 49, slightly less then the base and probably cost a bit more (I haven't costed out the Faith power with lims and advantages yet), vs the RAW ability, but it would also not break the Active Point limit (a cheat, I know) and could potentially have more use with some other abilities.  Then the player can chose to use XP to raise either the Faith power, or the Turn Undead ability. 

 

Any thoughts on this, or has anyone built another version of Turn Undead that they found works better for them then what is given in the books?

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It all comes down to how the GM wants it to work, like Holy Water.

 

It would be possible to build it based on an opposed roll between the cleric's relationship with his deity (built around contacts) and the aggregated evil in front of him.

 

It could also simply be a flaw in undead builds exploited by clerics. If the cleric's skill is high enough the undead flees, higher again it falls apart. Each undead reduces the roll for the next one until a roll fails.

 

Doc

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I always make the Priestcraft Skill PRE based , so it can give a PRE bonus.

 

 

I have used several builds over the years, but not extensively playtested any.

 

Naked Does Knockback Advantage for PRE.

 

Naked Does BODy Advantage for PRE.

 

Running, Usable as Attack, Damage over Time, suitably Limited and Linked to PRE or Striking Appearance.

 

A massive Attack Vs Limited Defense Killing Attack with an "All or Nothing" Limitation (to either destroy the monster or leave it undamaged but presumably shaken because it will have felt the Divine Wrath focused on it and realized it can be destroyed.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary installs a steering wheel on a zombie

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I always just used it as a presence attack.  no special skill involved, but undead take a vulnerability to presence attacks from "holy men."   Particularly weak ones like skeletons or zombies take x2 effect, most others x1½.  And you have to give them a physical complication that mindless automatons are affected by presence attacks.

 

Then, priests can use a "Turn Undead" ritual that boosts their presence significantly for the purposes, and I ruled that any undead that has the x2 vulnerability will be just outright destroyed if they suffer more than PRE+30 in effect. 

 

Its a bit of handwaving, but it takes advantage of complications more than any special powers.

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I've never been fond of the Turn Undead Talents in Fantasy Hero and Fantasy Hero Complete so I'm generally disinclined to use or allow them in my campaigns. The idea that you can destroy an undead creature with a presence attack is just patently ridiculous to me.

 

If I had to house rule something of the like into existence, its construction would depend on how Undead are constructed:

 

If all Undead are the result of Necromancy spells or Spawning abilities (and are therefore considered to be Summoned beings mechanically) than a Dispel Summoned Undead would be an appropriate way to represent a power that either destroys undead completely, or leaves them "unharmed". But I usually give such Summon constructs Inherent in my write-ups specifically so that a generic Dispel Summon won't poof spawned zombies and vampires.

 

If I wanted to represent a more recent edition of D&D's take on Turn Undead:

"Channel Positive Energy" would be an Area of Effect, AVAD (Power Defense) Killing Attack which Does BODY, and had Limited (Only Affects The Undead). I'd price the base power as per HKA, but allow the character to add their PRE to Damage instead of STR (and adding PRE in this manner would cost END just like STR) as a house rule (or campaign rule if I'm publishing it). The Healing version of that special ability would be a similar number of active points worth of Area of Effect, Delayed Re-Use (1 Turn) Simplified Healing which would have Limited (Does Not Affect The Undead).

"Command Undead" would be Summon Undead, Expanded Class (Any Undead; +1/2); Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2). As a campaign rule it would simply target the closest undead first, or at the GM's options, the closest undead of the specified type (such as Zombies or Skeletons) first.

"Turn Undead" would either be Mind Control, Only To Force Undead To Flee, or the more typical Added Presence, Only To Force Undead To Flee. Either way the existence of such a power as a campaign element would require every undead it could affect be built as a Character (with appropriate the Life Support and Automaton Powers) instead of as an Automaton. I might Link Turn Undead to Channel Positive Energy, and further Limit Turn Undead to only affect Undead damaged by Channel Positive Energy.

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I see the destruction of lesser undead through turning as not a blast of power that wipes them out, but holy power disrupting the necromantic energy that animates them.

Both are valid points of view. It depends upon the special effects applied to the Undead in any given campaign setting. For example:

In a modern survival horror game, Zombies may not be "animated by necromantic energy" at all, they could simply be hosts to a fungal or viral infection. Turn Undead would have no place is such a campaign, even though the enemies are certainly considered "Undead".

In 3rd Edition D&D & Pathfinder, all undead beings are "animated" by "Negative Energy" and all living beings are "animated" by "Positive Energy"; either type of energy can be used to heal creatures animated by it, or harm creatures animated by the opposing energy. This rule is in effect regardless of whether the Undead is created by necromantic magic (such as skeletons, and zombies) or occurs "naturally" (such as ghosts and vampires). Further, Turn Undead is a special ability (a Feat) which requires Channel Positive Energy, but cannot damage Undead, it only sends them fleeing. Command Undead is a similar special ability which requires Channel Negative Energy, but cannot repair Undead, it only dominates them.

 

Part of my complaint about the extant Turn Undead talent in Fantasy Hero or Fantasy Hero Complete (which represents the 2nd edition D&D mechanics for Turning) is that it applies to all of the common forms of Undead, including vampires, lichs and other "greater undead". The idea that my 800-point master vampire (with 25 PRE) could be consistently one-shot by a 175-point cleric or paladin with a 12 CP Talent and +5d6 Presence Attack from other sources (Total Cost: 37 points if they buy it as a straight 35 PRE) is absolutely unacceptable.

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"Turn Undead" would either be Mind Control, Only To Force Undead To Flee, or the more typical Added Presence, Only To Force Undead To Flee. Either way the existence of such a power as a campaign element would require every undead it could affect be built as a Character (with appropriate the Life Support and Automaton Powers) instead of as an Automaton.

 

Well, actually.....

 

I always just used it as a presence attack.  no special skill involved, but undead take a vulnerability to presence attacks from "holy men."   Particularly weak ones like skeletons or zombies take x2 effect, most others x1½.  And you have to give them a physical complication that mindless automatons are affected by presence attacks.

 

 

I would agree with your main point here about any "turn undead" ability being inappropriate in the kind of game you describe, or certainly inappropriate against such "zombies."

 

 For example:

In a modern survival horror game, Zombies may not be "animated by necromantic energy" at all, they could simply be hosts to a fungal or viral infection. Turn Undead would have no place is such a campaign, even though the enemies are certainly considered "Undead".

 

But I do have to ask: Considered undead by who? I've been unwilling host to viral and fungal infections and I certainly don't consider myself undead.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Although the palindromedary maintains I'm a zombie when I first drag myself out of bed in the morning.....

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Well, actually.....

 

I always just used it as a presence attack.  no special skill involved, but undead take a vulnerability to presence attacks from "holy men."   Particularly weak ones like skeletons or zombies take x2 effect, most others x1½.  And you have to give them a physical complication that mindless automatons are affected by presence attacks.

Vulnerability to Presence Attacks won't cause them to be destroyed by Presence Attacks. To create a complication that destroys undead subjected to Presence Attacks, you have to use the other, similar complication; Susceptibility. However per RAW, its damage option doesn't go high enough to actually destroy most undead instantly unless the GM hand-waves it to go higher using the table as a guide to ascertain its value. For example:

 

Susceptibility To Turn Undead (Holy Presence Attacks Exceeding PRE + 40): (Uncommon, Within 8m, Instant, Xd6 Normal Damage). Complication Value:  (X x5) points

*Where X equals twice the BODY of the Undead creature. For example, a Skeleton with 10 BODY would suffer a 20d6 of Standard Effect Normal Damage (20 BODY, 60 STUN).

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Vulnerability to Presence Attacks won't cause them to be destroyed by Presence Attacks.

 

Never said it would. I was responding to this:

 

 

"Turn Undead" would either be Mind Control, Only To Force Undead To Flee, or the more typical Added Presence, Only To Force Undead To Flee. Either way the existence of such a power as a campaign element would require every undead it could affect be built as a Character (with appropriate the Life Support and Automaton Powers) instead of as an Automaton. I might Link Turn Undead to Channel Positive Energy, and further Limit Turn Undead to only affect Undead damaged by Channel Positive Energy.

 

I may have misunderstood, but it seems to me as if you were saying that the only way undead can be subject to Mental Powers or to PRE attacks is if they are not Automatons. I was pointing out that they can be Automatons and still be subject to such things.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Actually destroying an undead with PRE is a palindromedary of another color.

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I'm not a fan of the talent as it's written up in the book either.

 

I prefer making it an AoE energy blast, only effecting undead. The holy person can then make a normal Presence attack with a bonus for the violent action and what not, if they want. Just as any character can.

 

From the undead side of things the automaton skellies and zombies should be built with a physical limitation: affected by PRE attacks from divine sources. And most undead (certainly the lesser varieties) should have a vulnerability to the same.

 

Hmmm. I just realised this is pretty much what Christopher Taylor said above.

 

In world building terms this vulnerability  might imply that the undead are opposed to the gods, ALL the gods. That they are abominations against the natural order. And that works for me. I prefer the idea that undead are souls trapped inside their own rotting corpses by evil magic to that of some natural force (ie: negative energy) animating them.

 

Hmmm (again.) If I go this route then maybe the undeads should have a susceptibility to dispel magic?

 

Okay, I'm over-complicating it. Time to go.

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I may have misunderstood, but it seems to me as if you were saying that the only way undead can be subject to Mental Powers or to PRE attacks is if they are not Automatons. I was pointing out that they can be Automatons and still be subject to such things.

According to the rules as written, Automatons are not subject to mental powers or presence attacks, period. Anything which is subject to such powers isn't an Automaton and shouldn't be built using the rules for them. You can house rule (or make a campaign rule of a published work) that a Complication exists which makes Automatons subject to such effects, but none inherently exists in the rules. Which is just yet another part of my problem with Turn Undead, its a giant pile of poorly written hand-wavium; presented as if it were actually a legitimate and balanced rule.

 

Okay, I'm over-complicating it. Time to go.

Stop that! Over-complicating the rules is my job! Just kidding...

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You can house rule (or make a campaign rule of a published work) that a Complication exists which makes Automatons subject to such effects, but none inherently exists in the rules.

 

 

Its implied by undead in the official bestiary having a physical complication "affected by necromantic mind powers."  Why?  So you can use mind control on mindless undead.  Kind of an obvious device, used in many games and source material.  Not hard to extrapolate to presence attacks from that.

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According to the rules as written, Automatons are not subject to mental powers or presence attacks, period. Anything which is subject to such powers isn't an Automaton and shouldn't be built using the rules for them. You can house rule (or make a campaign rule of a published work) that a Complication exists which makes Automatons subject to such effects, but none inherently exists in the rules. Which is just yet another part of my problem with Turn Undead, its a giant pile of poorly written hand-wavium; presented as if it were actually a legitimate and balanced rule.

 

 

There's nothing in Rules as Written that says my character takes damage from kryptonite or extra damage from silver, but if I'm building Superman or a werewolf I can give them a Complication and they do.

 

Your argument invalidates the existence of Complications in general. If Complications don't change the rules for the characters they apply to, they effectively don't exist.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary concedes that might be a way to unComplicate things....

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Its implied by undead in the official bestiary having a physical complication "affected by necromantic mind powers."  Why?  So you can use mind control on mindless undead.  Kind of an obvious device, used in many games and source material.  Not hard to extrapolate to presence attacks from that.

The fact that official sources can do it wrong doesn't make it any less wrong, just officially accepted wrongness. I disagree with Steve Long on any number of subjects. Regardless, in every edition I own, the example Automaton is a Zombie, and it always pisses me off. If undead can be affected by Mental Powers of any special effect, they aren't actually mindless, and shouldn't be Automatons. They should be built as Characters the Machine-Level Intelligence, and, if appropriate to the edition, they should be Undead-Class Minds.

 

There's nothing in Rules as Written that says my character takes damage from kryptonite or extra damage from silver, but if I'm building Superman or a werewolf I can give them a Complication and they do.

 

Your argument invalidates the existence of Complications in general. If Complications don't change the rules for the characters they apply to, they effectively don't exist.

No, my argument does not invalidate the existence of "Complications in general". It argues against the existence and use of a single Complication which gives Automatons free complication points for being treated like characters in the most important way possible. The automaton sheet does exactly four things differently than the character sheet: First, it makes them Immune the Mental Powers and Presence Attacks. Second, it makes EGO, OMCV, and DMCV Dormant. Third, it denies them Everyman skills. Forth, it gives them a number of Programs equal to their INT, and prevents it from acting outside of its programs (i.e. with free will).

 

Furthermore, the Rules as Written do say that a character takes damage from Kryptonite, if they take Susceptibility to it. Likewise a Werewolf does take extra damage from silver, if they take Vulnerability to it. So likewise, if a given special effect of automaton/character can be destroyed outright by given special effect of Presence Attacks they should be getting the appropriate number of Complication points for it (BODY x 10 in this case). Likewise, if you want a creature which follows orders "mindlessly", give them Machine-Level Intelligence. If you are using 6th edition instead of CC/FHC, give them an "Undead-Class Mind" so that only mental powers targeting their class of minds effects them (or make it a house rule / campaign rule of your CC/FHC campaign that mental powers have to take .

 

Cantriped if you don't want a master vampire one-shotted, then remove any vulnerabilies just keep the phy lim: affected by holy special effect.

The issue isn't with the Master Vampire, it doesn't have any relevant complications to remove (because I built it from scratch), such as Vulnerability or Susceptibility to holy Presence Attacks. The Turn Undead Talent as written will still destroy them regardless of their point value or defenses if the cleric can roll high enough on a presence attack to beat the vampire's PRE by 40; which requires the Cleric spends 37 points (or 52 points in a campaign using NCM) to be able to do so with an average roll. The Talent's existence assumes as a campaign rule that I'm willing to subject my Master Vampire to the drawbacks of a 300-point complication, while giving it 0 points for it... My Master Vampire has 30 BODY, so a Susceptibility built as I defined them above would have to do 60d6 Normal Damage (with no defense) to destroy the master vampire outright, the equivalent of a 300-point Susceptibility Complication.

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The fact that official sources can do it wrong doesn't make it any less wrong, just officially accepted wrongness.

 

 

Except if an official source does it... its not wrong any longer.  Right?  I mean you might not do it that way, and you don't like it, but that doesn't make it wrong.  If its in the official rules, its an official rule, even if you don't care for it.  Its your campaign, do it differently in your games.

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Except if an official source does it... its not wrong any longer.  Right?  I mean you might not do it that way, and you don't like it, but that doesn't make it wrong.  If its in the official rules, its an official rule, even if you don't care for it.  Its your campaign, do it differently in your games.

Not necessarily. Game designer's make mistakes all the time (they are still only human), putting it to print does not automatically make it correct. Putting it to print on three separate occasions still doesn't automatically make it correct: 6th Edition, CC, & FHC all use the Zombie as their example automaton, and they all possess the contested Complication that gives zombies an effective EGO, and I assume DMCV for the purpose of necromantic mental powers. 

I bought the Widening Gyre recently, because I love steampunk. However I was disappointed to find it's game elements were rife with errors. For example, there is a necromancer whose Summon power is too small to summon his example undead (TWG 13 & 15), and a werewolf soldier whose Multiform power is too small to turn into the werewolf form described for them (TWG 26-27). Those mistaken examples don't change the rules for Summon and Multiform, and nowhere that I have found does the text cite that these powers are an exception to those rules, they are simply wrong.

 

As vehemently as I argue, every view expressed above is simply my opinion; normally this is an assumed fact when you write anything, but I felt the need to express it explicitly herein. I don't use those Zombies from CC/FHC because I think they are written incorrectly, but if I did, I would run them as written regardless of my opinion. I accept that I have very different design standards than my peers, and as a result I expect to write everything myself from scratch.

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Ok I see now what the problem is, my.mistake. Then just give Master Vampire +20 PRE only vs Holy Attacks. You do.mention a.legit concern.for any GM for any game, how to balance a foe to be tough but not invincible. Ime that is.a balancing act no.matter the game or mechanic.

 

And no matrer how you right up the Turn Undead power, I believe its one off those powers where you write it as close as possible then say this is how it works.

 

And.to be fair.as all things Hero. PRE attack method is a "official"'as a way to do it. But no

 

Edit : Let me finish this thought. But no there are usually several.legal ways to build a power. The most correct is the one the GM sees fit to use.

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If I were to allow Turn Undead as written into a campaign. It would be with the stipulation that Undead receive the appropriate Susceptibility Complication (valued at BODY x 10 points). Using those points I would give Cosmically-Powerful Undead such as my Master Vampire 75% Damage Reduction (Holy). Very Powerful Undead would get 50%, Powerful Undead would get 25%, and Standard Undead (your typical zombies and skeletons) would have none at all.

 

Given that you would need something like 72 dice of Presence Attack to actually destroy a Vampire with 30 PRE and 75% DR, the complication probably shouldn't be worth any points anymore (as per the core principle that Complications which don't complicate their life aren't worth any points, regardless of what the rest of the rules say). NPC Complications are largely irrelevant anyway, we give them however many character and complication points we want; but having it on the sheet would make me feel better about the whole thing.

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IF all undead could be thought of as a type of 'summoned' being, Then the 'Holy' Presence attack could be thought of as a form of Dispel. Then any 'Holy' person could attempt to 'Turn/Dispel' undead but more experienced characters could actually learn a ritual/spell based on the Dispel Power that is further boosted by their PRE.

 

Just an idea...

 

HM

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