How To Build A SuperSoaker or Paint Ball Gun?

[massey]

If someone uses something for a one off attack in champions, ie a Hero picks up a rifle and shoots at someone. That is free. If someone wants a weapon that always does damage no matter how rare, they spend the points for it. Special effect is meaningless for this. It's the same if I had a holy priest that made a spell that damages undead (ie D&D 3.x Turn undead) or If someone wants a weapon that does the same thing. You PAY for your attacks.

 

BTW the build I put forward also assumes that the Undead have a Vulnerability to Holy attacks.

 

No.  The vampires got points back for their susceptibility.  Effectively they paid to transform other people's non-attacks into an attack vs them.  If they took susceptibility vs human skin, every person on the planet is not instantly required to spend points to be able to touch them.

[Beast]

I did this for going up against werewolves
it is using Change Eviroment to activate a vulnerability/susceptability

Real silver nail polish:  Change Environment (Varying Combat Effects) (10 Active Points); 2 clips of 4 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 2 Full Phases; -1), OIF (-1/2), No Range (-1/2)

I'm writing an urban fantasy game for a convention. One of the characters is an engineer with a Gadget VPP of various gizmos she's invented to work against different types of creatures. One of the weapons I want her to have is a water pistol filled with holy water for use against against vampires and so forth (ala Lost Boys). Or maybe instead I'll do it with a paint ball gun, with the balls filled with holy water (ala Harry Dresden).

 

Now the fact that it does damage to certain creatures is due to their Susceptibilities. On her end, it's just a plastic gun that squirts water. Or it shoots plastic balls that to most people just sting a little and splatter you with harmless water. Either way, obviously it shouldn't be very expensive. But I don't want to just give it to her for free either, if only because it needs to take up some room in her VPP. (Conceptually, if she carries the holy water gun it's a tradeoff with something else, so mechanically it needs to have some RP value.)

 

So my question is: how do you build & balance something that has no in-game effect most of the time, yet is highly effective against certain creatures? One option would be to build it based on the effect it has against vampires, and then give it a huge ol' Conditional Limitation. That doesn't seem terribly fair to me, tho, since what's causing the damage is the target's Susceptibility, not the attacker's Power. But since it's all in a VPP, the PC isn't actually paying points for the slot anyway, so maybe it's a wash?

 

Either way, it's been a long time since I played paintball or played with a super soaker, so I have no idea regarding range, charges, etc?

 

Thought I'd see what others think. Thanks!

[dsatow]

Seriously I know this is hero, but everyone is way overthinking this.  Its not a weapon, its just water someone blessed.  It should behave only like water unless its hitting the intended target; that's the opposite of an AVAD that does damage to everyone except a specific exception.

The only reason it does anything different to a target is their susceptibility.  If someone has susceptibility to chocolate, a Hershey's bar isn't a weapon, its just a candy bar.  Until it hits them.

Not really.  The OP originally noted that the player wanting to do this was using their power pool to create the water gun.  That's one specific advantage of having a power pool which is to exploit vulnerabilities and weaknesses.  So the exercise is mostly to determine how much of the pool is being spent.

[Tasha]

No.  The vampires got points back for their susceptibility.  Effectively they paid to transform other people's non-attacks into an attack vs them.  If they took susceptibility vs human skin, every person on the planet is not instantly required to spend points to be able to touch them.

Still Holy water is a special material. Again if someone is fighting Vampires and goes into a nearby church and has the Priest(ess) bless some water for an attack. Sure it's free. If the player wants to keep that attack around for use esp if Vampires are something that will come up time and time again. They need to pay for the attack.

[massey]

Still Holy water is a special material. Again if someone is fighting Vampires and goes into a nearby church and has the Priest(ess) bless some water for an attack. Sure it's free. If the player wants to keep that attack around for use esp if Vampires are something that will come up time and time again. They need to pay for the attack.

You know what effect holy water has on me? It gets me wet. It isn't a special material against anyone who didn't take a susceptibility to it.

 

People don't have to pay points for it because vampires got extra points by being susceptible to a harmless material you can get in real life.

[Surrealone]

You know what effect holy water has on me? It gets me wet. It isn't a special material against anyone who didn't take a susceptibility to it.

 

People don't have to pay points for it because vampires got extra points by being susceptible to a harmless material you can get in real life.

They should have to pay some nominal number of points for having it on hand in a delivery mechanism that can be used for an attack that's easily targeted without unbalanced, unaerodynamic penalties ... since holy water is not common and it's not in a canteen or hydration bladder for drinking.  The same super soaker and holy water could be used to put out some fires (paper/wood ... but not grease or electrical) without the risk of missing associated with the unbalanced, unaerodynamic throwing of a hydration bladder onto it, too.

 

​i.e. I think it's worth a few points in the pool.  Not the 13 CP Lucius suggest, but 2-3 seems sane.

 

Now if you want to give it to them for free ... call it canteen or hydration bladder and be done with it ... and assess the appropriate penalties for lobbing/aiming such things when the time comes.  That should cost nothing, IMHO ... but because it's free it has some drawbacks compared to the 2-3pt super soaker VPP approach.

[Christopher R Taylor]

They should have to pay some nominal number of points for having it on hand in a delivery mechanism that can be used for an attack that's easily targeted without unbalanced, unaerodynamic penalties 

 

 

Sure, that's why I think the change environment build I suggested is ideal.  Its a virtually nonexistent short-term but real effect you can build into a power.  Its a nominal cost for a very minimal power that has great effect against certain targets.

[Tasha]

You know what effect holy water has on me? It gets me wet. It isn't a special material against anyone who didn't take a susceptibility to it.

 

People don't have to pay points for it because vampires got extra points by being susceptible to a harmless material you can get in real life.

It's still an attack that someone wants to make without penalties that is always there. Do you give NND's to heroes for no points if the NND only effects a small group? It's an attack, you pay points for it. You pay less points because it's only useful against vampires. BTW would you be taking this stand if the game were urban fantasy where Vampires were very common? Perhaps If I were in a DC Game where we were fighting Kryptonians and I wanted a gun that fired kryptonite rocks you would give me that for free. Because it's just a rock to everyone else.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Do you give NND's to heroes for no points if the NND only effects a small group?

 

 

You're reasoning backward; the vampires etc took a complication to be harmed by a harmless effect.  Its really the opposite of an NND -- instead of being harmful to most people, its harmless to nearly everyone.  Would you require people pay points to open the curtains to harm a vampire with sunlight?  Silver to harm a werewolf?  Do you require people to pay points to buy a holy symbol?

 

Perhaps If I were in a DC Game where we were fighting Kryptonians and I wanted a gun that fired kryptonite rocks you would give me that for free. Because it's just a rock to everyone else.

 

 

Assuming you don't buy into the more recent "they're radioactive and dangerous" then, probably.  Kryptonite is really rare (you wouldn't know it from Superman comics) so that might affect its cost.  

 

And also it depends on the campaign.  If you're in World War V and everyone is a vampire but the PCs and one priest, OK you might charge for holy water.  Maybe a 1 point perk.

 

But making people pay for a harmless material that someone bought a susceptibility to strikes me as very strange.  I'll buy 1-2 points for a ranged delivery system (see CE build above again) but to buy it as a killing attack that only works against people who buy a susceptibility to it?  That's just backward to me.

[Tasha]

I disagree, In supers games you pay for your attacks. In Heroic games it's of course very different.

It's in a VPP so it's not wasted points. It's something that should be charged for. Change Environment doesn't do it IMHO. Again if it's a one off, I am not going to stress about it. If the Player wants this as something they can grab and use quickly at a drop of a hat, it's paid for with points. It's the way the system works. It's an NND blast or RKA that does body. Defense is not being Undead (or a Demon). 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Change Environment doesn't do it IMHO.

 

 

I don't want to be argumentative, I'm just curious: why don't you think it works?  It gives an actual game effect which is what it would do to everyone other than people who bought a susceptibility.

[massey]

I disagree, In supers games you pay for your attacks. In Heroic games it's of course very different.

 

It's in a VPP so it's not wasted points. It's something that should be charged for. Change Environment doesn't do it IMHO. Again if it's a one off, I am not going to stress about it. If the Player wants this as something they can grab and use quickly at a drop of a hat, it's paid for with points. It's the way the system works. It's an NND blast or RKA that does body. Defense is not being Undead (or a Demon). 

 

If you take a susceptibility to something that other people get for free, then you have just given them a free attack that they don't have to spend points on.

 

If I buy all my defenses "not vs someone named Bob", then people named Bob do not have to buy NND Does Body, only vs my character, on their attacks.

[massey]

It's still an attack that someone wants to make without penalties that is always there. Do you give NND's to heroes for no points if the NND only effects a small group? It's an attack, you pay points for it. You pay less points because it's only useful against vampires. BTW would you be taking this stand if the game were urban fantasy where Vampires were very common? Perhaps If I were in a DC Game where we were fighting Kryptonians and I wanted a gun that fired kryptonite rocks you would give me that for free. Because it's just a rock to everyone else.

 

As far as Kryptonite goes, it depends what is on Superman's character sheet.

 

 

"Susceptibility, very common" means that people don't have to pay points for it.  It is a very common substance, particularly in how it is used against Superman.  Everybody seems to have it.

 

"Not when exposed to Kryptonite" as a limitation on all his powers means that people don't have to pay points for it.  Superman got a discount so that other people could use it for free.

 

My current version of Superman didn't take more than a tiny.susceptibility.  His powers stick around just fine.  He does take x1.5 effect and x1.5 stun from Kryptonite attacks.  My current version goes with the assumption that "Kryptonite" is the special effect of powers that other people will take.  You want to drain his powers?  Buy it.  Otherwise I just gave him a 3D6 Stun loss (he has a lot of Stun) and a custom physical disadvantage "loses next phase when exposed to green K for the first time in an encounter".  So you pull out the glowing green rock and he goes "Aarrgghh!!!  Kryptonite!" and he loses about 10 Stun and misses his next action as he winces in pain.  After that, any effect you want, you have to pay for.  He'll still take the 3D6 if he gets too close, but that's it.

 

The way I'd run that is that a normal piece of green K that any thug might find is enough to cause a bit of pain, but that's all you get for free.

 

 

 

 

In the case of Vampire World, it's up to the GM to decide how to build his NPC villains.  If you want to make it so that holy water has to be bought as an attack, that's fine.  But then you don't get to slap huge susceptibilities on your vampires.  Those disadvantages are worth zero points.

[steriaca]

Seriously I know this is hero, but everyone is way overthinking this. Its not a weapon, its just water someone blessed. It should behave only like water unless its hitting the intended target; that's the opposite of an AVAD that does damage to everyone except a specific exception.

The only reason it does anything different to a target is their susceptibility. If someone has susceptibility to chocolate, a Hershey's bar isn't a weapon, its just a candy bar. Until it hits them.

Cosmetic Transformation (Dry Person To Damp Person), AVLD (NND - not having a solid body, being already wet, and whatever other defences the GM choses), charges. I suggest treating it much like Instant Change (meaning you don't need more than 1d6 of this, and should never really need to roll for 'damage').

[bigdamnhero]

I'd like to note that all those AVLD versions probably should have all or nothing as the defense is not point related, if anyone is thinking of using that build.

I was thinking about this, but the damage from Susceptibilities is already NND, right? So even if I made someone pay for the attack, I think they should get the AVLD/NND for free.

 

Not really.  The OP originally noted that the player wanting to do this was using their power pool to create the water gun.  That's one specific advantage of having a power pool which is to exploit vulnerabilities and weaknesses.  So the exercise is mostly to determine how much of the pool is being spent.

Exactly right. And within that context, buying it as an attack power seems to fit the best in terms of balancing point allocation.

 

But I am also interested in the broader question of whether an attacker should have to pay points for a non-damaging "attack" that only works if someone happens to have the right damages Susceptibility, or whether the points are "paid" by the target through their Susceptibility. I get the concept of "you get what you pay for" normally; but making someone pay points for a perfectly mundane substance that normally has no/little in-game effect seems to defeat the point of the target getting points for taking that Complication. Different matter for Vulnerabilities, of course, which only amplify the effect of an existing attack. But we're talking about something that is completely harmless unless the target has that specific Susceptibility. Why should I have to pay points for someone else's Complication?

 

Of course as noted, this is a Heroic game where the characters don't normally pay points for "normal" equipment. And it's in a VPP, so the net cost to the character is zero either way. But it's an interesting question.

[Hyper-Man]

I'm half tempted tempted to write a HERO themed song titled "Would you like to build a squirt-gun?" to the tune of "Would you like to build a snowman?".

 

HM

[Lucius]

It's still an attack that someone wants to make without penalties that is always there. Do you give NND's to heroes for no points if the NND only effects a small group?

No.

 

Unless the small group is really vanishingly small and they will meet the small group only once or twice in a year's steady play. Maybe then.

 

Otherwise, a player can if they wish pay points for an attack that only effects a small group.

 

Now, if they don't pay for such an attack but the members of the small group got points for a Susceptibility and a hero finds and exploits the Susceptibility - then I'm STILL not "giving an NND to the hero for no points." What I'm doing is enforcing the Complication of the small group.

 

If it so happens that someone decides to pay points for an attack that also triggers a target's Susceptibility or Vulnerability, then the unfortunate target will take BOTH the paid-for damage and the extra damage from their Complication. Because that's what Susceptibility and Vulnerability mean.

 

 

Perhaps If I were in a DC Game where we were fighting Kryptonians and I wanted a gun that fired kryptonite rocks you would give me that for free. Because it's just a rock to everyone else.

So in the case you describe, yes, you pay for the gun because getting hit with a forcefully propelled kryptonite rock will likely hurt an ordinary person. When you hit a Kryptonian with it, it may bypass their defenses if the defenses have a "Not vs Kryptonite" Limitation, otherwise that damage will bounce; either way, if they have "Susceptible to Kryptonite" they take damage from the Susceptibility.

 

 

I disagree, In supers games you pay for your attacks. In Heroic games it's of course very different.

 

It's in a VPP so it's not wasted points. It's something that should be charged for. Change Environment doesn't do it IMHO. Again if it's a one off, I am not going to stress about it. If the Player wants this as something they can grab and use quickly at a drop of a hat, it's paid for with points. It's the way the system works. It's an NND blast or RKA that does body. Defense is not being Undead (or a Demon).

Underline for emphasis. The way the system works is, if a character has a Susceptibility to something then they take damage from what they have a Susceptibility to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The way my system works, you get a palindromedary tagline here without having to pay any points for it (unless you're in a game where you had to pay for literacy; then all you're getting here without paying for it as a string of incomprehensible symbols. Come to think of it that's about what you get if you don't have English. But if you're a literate native English speaker, you get a palindromedary tagline here.)You're welcome.

[Grailknight]

Normally, a character doesn't pay Points for materials that trigger Susceptibilities but normally those things are only available when the GM adds them to the scenario or allows them to be available with a small effort. If you want to have those materials on hand at all times you should pay for them. I would consider using points from an equipment pool fine as long as they are allocated before hand. Even Batman doesn't have a perfect load-out every time.

[Doc Democracy]

Well, having read much of the contorted logic here, I am tempted to suggest that the paint ball idea be built as a 1d6 standard effect EB with blessed water as the SFX. Now, that 3 STUN is very unlikely to go through almost anyone's standard defences but it would trigger any vulnerabilities and susceptibilities to blessed water.

 

Does that one make everyone happier?

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok I skipped a few posts. However Tasha and.Massey as to whom pays the points. I always thought (and is tricky part of Hero) is the guarantee of points. The thing abiut Tasha build, is that as long as someone says im undead then the holy water works. it isn't depended on the vampire to take the "proper" disadvantages. However if the gm has the undead all take the proper phy lim, then at most the player has to pay points to access the power.

[massey]

Normally, a character doesn't pay Points for materials that trigger Susceptibilities but normally those things are only available when the GM adds them to the scenario or allows them to be available with a small effort. If you want to have those materials on hand at all times you should pay for them. I would consider using points from an equipment pool fine as long as they are allocated before hand. Even Batman doesn't have a perfect load-out every time.

So I have to pay points if I want to keep Fishman from going back in the water?

[Grailknight]

So I have to pay points if I want to keep Fishman from going back in the water?

 

No, you have to pay points for the means to prevent him.

 

Of course,  if the GM sets up the adventure so that the PC's plan to stop Fishman's escape using tools, the environment, sweat, blood and tears works then its a plot point in problem solving. It doesn't cost points because that how the campaign set it up to happen.

 

Generally, if you use your powers or abilities to stop Fishman, you've already paid the points. You're just applying them to the problem.

 

If this is something that you want to have available all the time but rarely sees use then you pay points. Not many points though, because it's just a slot in your Multipower/VPP. In a heroic game you'd put it in your equipment pool because if you didn't, it's up to the GM to determine it's availability and you may not have as much as you need or want in that case. 

[bigdamnhero]

Normally, a character doesn't pay Points for materials that trigger Susceptibilities but normally those things are only available when the GM adds them to the scenario or allows them to be available with a small effort. If you want to have those materials on hand at all times you should pay for them. I would consider using points from an equipment pool fine as long as they are allocated before hand. Even Batman doesn't have a perfect load-out every time.

Even for something as common as water? I mean, I recognize in this case we're talking about holy water which is a less common substance; but that should be reflected in the cost of the Susceptibility. Take the "holy" out of the equation: if I have an NPC who's Susceptible to plain-old water, are you really going to make characters pay points for a squirt gun?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its worth some points if its something that comes up every so often or more commonly in a campaign.  If you fight undead irregularly, then having holy water around and a means of delivering it, that's worth a couple points.  1 or 2.  But nobody has to build a big AVAD killing attack to do what a susceptibility does.

[Grailknight]

Even for something as common as water? I mean, I recognize in this case we're talking about holy water which is a less common substance; but that should be reflected in the cost of the Susceptibility. Take the "holy" out of the equation: if I have an NPC who's Susceptible to plain-old water, are you really going to make characters pay points for a squirt gun?

 

In that scenario, figuring out the Susceptibility would probably be the focus of the adventure(e.g., Signs, The Wizard of Oz).  You'll have plenty at the climax of the scenario so you can conclude the story

 

But water is a good if extreme example here.  How often are you carrying a bottle of water on your person?  Do you keep one in the bedroom or living room?  Smart monsters cut the power all the time, turning off the water would be just as easy and a lot less noticeable. If you're that paranoid(sometimes warranted for a PC), you'll put it in your equipment pool so that you can control the availability. Otherwise you're at the mercy of the GM's environment.