Halving healing per RAW?

[Surrealone]

Wolverine's realistically no more expensive than Professor X to build (especially when you add in the mansion, the plane, Cerebro, etc. that Professor X has) using stats and a pure-regen/healing basis ... until you consider the halving rule.  That's what makes him as well as other healing-based builds absurdly expensive in Hero.  It is, I think, also why most GMs ignore the halving rule for Healing?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Pretty sure regen doesn't take halving, since its not an adjustment power (its "special" in the rules, so perhaps adjustment but I would rule not).  I would build part of Wolverine's regen as defenses; he heals so fast the wounds just don't bother him other than dramatic pauses to show them heal up.  

 

But as for a healer character -- uncommon in Hero system but not unknown -- yeah the halving makes the defense (healing) much more expensive than the damage (attacks) which reverses the usual Hero meta rule.  

 

On the other hand, if Healer Bob takes the campaign maximum active points for their healer, that's a 6d6 heal Body which is pretty hefty even with halving.  So its not exactly like they're crippled.  Move that to other stats like END and you can heal up to 90 END at a shot.  Even if you buy the Decreased Re-use Duration down to 1 phase (definite stop sign here, +1 3/4 advantage) its still 4d6, so an average heal of 7 Body, 14 stun, or 35 END.  That's enough to put someone back on their feet immediately.

 

So its not as awful as it sounds when you compare it to attacks.  And healing almost always lags behind damage in any game setting for a reason: you can heal someone over and over, and the attack has to actually hit and has defenses to go through.  So is it as bad as it seems?

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

As for me making a comment earlier, I just missed the errata, but I have, for my entire time in Hero, halved Healing for Defenses because the 6E book didn't make sense in that regard (Healing is an adjustment power for a reason)

 

Healing seems rather reasonably priced as is.

 

Here is my opinion:

 

Healing is a form of Aid built as

 

Healing: Aid 1d6, Points Do Not Fade (+4) 1/2 END (+1/4) (26 APs) Can Only Be Used Once Per Day (-1) Only To Return To Start Values (-1/2) 10 RPs

 

This seems about right for the cost of Healing (Of course the 10 RPs is used as the base cost for 1d6)

 

If you think about it Healing should indeed be halved, because the power itself is built off of Aid, which we generally accept as halved for Defense.

[Lucius]

 

 

 

 

P.S. I know some people would build Wolverine with Resistant Protection and call it a regenerative special effect.  However, that fails to mechanically represent what happens to Wolverine, as he takes the BODY and STUN damage and then regenerates.  Modeling him properly so that mechanics and special effects are all properly aligned, Regeneration seems the best/right power for the job ... rather than handwaving Resistant Protection with a regenerative special effect just because RAW encourages buying Resistant Protection rather than Healing (a la the Regeneration varietal) with its cost structure.  Wolverine built using actual Healing/Regeneration will be prohibitively expensive to build compared to his counterpart X-Men because of the halving rule.  Is this good design?  (i.e. Is a need to handwave one power to behave like another in terms of SFX ... just because RAW makes the one you really ought to be using prohibitively expensive ... a sign of good design ... or a sign of a problem?)

(Just ask Wolverine...)

Okay, I will.

 

Hey, Wolverine. Is it true you've been known to be hit with massively damaging attacks without it even slowing you down?

 

Yeah.

And if you're coming for someone and they're, say, hosing you down with a machine gun, the bullets pass through you and there's lots of blood but you don't even blink and just keep coming so it's effectively as if they were bouncing bullets off a tank coming their way, except you're faster and more dangerous than a tank?

 

Yeah, so?

So, wouldn't it be fair to say you're at least as tough as a tank?

 

Fair to who? Yeah, yeah, I'm the best in the world at what a tank does, that what you wanna hear?

I'm just saying it sounds like it works mechanically like high defenses, maybe Damage Negation or Damage Reduction, and definitely some Resistant Defense.

 

Whatever you say, fanboy. Now get out of here or you'll find out why we call it a Danger Room.

Uh, this isn't the Danger Room.

 

It's gonna be.

Oh. Thank you sir, I'll just go find a less dangerous room to be in now.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And take that goofy looking two headed camel thing with you.

[Cantriped]

Healing is a form of Aid built as

No, Healing is most definitely not a form of Aid; it might have been in 4th edition, but we aren't discussing 4th edition mechanics.

Healing is no more a form of Aid than Regeneration is a form of Healing (Regeneration as a form of Healing was a 5th edition mechanic if I recall correctly). Any argument based on those premises is flawed from the start.

Further, although you can still build Aid, Delayed Fade (1 Century; +4); Only To Starting Values (-1/2). The points you increased the characteristic by are going to fade eventually (even if it takes a century), meanwhile the points you restore with Healing never will, because that is a principle difference between the two Powers and why they were separated in the first place.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Further, although you can still build Aid, Delayed Fade (1 Century; +4); Only To Starting Values (-1/2). The points you increased the characteristic by are going to fade eventually (even if it takes a century), meanwhile the points you restore with Healing never will, because that is a principle difference between the two Powers and why they were separated in the first place.

A pesky house rule if I may say. We have decided in my Gaming Group that 1 century will probably never happen in our games (plus by that time, the natural healing process will take over an heal the character). Thanks for pointing that out though!

[dmjalund]

My point of view is that healing isn't targeting the stat, it is targeting the attacks that did the damage, which are by default, not defensive

[Ndreare]

My point of view is that healing isn't targeting the stat, it is targeting the attacks that did the damage, which are by default, not defensive

What would be the argument would be for this?

[Surrealone]

(Regeneration as a form of Healing was a 5th edition mechanic if I recall correctly).

Keep in mind that the halving rule for Adjustment Powers is a 5th and 6th edition mechanic ... hence why Regeneration as a form of (I.e. build based on) Healing has relevance here in this thread -- which is about said halving rule and Healing, irrespective of 5e® or 6e.    (i.e. Regeneration might very well be a form of Healing for some people reading this thread.  It is, in fact, relevant to one of the 5er games in which I'm currently playing, which is why I made sure I mentioned it.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I actually don't think healing can be compared to any other mechanic in the game, its like blast.  its not based on anything else.  It just is.  And based on my analysis the halving works despite feeling "wrong" at a gut level, since the cost of the "defensive" stats were halved as well.

[dsatow]

Personally, the errata I believe corrects one issue and screws up another.  Simplified healing should heal a max 6 points of stun.  I believe the errata penalizes stun twice since stun costs 2 stun per 1 cp.  This is due to the "defensive characteristics" for the most part were halved from the original game as noted by previous posters.  Its an easy enough mistake and I pointed it out to Steve in a private message but he seems to have the flu and said he'd look at it later.

[Cantriped]

I actually don't think healing can be compared to any other mechanic in the game, its like blast.  its not based on anything else.  It just is.  And based on my analysis the halving works despite feeling "wrong" at a gut level, since the cost of the "defensive" stats were halved as well.

The only reason I keep making reference to "reverse Normal Damage" in regard to Healing is because that is literally how Simplified Healing has been described by the rules (FHC 83). Otherwise I agree that Healing is definitely its own unique game element, I don't even think it should be classified as an Adjustment Power, It doesn't function like any of the other Adjustment Powers anyway. Healing should instead be a Special Power like regeneration, and any rules it inherits from Adjustment Powers should be called out specifically in its description.

 

I think the rule feels wrong on a gut level because the rule is wrong as a design conceit. Ignoring the game-balance implications of the rule for the moment:

I understand the design conceit of the rule in regard to Aid, Absorption, and Drain, which appear to be intended to most commonly apply to Game Elements such as Strength or Blast that come in large packages. And we've already discussed above the effects that applying these powers to excessively cheap "defensive attributes" has on game balance. However, the idea of halving the Effect Rolls of Healing when it is applied to the very Game Elements which it appears to be intended to most commonly apply to is simply bad game design. If they had wanted us to end up paying twice as much for certain kinds of Healing, they could have simply raised its base cost to 20 points per die (and offered a -1 limitation for Healing Blast and similar game elements), or required a mandatory +1 advantage be taken by Healing applied to defensive characteristics (Hand To Hand Attacks can have mandatory modifiers, why not Healing).

[Christopher R Taylor]

 I don't even think it should be classified as an Adjustment Power, It doesn't function like any of the other Adjustment Powers anyway. Healing should instead be a Special Power like regeneration, and any rules it inherits from Adjustment Powers should be called out specifically in its description.

 

 

I agree with this, its definitely unique.  The problem is, calling it a "special" power excludes it from certain structures in the game, so it would need a different designation.

 

However, the idea of halving the Effect Rolls of Healing when it is applied to the very Game Elements which it appears to be intended to most commonly apply to is simply bad game design.

 

I agree as well, but not with the impact on healing, but rather the impact on stats.  This entire halving thing in 6th edition is an artifact of stats suddenly becoming cheaper.  In 5th edition, it was not applied to body and stun or END as I understand it, but only defenses (if it did apply to stats, then I wasn't aware of it and it was inexcusably poor design simply done to weaken healing).  Since Body and STN suddenly cost half as much, Healing those stats became twice as powerful without a change in cost.  Healing END is even more powerful.

[Chris Goodwin]

As I mentioned in the other thread, there was about a 50/50 chance my thought on it was going to agree with Steve's, when I asked the question, and regardless of what his answer was, that wasn't going to change how I run it.  Turns out, my thought doesn't agree with Steve's, and like I said, that won't change how I run it, which is:  when it's Simplified Healing, you don't halve it, because if you have to divide by two then it's not exactly simplified.    For any other Healing, it is halved for the defensive abilities; you could in theory buy BODY Healing, or STUN Healing, or END Healing, or PD/ED Healing, or Healing against more than one of them.  In other words, if you're healing Character Points worth of something, and it's a defensive ability, then you halve it, but if you're healing BODY and STUN, then you just read what's on the dice as if it were Normal Damage.

 

Also, as I pointed out in the other thread, halving of Adjustment Powers against defensive abilities dates back to the 2nd-3rd edition era, back when they were called Power Drain, Power Transfer, Power Destruction, Neutralization, etc.  (Champions III, p. 23).  It didn't apply to Healing, because in that same book, when Healing was presented, it was only Simplified Healing.  

[Surrealone]

 It didn't apply to Healing, because in that same book, when Healing was presented, it was only Simplified Healing.  

Not only that, but BODY and STUN had not been labeled/lumped in with PD, ED, and Defense Powers (akin to Armor, Force Field, aka Resistant Protection in 6e) in 5er and earlier; both were simply Characteristics.  (IIRC and per the quotes in this thread's first post, it wasn't until 6e that BODY and STUN were 'clarified' to be in the same boat with PD, ED, and Defense Powers.)

 

I don't agree with that categorization/classification from 6e -- because BODY and STUN are what's impacted AFTER defenses (such as PD, ED, and other defenses) ... and aren't (very technically) defenses, themselves (when working the game's mechanics).  i.e. I take issue with BODY and STUN being lumped in with defenses...

[Cantriped]

I can see the argument for BODY as a defense (but not STUN) only in that your BODY score determines the threshold of effect for Transforms (like Ego does for Mind Control).

[Christopher R Taylor]

And Endurance doesn't make any sense as a defense at any level or argument save one: it's too cheap to allow adjustment powers to be used straight up on.

[Surrealone]

I can see the argument for BODY as a defense (but not STUN) only in that your BODY score determines the threshold of effect for Transforms (like Ego does for Mind Control).

While BODY determines the threshold of effect for Transforms, it's still not a defense (per se) against them.

 

The usual/typical defense against Transforms is Power Defense ... much like the usual/typical defense against Mind Control is Mental Defense.

[jdounis]

I personally find the after-errata cost of healing somewhat high but withing the cost/effectiveness range of other RPG systems.in Hero you can typically use your healing powers to every party member to the maximum effect outside combat with only cost in END(raw power without expendable focus etc.), something that is unheard in systems like d&d in which you have a  limited potency for healing, costing you spells slots and without guarantees for the healing effect even outside combat(unless using metamagic feats, or high level spells like Heal). Also for the same spell level slot a "healer"(typically a cleric/druid) can heal much less hp that a damaging spell of the same spell level slot can do.( 5th level wizard with fireball 5d10 damage, 5th level cleric cure serious wounds 3d8+5). That is costly healing is something accepted in RPGs in my opinion.

[Cantriped]

While that is generally true amongst table-top RPGs, the case is often reversed in MMO RPGs, where the party Healer may be expected to be able to keep four of five other adventurers "topped-off" at all times. Providing a steady stream of healing that out-paces the damage being dealt by both Mobs and the Boss, because if they don't they entire party is mathematically guaranteed to die in 10 seconds or less.

Both systems can be acceptable because it is actually really hard to imbalance the game with Healing. Healing, no matter how powerful, doesn't end combat encounters except in the rarest of circumstances (which can usually be blamed on poor encounter design); you simply cannot Heal your enemies into submission. Literally the worst case scenario is that you have to adjust your encounter design to accommodate the fact that the party doesn't stay injured between battles.

Meanwhile, a similar number of Active Points instead spent on Drain SPD, Area Of Effect, Constant, Delayed Return Rate (1 Minute), Penetrating, Personal Immunity, Zero END will destroy just about any encounter, and there isn't much the GM can do about it without being really cheesy in return (like giving enemies one or more points of Inherent Speed).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Personally, I don't mind healing being fairly easy and effective.  I want the PCs to win, I don't like it when they get beat to paste and killed.  Healing just lets the characters keep going when they would otherwise have to rest, because if they all die, the adventure is simply done.

[jdounis]

While that is generally true amongst table-top RPGs, the case is often reversed in MMO RPGs, where the party Healer may be expected to be able to keep four of five other adventurers "topped-off" at all times. Providing a steady stream of healing that out-paces the damage being dealt by both Mobs and the Boss, because if they don't they entire party is mathematically guaranteed to die in 10 seconds or less.

Both systems can be acceptable because it is actually really hard to imbalance the game with Healing. Healing, no matter how powerful, doesn't end combat encounters except in the rarest of circumstances (which can usually be blamed on poor encounter design); you simply cannot Heal your enemies into submission. Literally the worst case scenario is that you have to adjust your encounter design to accommodate the fact that the party doesn't stay injured between battles.

Meanwhile, a similar number of Active Points instead spent on Drain SPD, Area Of Effect, Constant, Delayed Return Rate (1 Minute), Penetrating, Personal Immunity, Zero END will destroy just about any encounter, and there isn't much the GM can do about it without being really cheesy in return (like giving enemies one or more points of Inherent Speed).

 

 

Personally, I don't mind healing being fairly easy and effective.  I want the PCs to win, I don't like it when they get beat to paste and killed.  Healing just lets the characters keep going when they would otherwise have to rest, because if they all die, the adventure is simply done.

 

              I dont mind about healing being effective either, i think if something is available in both players and their enemies in the same amount/efficiency there is not a problem.However as i mentioned before this "imbalance" between damage output and healing has worked for years in mainstream table top rpg like ad&d, d&d, WoD,Savage Worlds etc. without complaints or ill effects AFAIK. Also in HERO you get recoveries inside battle at least for STUN damage, so you are not completely at the mercy of fate like in other RPG's where you have to spend resources to heal every type of damage or difficult skill rolls within time limits(Savage Worlds for example).

[Christopher R Taylor]

However as i mentioned before this "imbalance" between damage output and healing has worked for years in mainstream table top rpg like ad&d, d&d, WoD,Savage Worlds etc. without complaints or ill effects AFAIK. Also in HERO you get recoveries inside battle at least for STUN damage, so you are not completely at the mercy of fate like in other RPG's where you have to spend resources to heal every type of damage or difficult skill rolls within time limits(Savage Worlds for example).

 

And as others have noted, Hero healing is very limited by the re-use duration rule, so its not as open ended as it seems.  Almost always in every game healing lags behind damage per equivalent "level."  That's on purpose to control its efficiency and the impact on the game.  In Hero its not as bad but it feels odd because you're getting half effect on the very abilities that Healing seems designed to take effect on.  And that feeling -- quite understandable in my opinion -- is what drives this entire discussion.

 

In the end, though, if you run the numbers, you get pretty good punch for your points, and in Hero that's what it all comes down to.

[jdounis]

And as others have noted, Hero healing is very limited by the re-use duration rule, so its not as open ended as it seems.  Almost always in every game healing lags behind damage per equivalent "level."  That's on purpose to control its efficiency and the impact on the game.  In Hero its not as bad but it feels odd because you're getting half effect on the very abilities that Healing seems designed to take effect on.  And that feeling -- quite understandable in my opinion -- is what drives this entire discussion.

 

In the end, though, if you run the numbers, you get pretty good punch for your points, and in Hero that's what it all comes down to.

 

   I completely agree, a mechanic like stated in other posts of reverse normal damage for Simplified Healing at a X cost per d6 or a mandatory advantage for defense powers or characteristics would be better.

[Surrealone]

In the end, though, if you run the numbers, you get pretty good punch for your points, and in Hero that's what it all comes down to.

Which numbers?

• 10CP per 1d6 Simplified Healing ... then divided by 2 for the halving rule?  (i.e. Effective 20CP per effective 1d6 Simplified Healing??

OR

• 10CP per 1d6 Simplified Healing ... with no application of the havling rule (i.e. House-ruled to ignore the halving rule)??

 

Your post wasn't clear on which numbers you mean, so I am asking for clarification.