Arcanepunk: Help with Setting Building

[Manic Typist]

So, after a very long hiatus, it looks like I might be running a game again.

 

Of course the potential players expressed interest in the one campaign idea that is least developed- a high fantasy/steampunk mashup that I've discovered could accurately be called arcanepunk.

 

What I'm envisioning is a Cold War-esque scenario in which two large nations with disparate worldviews are competing for influence among smaller nations in an attempt to tip the scales of influence in their own favor.

 

The two superpowers are at opposite ends of the high fantasy/steampunk spectrum that is arcanepunk.

 

One (I'm calling it Techtopia until a real name emerges) has developed to an early industrial level of tech- trains, steam vessels, American Civil War firearms (a mixture of muskets, rifles, repeating weapons, cannons, etc.) - plus some airships. It has factories that build interchangeable parts, a parliamentary government that is only accessible to property owners (including intangible forms of property via banking, inventions, etc- you have to "buy in" to the system) that further disenfranchies the majority of citizens (many of whom have fled to cities for work in poor conditions- the evils of early industrialization). The secrets of technology and industry are jealously guarded - between guilds and government, engineers, technicians, and other skilled workers are closely monitored and not allowed to leave the country for fear of their arch-rivals catching up to them and neutralizing their technological advantage.

 

That rival would be Magistan (again, a placeholder name). They are a feudal society dominated by magic- the noble families rose to power via carefully cultivating magical aptitude into their bloodlines via strategic marriages and forced acquisitions. They view magic as a gift from the gods, and advanced technology that imitates magic as man's usurpation of the divine prerogatives - plus wizards jealously guard their secrets, which makes for poor scientific advancement. Their population is roughly the same but they require more manual labor in the fields - so battle wizards supporting magically enchanted troops are how they hold out against firearms. A single wizard is capable of inflicting horrendous casualties if he or she is prepared, but there are relatively few such people (perhaps 1 in 1000 people have the gift of magic at all, and fewer still sufficient power to be useful on the battlefield itself instead of supporting the war effort in other ways).

 

Stuck between them is a nation kind of like Switzerland that wants to remain neutral, and has successfully found a way to combine magic and technology far in advance of the others - basically it has used magic to jumpstart technology so that it doesn't need to burn coal at levels that pollute its cities, its airships can fly faster and higher due to the combo of resource efficient industry and reality cheating magic, etc. I imagine the PCs as being based out of this nation, helping to navigate the escalating tensions between shifting coalitions of power (worker's movements, anti-royalist conspiracies, religious schisms, etc.).

Given this brief thumbnail sketch, what are your thoughts on how these nations might compete, what strategies and counterstrategies might they develop, what aspects do you think I need to consider without going off the deep end, etc.?

 

[Cantriped]

What you are describing is more often called Dungeon Punk, or Gaslamp Fantasy depending on what other tropes you inject into it. This is my first time seeing the term "Arcanepunk".

 

Regarding the content of the world design itself, I like the basic premise.

Aspects I think you need to consider:

How does sorcery interact with technology? In some worlds sorcery is antithetical to technology, trains break down when a sorcerer steps on board; and a sorcerer may not be able to cast spells around the technological aura of a modern smart phone. In other (more common/popular) worlds enchantment and engineering can be fused into "magitek" devices far more efficient than either enchantment or engineering would be individually; for example, steam-engines which harness the power of bound fire-elementals instead of coal furnaces.

 

Regarding strategies and counter-strategies:

Saboteurs. In a world where a few magicians really hate their technological business rivals, it isn't unreasonable to assume some unpopular scion gets sent to sabotage a factory or laboratory. Magical sabatoge would be extremely difficult to detect or predict technologically. Of course the natural countermeasure would be the development of equipment which detects magical residue (and perhaps magic users themselves).

Similarly, Magicians would frequently be the target of assassination attempts. If the region only has one mage-king to support its army, taking them out would naturally give your forces a huge advantage. The natural countermeasures for this would be spells that detect poisons, and spells the disguise your servants as yourself (allowing them to take bullets intended for your royal skull).

In order to compete with more technologically advanced weapons, magicians likely resort to enchantments to increase the lethality of their armies. For example, arrows that gain velocity and mass as they fly to penetrate heavy armor, or explode like mortars to inflict multiple casualties.

 

Regarding sources of competition:

Given that they are separated by a bordering neutral country, and have completely different philosophies and methodologies... there really isn't much reason from them to actually go to war with one another. The main reasons I can think of for them to be at odds would be mismatched distribution of resources. For example, perhaps Techtopia has lots of fertile river valleys, but not enough iron and copper mines. Meanwhile, Magistan has abundant mineral resources, but not enough arable farmland to support their general populations. A less economically crippling reason to fight is simple racism. Perhaps Techtopians think the Magistani are devil-worshiping blue-bloods, while the Magistani think the Techtopians are heretic idolaters for putting their faith in machines instead of magicians.

[Manic Typist]

Edit: Ugh, I'm used to the old boards where I could snip quotes to respond neatly. That method no longer seems to work here. Can someone please explain how I can break up a quote? I'm used to "quote||/quote" with brackets.

 

How does sorcery interact with technology?

 

Definitely "magitek"- the neutral nation that I describe above (let's call it Balancelandia manages to maintain its independence through a combination of economic and military might that lets it punch above its weight class through the combo of magic and technology. They use this to help support other smaller, weaker states that are also trying to maintain their independence. Machinations between the two empires abound in their efforts to destabilize the status quo in their own favor.

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding strategies and counter-strategies:

 

 

 

All good points (some I had considered, some I had not), and I love the visual of arrows that become mortar rounds. Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding sources of competition:

Given that they are separated by a bordering neutral country, and have completely different philosophies and methodologies... there really isn't much reason from them to actually go to war with one another. The main reasons I can think of...

 

 

 

Couple of thoughts:

1) In my mind, the differing ideologies are a primary motivator for conflict, much as we saw with the Soviet Union and United States. Somewhat reasonably, mostly unreasonably, each views the others as an existential threat to their way of lives and values - divine right of kings versus a strong merchant class based democracy, religious differences (I'm thinking that Techtopia used to be part of a much larger, historical Magistan empire, but splintered off when the home empire went through a period of civil war and a cult arose that favored the use of scientific reasoning that can be used by everyone over deference to magic which is controlled by a select few). Your racism suggestion above fits perfectly with this, and I'm definitely stealing it.

2) Also, nationalism/people find stupid reasons to fight.

3) The resource aspect I something I've been struggling with, as it really should be a primary motivator. NATO and USSR largely had the same resources between them to my knowledge, so they competed for political and ideological reasons. However, I want there to be more than that here because NATO and USSR military forces and cities looked very similar- they were fundamentally using the same technology on each side, with different aesthetics/levels of access for citizenry. This is not the case here.

 

I think that Techtopia has better access to certain minerals that are useful to making technologies such as steel, for instance, whereas Magistan has much more arable land (that it has to devote massive manual labor to versus Techtopia's smaller but more efficient farming environment that can barely keep up with its population (access to decent food in early industrial cities was a major sore point, historically). I definitely like the idea that Magistan has more mineral resources (that it doesn't know how to use), and perhaps I'll also flip the food situation- I feel that one side should have the strategic advantage of a larger population for conflict (the USSR's military was massive), whereas the other should have the advantage of superior access to quality fighting forces to offset that. So I'm thinking that while Magistan's shock troops are terrifying, ensorcelled warriors supported by magicians and levy troops, they are incredibly resource intensive and offset by the easier to train and equip forces of Techtopia.

 

 

Way, way, WAAAY back behind the curtains, there are two other small (but powerful) factions I'm considering adding. Essentially there are hidden powers that are helping to drive the conflict from behind the scenes - on the magical side are the Faerie, whose world is actually dependent upon ambiguity and metaphor and all the classic tropes of the "fay." The act of measuring, defining, and being precise about the natural world actually decrease the size of the Faeries' home realm because it is antithetical to what allows them to exist. On the other side are a small group of intelligent automata (where they came from I'm not sure) who are terrified of the sheer irrationality and lack of predictability of magic. They are made of circuits and servos and view everything through logical lenses and cost-benefit calculations- a process which is completely upended when magic can make 2+2=5. I don't intend for the PCs to see any of this for a long time, but perhaps at the end of the first "season" they might encounter something fantastical (even for this setting!) and wonder just what the hell they stumbled into.

[Ndreare]

Something to consider.

 

If the central nation (Balancelandia) has merged the two sciences into a superior technology, then you have to ask is it reasonable at all that the other two nations would not steal that?

 

Human nature says we want security. If our neighbors have something superior we work very hard to get the same thing. This was a big reason why the Cold War lead to so many advances.

 

Also if Balancelandia's technology is as superior as you describe why would they not be considered the enemy of both the other states as Balancelandia would be expanding. Superior technology, means higher birth survival rates and longer life spans, means greater growing population, means more land needed, means neighbors become threatened.

 

 

PS: I really love the types of settings, and have run them before. Normally with the players crack teams trying to recover stolen technologies before it is to late or broker peace while constantly watching for spies.

[Lucius]

 

Your magical, fae aligned nation can be named The Kingdome of Obera, after Oberon, a name given to the king of Faerie. I see them as to the East.

 

Your technological, robot-inspired nation can be named The Ultrian Republic, after Ultron, a famous artificially intelligent robot you may be familiar with. I see them as to the West.

 

In the middle of the continent is Huma, the original homeland of Humans - a fact which may have become lost and forgotten, and may or may not become a relevant plot point eventually.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Also favoring a philosophy of balance is the desert nation of Palindromedaria. Or is it a dessert nation? That would be sweet.

[Lucius]

Edit: Ugh, I'm used to the old boards where I could snip quotes to respond neatly. That method no longer seems to work here. Can someone please explain how I can break up a quote? I'm used to "quote||/quote" with brackets.

 

First, quote the post you want to quote. Then you should see a little button to the far left and on top - if you float the mouse over it, it doesn't identify itself, but it's next to the one that says "remove format" if you float the mouse over it.

 

Press that button and you'll change the post so that you can see and manipulate the familiar quote /quote.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

that should do it

[Manic Typist]

Something to consider.

 

If the central nation (Balancelandia) has merged the two sciences into a superior technology, then you have to ask is it reasonable at all that the other two nations would not steal that?

 

Human nature says we want security. If our neighbors have something superior we work very hard to get the same thing. This was a big reason why the Cold War lead to so many advances.

 

Also if Balancelandia's technology is as superior as you describe why would they not be considered the enemy of both the other states as Balancelandia would be expanding. Superior technology, means higher birth survival rates and longer life spans, means greater growing population, means more land needed, means neighbors become threatened.

 

 

PS: I really love the types of settings, and have run them before. Normally with the players crack teams trying to recover stolen technologies before it is to late or broker peace while constantly watching for spies.

 

 

Oh, espionage will be a major plot point from all sides. The major restrictions are that magic is something you have or you don't, so you have to encourage defectors (in the uprising, I'm imagining most native magical Ultrians were killed and that now presents a strategic problem they wish they didn't have), and industrial secrets are jealously guarded by both the originators and those who manage to steal them (Obera will be fracticious, as the king maintains a delicate balance of power by pitting different factions against each other).

 

Huma would be expanding except it is playing a very careful balancing act- it is trying to secure allies to itself/build them up to the point where it is truly secure. If either Ultria or Obera focused their full resources on it, Huma would fall -but such an effort would deeply deplete the fighting power of the attacker and leave it exposed to its enemy.

 

You've nailed the plot ideas perfectly - they will be protecting secrets, avoiding assassins, catching spies, and trying to prevent non-aligned nations from being forced into the spheres or the two superpowers and instead come toward Huma.

 

Your magical, fae aligned nation can be named The Kingdome of Obera, after Oberon, a name given to the king of Faerie. I see them as to the East.

 

Your technological, robot-inspired nation can be named The Ultrian Republic, after Ultron, a famous artificially intelligent robot you may be familiar with. I see them as to the West.

 

In the middle of the continent is Huma, the original homeland of Humans - a fact which may have become lost and forgotten, and may or may not become a relevant plot point eventually.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Also favoring a philosophy of balance is the desert nation of Palindromedaria. Or is it a dessert nation? That would be sweet.

 

Love it, stealing it, will probably name an NPC after you as a kudos. Thanks! 

 

First, quote the post you want to quote. Then you should see a little button to the far left and on top - if you float the mouse over it, it doesn't identify itself, but it's next to the one that says "remove format" if you float the mouse over it.

 

Press that button and you'll change the post so that you can see and manipulate the familiar quote /quote.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I tried this! I call the button the "lightswitch" (because to me it looks like one), but I find that inserting a

after the opening quote that contains the name information doesn't seem to close it out. I'll keep fidgeting with it.

 

 

[Manic Typist]

.....ok, ^^^^^ is really annoying me.

 

Test text 1.

Test text 2.

 

Test text 3.

[Manic Typist]

.....ok, ^^^^^ is really annoying me.

Now I'm testing this on myself.

 

Test text 3.

Edit: I'm doing the same thing to the other posts as my above two posts, and it.... isn't doing the same thing.

 

I blame the Illuminati.

[Cantriped]

I find it especially interesting that this topic came up because I have been working on a similar world design in one of my projects for 2017. The biggest difference (and actually a very important one) between your world design and mine is that in the world I am creating both of the competing world powers are utilizing magitek.

 

I've been using extant campaign settings (such as the Eberron and Iron Kingdoms), and anime series (such as Chiaka: The Coffin Princess and Tower of Druaga) as my inspiration. Obviously as a result I cannot give away any unique ideas I plan to use myself, however I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, and contributing the fruits of my research when I feel they are applicable to your vision.

 

On that note:

Have you given much thought to Druids? How would they feel about the conflict, and which nation would they side with?

In the Iron Kingdoms, one of the major factions are militant Druids who basically think everybody else is doing it wrong. They use lycanthropes, and golems made of stone and wood to compete with the giant monsters, undead abominations and magitek golems used by other factions.

 

How does magistan feel about necromancy?

In Eberron one of the most visually impactful of the five nations uses undead (mostly skeletons and zombies) to supplement their living military forces. Given your desire to have Magistan have a higher population, but relatively few mages, animating minor undead en masse would allow them to maintain a large standing army without over burdening their food supply. While the magistani may think nothing of the practice (peasants may even consider it patriotic to sell their corpse rights to mage-kings and serve their lords even in death), the practice may be a source of tension with the Techtopians... Especially when they see the corpses of their fallen comrades rise against them.

[DShomshak]

Cantriped raises an important design point: What kinds of magic are there? Just one, or multiple? (Or different flavors and applications of the same underlying paradigm.)

 

Just as an example, if magic in this world follows a Hermetic paradigm, there's an important difference between natural magic (exploiting the quasi-natural powers imbued into the world by God by applying the Doctrine of Signatures, sympathy, contagion, the affinities of various plants, animals, metals, etc. for the energies of the planets, and the like) and spiritual magic (invoking power from angels, demons, elemental spirits, etc.). Techtopia might accept natural magic through industrial alchemy and the like, while Magistan favors spiritual magic as the occult aristocrats wield their powers through pacts that are as much family property as their castles and manor-houses.

 

(Just an example. I'm not saying you *should* use Hermetic magic.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

Thinking about the political setup, based on the "Cold War" inspiration I think you might have five "grades" of countries:

 

*The Superpowers: Magistan and Techtopia.

*The Vassals: Smaller countries firmly allied to one side or another, analogous to NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

*The Non-Aligned: Developed countries that try to plot their own course without being dominated by either superpower. "Balancelandia" might not be a single country, but an emerging alliance within the non-aligned.

*The Third World: Less developed countries, often yanked back and forth between the swuperpowers. They are strong enough that they are worth recruiting/subverting -- in particular, they may have useful resources for which the superpowers compete -- but they have no real chance of charting their own path.

*The Fourth World: Desperately poor countries that maintain independence essentially because they have so little anyone else wants. In the developed world, people cluck their tongues at the familnes and brush wars, but do little or nothing about it.

 

The Non-Aligned may be doing interesting and novel things, both magically and politically, while the superpower alliances become more rigid in defining themselves through their opposition. The Third and Fourth Worlds superficially seem backward and unimportant, but they might have some quirky magical techniques that could be developed. And if you're willing to condense timeline analogies, you could have a radical movement growing in them -- analogous to Jihadism -- as people's anger grows at how both superpowers treat them. (And in some countries one superpower or another might be encouraging this movement as a way to undercut the other's dominance, as the US did in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan.) In your world, the blowback can begin a bit sooner.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Manic Typist]

I don't envision having a separate druidic magic, but perhaps there could be a faction of radical environmentalists who
oppose the depravations of industry upon the environment.

For magic, I'm envisioning a two-tier system. The first is fast and flashy - sorcery, channeling the fundamental forces. It consists of a trinity of trinities.

The Living Streams
1) Life (Growth)
2) Stasis (Continuity/Inertia)
3) Death (Decay)

The Material Arts
1) Destruction (Diminishment)
2) Preservation (Amplification)
3) Transformation (Alchemy/Alternation)

The Thoughtful Disciplines
1) Domination (Imposition/Insertion)
2) Liberation (Truth/Lies/Halluciation/Disinhibition)

3) Inception (Creativity/Novelty)

 

 

The second, in many ways more powerful tier, is true wizardry. These are the guys who can do things like teleportation, or create a spell that only allows people of the right bloodline to access a certain place, etc. They are the computer programers/engineers of magic, and the most deadly if given time to prepare - however this level of magic is mostly lost to humans. The Fae have spent centuries eliminating the art from human knowledge so that only they had access to it- and they grant it to select Oberran (Magistan) sorcerers sent to their "school" (think of a military academy meets Hogwarts) where they teach these advanced arts to humans, while simultaneously placing a geas upon them to ensure they can't share the knowledge and forces them to act as secret sleeper agents for the Fae. This gives the Fae access throughout the Oberran society, and keeps them dependent upon the Fae (who disguise themselves as a part of humanity, perhaps some kind of high church) for strength to resist their rivals.

 

Ultrians face a similar invisible problem in that advanced automata have been hidden throughout their regular mechanical forces, acting compliant to regular authority until their secret orders are activated.

 

So wizards capable of necromancy, etc. are incredibly rare, but yes, they would be useful. And yes, they would be hated by Ultrians (Techtopians).

 

Dshomshak- your concepts of the kinds of countries is right on point with what I envisioned, but it gives me further ideas. Thanks.

 

Cantriped- if you haven't already, I highly recommend that you check out Jim Butcher's Aeronaut's Windlass. Airships, magic, and a world covered in mist populated by animals that go berserk when they smell human blood - which has forced humanity to live in towers hundreds of stories tall.

[Old Man]

Might consider raiding Castle Falkenstein for ideas on combining magic with tech. Falkenstein is really rules-light so it shouldn't be that hard to convert.

[Manic Typist]

Interestingly, Falkenstein is exactly the reference that the player made when he expressed interest, and I had to go look it up.

 

I might pick up the PDF if I can find it on the cheap.

 

 

Also, another reading recommendation: The Powder Mage Trilogy. Gunpowder mages versus sorcerers, very good stuff. 

[tkdguy]

Falkenstein also has been translated to GURPS, so look out for that one as well.

[Manic Typist]

An update with some basic outlines of the air and land forces :

 

Brief Comparison of Air Forces

Ultria

·      Combination of wooden vessels suspended by balloons, ironclads that have balloons pressed underneath them

·      Powered by steam/Tesla batteries (pre-charged) or engines powered by magnets (perpetual motion)

·      Medium, copper coiled boarding missiles that spin/bore into other vessels

o   Only fit on larger ships

o   Operating procedure is to self-destruct them if the boarding action looks like it will fail- responsibility of young sailors (tweens)

o   Can mount tethers to drag ship closer – reduces range, increases chance of success through more boarders

o   The copper shielding helps pierce magical barriers by channeling voltage – that’s the utility over easier/cheaper torpedoes that just blow up

·      Small hooks/missiles can also be used

·      On average slower but tougher

o   Some ships can use Tesla batteries/rockets to boost (externally attached, frame can drop it after use to reduce weight)

·      Firepower consists of cannons, experimental rockets (same as land forces), crew with rifles, etc.

 

 

Obera

·      Primarily wood, bamboo/cloth etc. – easier to enchant to lift due to weight, repair, replace, carve runes into, etc. Makes them faster too

·      Gravity runes provide stability and a tactical advantage

o   No ones thought to apply these to land use – typical of Obera’s lack of cooperation/info sharing, experimenting with doctrine

o   Provide a prime target for Ultrian crews, who are used to/equipped to moving on ships without artificial gravity

·      Powered by magic flowing throughout runes running all over the ship- more energy efficient than ensorcerlling all parts of ship

o   A wizard’s flight spell works great for small things, not entire ships

o   Acts like a central nervous system/wiring system, degrades with damage

o   Power comes from magical batteries or a sorcerer actively putting power into them

o   Runes can be repaired by non-magical personnel

o   Best ships often cover the runes in panels to protect them, especially the central processing rune (CPR)

·      Sometimes augmented by flying magical creatures

·      Ships are ad-hoc, custom. Makes them slow to build/repair/replace

o   Plot point- one group of unusually forward thinking wizards/sorcerers set up a dedicated shipyard to crank out consistent ships faster. Prime target.

·      Ships tend to be faster, better climbers. Can ignore or create own winds to use with sails, wings, etc.

·      Enchanted gliders – can be used as boarders, or near ports as a local patrol/QRF, air assault, evac from a ship/area, etc.

·      Cheap, disposable feather fall rings

o   Lifejackets for the crew, highly sought after by Ultrian crews (parachutes not evented yet)

·      Firepower is mostly sorcerors supported by magic items (enchanted arrows, heatseekers, etc.).

 

 

Brief Comparison of Land Forces, Some Tactics

Ultria

·      Cannons, experimental rockets, tank sized mecha and clockwork golems

·      Line infantry, dragoons

o   Militia and standing army, commissions are bought

o   Armed with a mixture of rifles, muskets, etc.

 

Obera

·      Typical fantasy ground forces of varying degrees of competence, deadliness

·      Enviro-control spells, magical darkness, storms, clouds to interfere w/sight and powder, nightvision paste

o   These are the strategies of smart Oberran casters/commanders

·      Noble leadership that is essentially a mirror of Ultria’s, but based on bloodline/station, peerage, etc.

 

 

Naval forces exist, but I don't see a need to develop them just yet. The point of developing force concepts is to be able to get a feel for what the status quo is in terms of forces facing off against each other, potential sources of enemy combatants the PCs would face, and to answer common questions.

 

Have some very loose thoughts down in terms of internal security forces and external agents (spies, assassins, special forces types). These are some of the more common threats I expect to the PCs to face, supplemented by the kinds of characters and settings the above tables suggest.

[Cantriped]

Unless your world just happened to have also had a mad scientist named Tesla, it probably isn't appropriate for you to use his name for your technobabble. I know it screams steampunk to have Tesla-this and Tesla-that, but there are plenty of other, more accurate terms you could be using. Such as "Electro-Magnetic Springs" (or EMSs).

You should also be very careful with the concept of perpetual motion engines (or PMEs), the existence of such a device would have immeasurable impact on a world with clockwork technology. Even if such devices are large and produce very little torque, with an appropriate gearbox can still be used to "charge" all sorts of spring-powered clockworks. Even a single PME could theoretically be used to indirectly power all of a fortifications mechanisms. the risk of sabotage would only encourage governments to build back-up engines, or isolate the engine itself and wind your clockworks through proxy devices which are more easily repaired. The existence of PME technology would render any fuel-driven engine obsolete. Why bother with reliance on steam-engines when you can produce and store mechanical energy directly without any significant resource expenditure? The smaller and more powerful the PME becomes, the less credible it becomes that the entire country wouldn't be relying on them for everything possible.

Naturally, the same considerations have to be given to any potential sources of perpetual magical energy.

[Manic Typist]

Tesla was more my shorthand way of describing overlarge devices that shoot off electricity, are used for power, and have improbably fantastic explanations for how they work.

 

And you're right, of course - I combined two very different ideas in my notes that I was scribbling during a meeting and didn't research it after the fact. So the very advanced engines might be advanced magnets that "run silent" or somesuch against sorcerors trying to detect the power of a "Tesla" engine vessel, for instance, but it wouldn't be truly perpetual. 

 

Of course, the secret automata faction (who still needs a name), MIGHT actually have such a thing. It might even be their god.

 

Edit: Perhaps that is the major motivating factor for the Automata animosity - their perpetual motion deity/creator (perhaps it originated off-world and has a long term agenda of getting off-world again to resume its original mission?) is being thrown off-kilter by the inherent unpredictability (at least as far as its concerned) of magic and the Fae - it doesn't know how to adapt its workings to account for the perturbations they represent. So as long as they exist, it has concluded, it cannot return to its optimal, perpetual state, but instead is slowly winding down (and even though it projects out continued operational functionality for several millennia, that's waaaaay short of infinity). Sort of classical mechanics meets quantum uncertainty, perhaps? Physics is far from my wheelhouse and it's late.

 

Plus, this is fantasy. It has to be real enough to be engaging and entertaining, not perfectly simulate reality. If I wanted that, I'd buy a flight simulator.

[Cantriped]

I'm not trying to tell you to ditch the concept of perpetual motion engines, just consider their applications and impact thoroughly. If you don't, the players will do it for you, and you may not like the result.

 

Moving on... It looks like Obera has a fairly significant advantage over Ultria in terms of their respective airforces; which is okay because Obera is spending a scarce resource outfitting their airships (sorcerers). To balance this in a power struggle, you should make sure that Ultria has a significant advantage in their ground forces. For example, surface to air weapons with longer range and greater accuracy would do much to curb Obera's advantage. Otherwise the land forces appear fairly well matched (depending upon how advanced firearm technology is). Muzzle-loading firearms are so slow to fire that an army using bows and crossbows can still compete, especially with the aid of magic to improve the durability of tower shields. However automatic weapons will significantly overpower primitive military strategies (even magically assisted ones); the anime Gate is a fairly good example of what happens when you pit modern military technology against a fantastical medieval military.

[Manic Typist]

I confess, I've struggled with finding the balance in the level of technology - too advanced, too ubiquitous, and the Obera doesn't stand a chance - unless I dialed the magic up to the point that it completely changed the flavor of the game/became an allternate form of advanced tech/ruined the feel I was going for.

 

That's partly why I'm leaning towards American Civil War era tech for Ultria as a base - so most troops are armed with muzzle loaders, but some troops have repeating rifles, revolvers, and early automatic weapons (Gatling guns) exist. I'm thinking that these are new enough that they haven't been produced in enough quantity to replace the entire weapons inventory - plus it's expensive to buy enough weapons for an army of let's say.... a million troops, plus militia troops (but screw those guys- they can get secondhand weapons and be grateful for it, buncha farmers and factory workers...). The appearance of these weapons are a recent occurrence that hasn't yet, but certainly would given time, drastically upset the balance of power between the two states.

 

The other advantage I see helping Ultria is food prodcution- industrialized societies generally far outproduce food compared to non-industrial, and that allows them to field much larger armies. 

 

 

Magic

Of course, one of the players wants to play a caster, so now I have to develop this further. 

 

I want sorcerers and wizards to play very differently.

 

I'm thinking sorcerers are fast, flashy, but relatively "unsophisticated." Most can only channel one kind of energy (see my earlier post in this thread about magic), although some are skilled/strong enough to be able to tap into multiple flows. They have to use personal endurance (it's exhausting to channel the energy) or very rare (and probably made by a wizard) prepared battery (mana pool essentially). Channeling more than one type of energy at the same time is EXTREMELY dangerous - if you mess it up, it could literally cause you to explode.

 

The reason is that this matters is that the only thing that can defend against one kind of energy is another - a Life magic (call it Green) blast will pass straight through a Life magic (Green) shield. So you either need to buddy up with a sorcerer of another color/flow, or you need to be good enough (and willing) to channel multiple colors simultaneously. Most who can still don't take the gamble - they drop their defense to launch an attack, and then pull up a color to block the return fire. The best sorcerers though could pull up a shield of several colors at once - and attack the same way.

 

So, for sorcerers, I see them as having the ability to use advantages that allow them to cast faster, without gestures or incantations, but LoS requirements, all spells must originate at the caster's location, etc.

 

Wizards- classic fantasy stuff, but also Extra Time limitations, Gestures, Incantations, etc. They work by essentially finding a safe way to combine all the streams together through proper spellcasting - to create a Golem, one has to combine flows from all three Arts (probably Inception, Domination, Life, and Transformation. Oh, and Stasis so that it endures for any length of time).

 

 

Thoughts?

[Cantriped]

*steps up onto soapbox*

I'm not a fan of overly complex magic systems (anymore), I feel they are a D&Dish which is inappropriate to the cinematic approach to gaming I've come to prefer. Unless there is a truly worthwhile, cinematic reason to differentiate them, you really only need one type of spellcaster, and there is little to no reason to try to define every school or type of magic up front. Trying to pin everything down at this stage will only lead you to write yourself into a corner. Players have this annoying habit of wanting to play the one thing you didn't expect. Paint in broad strokes.

 

The most important element you've outlined for your magic system, and the only one that I think that is important to your world design, is the concept that magical power is hereditary. As such, regardless of what "school of magic" a character practices, or how it is acquired/learned, how good a given character is at is should be largely depending upon how many generations their family has been practicing that school of magic. You know you'll need a "traditional spellcaster"; but they don't all have to work the same way, and you don't need to know what all the different types are right now. Focus on one or two "schools" of spellcaster in the same way you'd have "schools" of swordsmen, but leave the system itself vague enough that the players can still bring in what they want (because playing what you want it Hero System's greatest draw)... For example:

 

Perhaps Obera has a long established Imperial Academy of Rune Magic where they study the "school of rune-magic". A rune-mage would use drawn, painted, or carved runes in all of their spells; whether that means they carry a rune-carved staff from which they hurl fireballs, or draw runes on a door to reinforce it temporarily. Rune magic could easily draw on the principles of True-Names, and require study to master.

Meanwhile deep in the forests of Obera, a druidic sect has developed an entirely different "school of druidism". Such a druid has control over elements of nature; they can command beasts, control plants, and call storms by verbal command (and exhaustive expenditures of mental energy). However, druids didn't gain their power from study, but from kinship with nature and decades spent in the wild.

 

In Ultria, the elite have developed the school of "alchemy" and "artifice" which they go to great lengths to deny is actually magic (and they may honestly believe it isn't). However, the best alchemists and artificers are always those who have collected the most generations worth of obscure lore. Alchemists create any number of useful products, such as extraordinary medicines, explosives, and fuels. Artificers make all sorts of wondrous devices, such as perpetual motion engines, artificial limbs, and event sentient machines.

 

So long as you keep the "core rules" of your magic system simple and vague, any number of different systems can coexist. Further, you won't be scrambling when the player asks for something entirely reasonable but which you've failed to account for (such as a demon worshiping cultist, who summons real demons).

*steps down from soapbox*

[phydaux]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet in the thread, but your setting reminds me very much of the Warhammer Fantasy Battles setting (before Games Workshop, literally, blew up the game world).

 

In the GW setting the Empire of Men lay between the forest kingdoms of the High Elves and the mountain kingdom of the Dwarves.  The Dwarves had gunpowder with crude muskets, cannons, and mortars.  The Elves had perfected magic better than any other race.  The Empire, because they interacted with both kingdoms, borrowed greatly from each. The humans weren't as good at magic as the Elves, not did they craft guns as well as the Dwarves, but they were just good enough at both to be a threat with them.

[phydaux]

I'll throw out one idea for you, one that you should be well aware of if you play Champions:

 

3d6 RKA is "rules"

 

"Musket" and "Wand of Lightning Bolt" are pure special effects.  

 

So long as "Musket" and "Spell of Lightning Bolt" are both 45 active point OAF RKAs then Techtopia and Magistan will be fine.  Each "nation" does the exact same things, they just do them differently.

 

Techtopia has ships suspended under hot air balloons and propelled by blades hooked to a steam engine (which also heats the hot air balloons).  The balloons and the steam engine needs the constant attention of a huge team of engineers or the whole thing will fall out of the sky.

 

Magistan has ships with Levitate spells enchanted onto them and propelled by air elementals.  The enchantments and the elementals need the constant attention of a large team of sorcerers or the whole thing will fall out of the sky.

 

But both are just vehicles with whatever stats vehicles have.  The magic and the steam punk are just hand waving.

[phydaux]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet in the thread, but your setting reminds me very much of the Warhammer Fantasy Battles setting (before Games Workshop, literally, blew up the game world).

 

In the GW setting the Empire of Men lay between the forest kingdoms of the High Elves and the mountain kingdom of the Dwarves.  The Dwarves had gunpowder with crude muskets, cannons, and mortars.  The Elves had perfected magic better than any other race.  The Empire, because they interacted with both kingdoms, borrowed greatly from each. The humans weren't as good at magic as the Elves, not did they craft guns as well as the Dwarves, but they were just good enough at both to be a threat with them.

 

Also, World of Warcraft has a lot of "arcanepunk" elements to it.  It has all the classic fantasy tropes, but it also has gunpowder weapons, blimps, air planes, cannons, helicopters, gyrocopters, hell it has motorcycles.  

 

I would suggest that you steal shamelessly from both WoW and GW.