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The HERO system syndrome


jdounis

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Hello everyone,

 

    As i spend more time playing with the HERO system i find it increasingly difficult to adapt or try to play with another system. I own like 100 system core rulebooks trying all these years to find the holy grail that will bring the right mix of freedom of creation and flexibility on the crunchiness level required for each party but nothing surpasses HERO.

   In my current state if i open a new core rulebook its a matter of time until i get to a dead end regarding character option or GM'S options(and being mostly a GM for the last 18 years that's really a problem) also what makes HERO system really exceptional is its support, very few system have an official board for answers, if at all, and keep posting errata even after almost 9 years from their production. The other generic RPGs i have purchased fall apart each with major flaws(expensive, limited depth and power scale, NO support/errata/official board at all(Cypher System). I think once someone embraces HERO it's too difficult to accept the boundaries of other systems even if they come packed with fluff.

 

Anyone other affected with this syndrome?  :snicker:

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That's sort of the point of generic RPGs: they become the first tool you reach for when planning a campaign.

 

I do still run non-generic games, but it's just been for one-shots and short campaigns in the last several years. All my long-running campaigns this decade have been run from a generic system: either HERO or GURPS (although there was one run in Savage Worlds, but by the end of that we decided it wasn't the system for us).

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I still run Pathfinder, becuase even though it shoves things into ugly, ugly boxes sometimes, I can run it with little to no planning. Pathfinder has a random table or statblock for prettymuch anything I could ever need to run a generic high-fantasy adventure.

 

However, when I want to discuss with my wife how a character from a show we watch is represented by game rules, or when I want to design a character/adventure/campaign from scratch, Hero system is always what I gravitate to. I do like to read other system's published campaign settings for ideas I can mine though.

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I prefer the OS-for-role-playing's that is Hero System over all other role playing game systems -- specifically because I don't need a hand card to lug around the complete set of rules ... which do all that I need and then some.  That said, I still tolerate other systems if that's what is required to game with friends ... but it's just that: tolerance of other systems.

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Once I found Hero I stopped running everything else and have stayed with it through 3 more editions.  I use other game systems for ideas, maps, scenarios, etc, but I always use Hero for the actual game because of its power, simplicity, flexibility, and incredible ability to simulate almost anything even better than the original source.

 

edit: I would play other systems if my buddies wanted to like D20 or Savage Worlds, because I just like role playing games.  But they always come up short.  What frustrates me is when we play those systems and some knucklehead at the table says 'wow this is cool in this system we can do [insert something Hero already does, better]!'

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I still play Pathfinder, but I do find it difficult to play other systems. My reasoning is this. I would rather be able to make absolutely anything within guidelines of a game than be limited with something like D&D. Pathfinder is "better" than D&D at that, but still has problems. Even in a Fantasy game, I can play very unique characters in HERO (like perhaps an animancer), but less so in Pathfinder (where the closest thing is a necromancer).

 

This does two things. 

 

1) I lose part of my character that I want to play

 

2) Restricts my powers to the specific rulebook.

 

Besides, does a DM/GM really want to deal with a large group who ALL take Magic Missile from day one?

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I whole heartedly agree with the consensus.  I began playing Hero the Summer of 1981 and have never really been able to look at another game.

 

But this does beg the question, if the Hero System is the best Generic Point Buy system out there, why do we continue to struggle with a fan base?  Why can't DOJ sell enough products to remain profitable?  As it stands, very little is being released for the game and most of what is I consider absolutely sub par (I am not speaking of the big Kick Starters and such but more about the stuff being created with the OLA).  I truly miss the days of the Prospective Books for the upcoming year and chomping at the bit until the books came out.

 

It saddens me that even the partnership with Champions-Online couldn't get us out of this funk.  I am not sure if it is indicative of the nature of PNP RPGs in general or of something more related to HERO.  There is a steep learning curve and some people just seem not to want to even try.  One of the reasons I would love to see Chris Taylor's idea of the Starter Pack succeed.

 

My $.02,

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I whole heartedly agree with the consensus.  I began playing Hero the Summer of 1981 and have never really been able to look at another game.

 

But this does beg the question, if the Hero System is the best Generic Point Buy system out there, why do we continue to struggle with a fan base?  Why can't DOJ sell enough products to remain profitable?  As it stands, very little is being released for the game and most of what is I consider absolutely sub par (I am not speaking of the big Kick Starters and such but more about the stuff being created with the OLA).  I truly miss the days of the Prospective Books for the upcoming year and chomping at the bit until the books came out.

 

It saddens me that even the partnership with Champions-Online couldn't get us out of this funk.  I am not sure if it is indicative of the nature of PNP RPGs in general or of something more related to HERO.  There is a steep learning curve and some people just seem not to want to even try.  One of the reasons I would love to see Chris Taylor's idea of the Starter Pack succeed.

 

My $.02,

 

  I completely agree about the steep learning curve and the unwillingness of many casual players to learn a superior but demanding in terms of study system, but such a community and official support is a superior asset to our

goal of spreading this superiority. I don't want to repeat myself but the most disturbing thing for me in a product is the lack of support, i did the mistake and in an impulse  i purchased Cypher System a year ago just to check about the whole hype on it only to discover that in order to get an official answer on a clear mistake/inconsistency in the core book , i waited two months and the reply was "discuss it with your GM and find the answer that suits your playing group" the good thing was that is pretty cold here in January and i needed some fuel for the fireplace.

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I do find it a little disappointing how little support there has been for ​Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete​. They were supposed to be Hero Games' new flagship products... Yet since their release very few products have been published which are compatible with them specifically. Nor is there a forum for CC/FHC specific rules questions. I don't consider Steve Long a credible source for answers to CC/FHC questions, since he only references 5th and 6th edition source books; although to be fair, I doubt either Michael Surbrook or Derek Hiemforth have the kind of free time Steve Long has to devote to such a forum anyway.

 

Regarding our struggling fan base:  This is simply my personal observation, but there appear to be more new faces coming to the boards lately... there are also lots of dissatisfied Pathfinder and D&D 5th Edition consumers scouring the market for "Something Better". I think now is the time for Hero Games to invest in a massive advertising campaign to draw consumers attention to CC/FHC and grow our fan base. Likewise, we Herophiles need to start writing (or start writing better) supplements for those source books so that the new consumers we get don't fall off the learning curve before the company can regain traction.

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I usually have the same sort of experience when reading other RPG rules as well. I always come away thinking, why would I use a different system that requires me to patch the existing mechanics and invent a bunch of new ones, when all those mechanics already exist (and usually in a far more elegant form) in the Hero System? The lure of some shiny new system always dissipates rapidly after a read-through of its rules, and the extent to which it is lacking (usually in flexibility and scalability) becomes apparent.

 

Of course, that power and flexibility comes at the cost of study: one must make the effort to learn and master the Hero System in order to reap its benefits. And I think the effort required is too daunting for most casual players, which is why it is so hard to grow the player base significantly today. Never mind the fact that the Hero System is not presented in a form that is attractive to most RPGers.

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Hello everyone,

 

    As i spend more time playing with the HERO system i find it increasingly difficult to adapt or try to play with another system. I own like 100 system core rulebooks trying all these years to find the holy grail that will bring the right mix of freedom of creation and flexibility on the crunchiness level required for each party but nothing surpasses HERO.

   In my current state if i open a new core rulebook its a matter of time until i get to a dead end regarding character option or GM'S options(and being mostly a GM for the last 18 years that's really a problem) also what makes HERO system really exceptional is its support, very few system have an official board for answers, if at all, and keep posting errata even after almost 9 years from their production. The other generic RPGs i have purchased fall apart each with major flaws(expensive, limited depth and power scale, NO support/errata/official board at all(Cypher System). I think once someone embraces HERO it's too difficult to accept the boundaries of other systems even if they come packed with fluff.

 

Anyone other affected with this syndrome?  :snicker:

Story of my Gaming life... :D

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I whole heartedly agree with the consensus.  I began playing Hero the Summer of 1981 and have never really been able to look at another game.

 

But this does beg the question, if the Hero System is the best Generic Point Buy system out there, why do we continue to struggle with a fan base?  Why can't DOJ sell enough products to remain profitable?  As it stands, very little is being released for the game and most of what is I consider absolutely sub par (I am not speaking of the big Kick Starters and such but more about the stuff being created with the OLA).  I truly miss the days of the Prospective Books for the upcoming year and chomping at the bit until the books came out.

 

It saddens me that even the partnership with Champions-Online couldn't get us out of this funk.  I am not sure if it is indicative of the nature of PNP RPGs in general or of something more related to HERO.  There is a steep learning curve and some people just seem not to want to even try.  One of the reasons I would love to see Chris Taylor's idea of the Starter Pack succeed.

 

My $.02,

Some of that is the lack of willingness to use Champs Online to create an Entry Level RPG. I know that character Gen there is very structured, but that would be pretty easy to bring into the PnP Game. Also the fact that CO bombed in the marketplace killed any other incentive by both companies (DOJ/Hero, and Cryptic) to do much more work in that direction.

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I do find it a little disappointing how little support there has been for ​Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete​. They were supposed to be Hero Games' new flagship products... Yet since their release very few products have been published which are compatible with them specifically. Nor is there a forum for CC/FHC specific rules questions. I don't consider Steve Long a credible source for answers to CC/FHC questions, since he only references 5th and 6th edition source books; although to be fair, I doubt either Michael Surbrook or Derek Hiemforth have the kind of free time Steve Long has to devote to such a forum anyway.

 

Regarding our struggling fan base:  This is simply my personal observation, but there appear to be more new faces coming to the boards lately... there are also lots of dissatisfied Pathfinder and D&D 5th Edition consumers scouring the market for "Something Better". I think now is the time for Hero Games to invest in a massive advertising campaign to draw consumers attention to CC/FHC and grow our fan base. Likewise, we Herophiles need to start writing (or start writing better) supplements for those source books so that the new consumers we get don't fall off the learning curve before the company can regain traction.

Steve Only answers Questions about the full 6e Rulebooks. I don't think he wants to deal with the edited down Complete books. (Please DON'T start a whole discussion about this, it's a really dead horse that has gotten people banned  :dh: )

 

Like most of the smaller companies Hero doesn't have the money to run huge advertising campaigns. Even if they did where would they run those ads? Adventures really don't make that much money, not as much as Core Rules, Genre books and Game Worlds. Because all players will buy those three. Adventures are only purchased by GMs.

 

We do have champions Adventures and Supplements coming out of BlackWyrm Games. Perhaps someone will write some adventures for FHC's little campaign world.

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I don't blame Steve, he had nothing to do with them (as far as I know).

 

Isofar as the popularity of Core Rules & Supplements over Adventures goes I honestly wouldn't know... In every group I have GM'd for recently I've been the only one who owned any of the rulebooks being used by the table (it has always been one of those "if you run it, they will come" sort of things). So from my perspective, GMs make up the entirety of my expected target market.

 

If I were trying to put together an advertising campaign for Hero, I would probably start with banner ads on web-comics. Banner Ads are cheap, and there are literally hundreds of gaming-related web-comics which are read by thousands of people every day. Considering that I keep up with at least 6 different comics, I'm sure there is a lot of overlap in readership, but it is still better than waiting for people to find Hero by accident...

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The lack of official advertising is the #1 reason I have accounts on several other multi-game websites,  The most notable are RPGnet, RPGgeek and ENworld. All have a small core of longtime HERO fans.  And each group is fractured further by what they consider to be the best version of the rules (4th is the one has the widest familiarity).  I try to promote HERO whenever I have a chance (without badmouthing other systems in the process).  RPGnet is a much much nicer place now than just a few years ago. There are occasionally more active HERO threads over there than on this website.  RPGgeek is an even friendlier place but the structure of the website is so 'quirky' it's hard to get many people involved in a discussion about any single RPG.  The gaming database is absolutely fantastic though.  ENworld is... disapointing to say the least.  It puts on airs of being a multi-game site but it's really D&D centric at its core.

 

HM 

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Hero's greatest strength is also unfortunatly it's biggest drawback. The system is so versatile that within a large group of players and GM's (like I started off playing with many years ago) some will become so proficient with the rules that characters became too efficient with very few points.

I knew a player who had a character named Cat Master with only two abilitys.

1). A large VPP with the heavy limitation that it only affected cats.

2). A Transform attack that turned anything into a cat. Cars, buildings, villains, other PC's, the planet Earth....

All he had to do was do the transform, perform whatever voodoo he wanted, and then so it would leave the door open for himself next time, not really turn anything or one back, but just an illusion that made it or them look like they did before.

An extreme example, and the player only ran him a few times and then retired him to NPC status. The point is though that unless a GM is willing to drop the hammer on a player for being too smart or too creative (and may not even have that option if it's a multi GM game) it becomes easy for one or two bad apples to bend flexible rules.

P.S. I learned to play Champions at the M.I.T. Strategic Games Society. Everyone of 'em one lab accident away from super powers.

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There are things that I don't like about Hero but you know, being a toolkit system makes it real easy for me to adapt  the game to my needs. I tend to throw sacred cows into the hamburger grinder and move on with what works. Amazingly, Hero has not broken despite everything I've done to try. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that my tastes would transfer over to, say, Zslane's or Tasha's games, but they do work when I want to run something.

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Except that limitation isn't so heavy if the character can make anything a cat.

 

The limitation on one Power set doesn't take into effect other Powers or skills that a Character might have. That's the loophole that the player in question discovered.

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The limitation on one Power set doesn't take into effect other Powers or skills that a Character might have. 

 

 

It does unless your GM is not very observant or experienced.  This is by definition exactly a limitation that is not worth as much because of circumstances.  Its like having a power that only works in darkness and a perpetual darkness field.  Ordinarily, maybe a ½ limitation, but now?  It may not be worth anything.

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    As i spend more time playing with the HERO system i find it increasingly difficult to adapt or try to play with another system. I own like 100 system core rulebooks trying all these years to find the holy grail that will bring the right mix of freedom of creation and flexibility on the crunchiness level required for each party but nothing surpasses HERO.

   In my current state if i open a new core rulebook its a matter of time until i get to a dead end regarding character option or GM'S options(and being mostly a GM for the last 18 years that's really a problem) also what makes HERO system really exceptional is its support, very few system have an official board for answers, if at all, and keep posting errata even after almost 9 years from their production. The other generic RPGs i have purchased fall apart each with major flaws(expensive, limited depth and power scale, NO support/errata/official board at all(Cypher System). I think once someone embraces HERO it's too difficult to accept the boundaries of other systems even if they come packed with fluff.

 

Anyone other affected with this syndrome?  :snicker:

Yeah, I could've written almost this exact post in 1985, and every game day since. I play other systems, and have occasionally even run other systems, but Hero is always my first choice.

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