The HERO system syndrome

[Christopher R Taylor]

I get a sense that, after a dip during the 90s -00s due to collectable card games, RPGs are kind of resurging, in a modest way.  People who are gamers are having kids they teach and run games with, so they end up playing too.  How far this will go is unclear, role  playing games by their very nature appeal to a pretty narrow section of the population.

[bigdamnhero]

Yeah 4th edition was a blight on gaming, and should be relegated to the same category as Highlander 2.  I know what they were trying to do but it was a horrific failure.

4ed D&D was trying to create a very specific type of game play, and it did that very well. So from that perspective it was successful. It just turned out no one wanted to play that specific game. And I say thank god, because it finally put the nail in the coffin of "let's make tabletop RPGs more like those video games the kids love."

[zslane]

Endeavoring to dump a steaming pile (of a game) onto the hobby, and doing it really well, is hardly worthy of praise in my book.

[TheDarkness]

Sounds like I was fortunate to have missed out on the fourth edition.

 

After looking at how threads about Hero's virtues goes, I think it's fair to say that Hero gives us a convenient excuse to complain about D&D in as curmudgeonly a way as possible. That's at least one of the symptoms of Hero Syndrome. Summarizing real world phenomenon by what their points cost is, finding nine ways to build a flying winnebago, and complaining about other game systems are three of the main symptoms as far as I can tell. There is probably no cure.

 

Usually symptoms get worse when someone says a system can also build a fruititarian mage whose magic mainly works on cheese, especially if the system given as an example doesn't really do that, but just has a stock fruititarian mage and a cheese psychokinesis(fromagisis?) system that in no way is the same as we clearly imagine such a thing to exist. Don't these people understand, we want precision in how our game represents our cheese magic?

[Ninja-Bear]

Yes The Darkness. And if someone dare mentions classes and how to convert DnD spells. Oh my! And don't forget lets dissect and argue over point costs and value.

[TheDarkness]

Older strains of Hero Syndrome may involve anger at the mention of figured characteristics and Elemental Controls.

 

Make sure to talk to your GM or game store professional before taking Hero.

 

Hero has been known to lead to guests eating your snack supplies in some users.

[Christopher R Taylor]

And I say thank god, because it finally put the nail in the coffin of "let's make tabletop RPGs more like those video games the kids love."

 

 

Supposedly their intent was to make it more like a collectable card game, but in practice yeah, that's what it was: a table top video game.  And it was terrible.

[Tasha]

A stretched-out release schedule didn't seem to make sense in the 80s and 90s. And there are some here who believe that the player base is as large and robust today as it was back then. Surely WotC can make a 1-campaign-book-per-month (rather than 1-campaign-book-per-quarter-if-they're-lucky) business model work for their flagship product.

The numbers I have seen suggest that the player base is actually quite a bit larger than in the 80's and 90's the problem is that we are divided up into a bajillion systems(Mostly D&D Clones) so the pool of gamers for other systems seems small.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

The numbers I have seen suggest that the player base is actually quite a bit larger than in the 80's and 90's the problem is that we are divided up into a bajillion systems(Mostly D&D Clones) so the pool of gamers for other systems seems small.

 

 

I think it's also true. And with mention sin Hollywood of a few actors that have played, and still play tabletop, plus a couple of twitch and youtube games, things look a bit more "accepted" than they did back in the 80's

[zslane]

Do we have something of a chicken and egg problem there, then? Publishers need large, concentrated player bases to sustain robust, monthly publishing schedules, but can't acquire and maintain large, concentrated player bases without sustained, robust product flows to keep them spending their money every month. Given the fickle character of players today, publishers have to not only make the first move, they have to make all the moves. You can't pussyfoot around and be a part-time publisher if you want a healthy, growing player base. But that's pretty much what it seems everyone does now. Which is probably why hardly anyone has healthy, growing player bases anymore. Even WotC lives as much off their past glories (i.e., the sheer strength of their brand name) as they do off their current, somewhat anemic production schedule.

[Joe Walsh]

Right. And the two non-D&D games that have solid bases, Fate and Savage Worlds, have plenty of third-party support that keeps the product flowing.

[zslane]

In a truly healthy RPG industry, games don't rely on third-party support to keep them alive. Third-party support is supposed to supplement the first-party publisher, help spread the gospel, and offer "alternative" product the first-party publisher can't get to because they are too busy getting the mainline productions out every month. There is no clearer sign that you have abandoned your post and left your brand in the hands of part-timers than when the third parties are (primarily, if not exclusively) the ones "keeping the product flowing".

[Joe Walsh]

Sure, first party support is fundamental. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

[zslane]

The interesting thing about Savage Worlds, at least in my view, is that almost from the beginning that system was presented as a kind of community system; in other words, one in which the lifeblood of the system was intended to be third-party campaign settings. It put third-part products on even footing with official product from Pinnacle, which is a philosophy that is almost OGL-like in its orientation. Contrast this with D&D which has traditionally been a brand whereby TSR (and then WotC) has always been the "official" product, and everything else deemed acceptable but not exactly its first-class citizens.

 

To my mind, the production model for Savage Worlds is a great experiment, one intended to see if a system can be sustained in the marketplace almost exclusively on the basis of how openly it embraces third-party development and treats it as every bit as "official" (or at least deserving of that perception) as Pinnacle-branded product. I guess the test of that success can be measured in two things: how healthy is the Savage Worlds brand (financially and in terms of marketshare), and how many third-party campaign settings have become enduring, successful product lines.

 

In any event, I don't think the Savage Worlds model works for D&D because expectations for the D&D brand are so different (and on a much vaster scale). Frankly, I'm not so sure WotC is living up to those expectations anymore.

[steriaca]

Do we have something of a chicken and egg problem there, then? Publishers need large, concentrated player bases to sustain robust, monthly publishing schedules, but can't acquire and maintain large, concentrated player bases without sustained, robust product flows to keep them spending their money every month. Given the fickle character of players today, publishers have to not only make the first move, they have to make all the moves. You can't pussyfoot around and be a part-time publisher if you want a healthy, growing player base. But that's pretty much what it seems everyone does now. Which is probably why hardly anyone has healthy, growing player bases anymore. Even WotC lives as much off their past glories (i.e., the sheer strength of their brand name) as they do off their current, somewhat anemic production schedule.

Seems that way. I can see us sitting around a virtual table in ten years saying "Remember when Hero Games had third party support? Remember when Hero Games had first party support? Man I miss the ICE and Fusion ages."

[zslane]

Yeah, that may turn out to be very accurate a prediction. Already we have no first-party support, and third-party support today is really just competent fan support.

 

Frankly, I've been missing the ICE days for nearly 20 years now...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Definitely 4th edition with ICE backing was the high point for Hero in terms of reach and publication.  It would be wonderful to go back to that kind of model, where Hero puts out lots of support material with fun, exciting covers, but that is a bit out of reach for the ownership at this point.  Its kind of up to us to get things rolling again by spreading the word, so that Hero can get back on its feet, really. 

Unless one of you is really wealthy and wants to infuse the game you love with cash.

[Spence]

Getting the word out isn't much use when the local hobby communities can't get the product from their distributors.

 

My Hero gaming has gone from a weekly event at my FLGS with people grabbing books off the shelf. To the occasional private game using my books.

[Hyper-Man]

This is all the result of elevating "the bottom line" (online sales) to such importance that no thought is given to the loss of indirect marketing provided by brick and mortar FLGS.  Not likely to change without new investment though.  If I ever win the lottery though...

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Print is very expensive, but POD services aren't, and several of my books are available on amazon to buy, in print.  Not that any sell mind you but they're out there and distributors can get them.  The problem isn't a lack of books, its a lack of interest in game stores.  Why stock what people don't know and aren't buying?  Shelf space is dear, unless people are playing a game.

[steriaca]

The problem is the great catch 22. You want people to see and buy the product. You want the product to be a decent price. And you want the price of the product to be high enough to support both the bosses and the creators of said product (writers and artists). Hero needs a nice sugger dadie, because Hero has proven that without someone providing the day by day finances so they could focus on the creation side of things, they start to loose.

 

Iron Crown Enterprise was the perfect sugger daddie. They let Hero be Hero, and Hero prospered with that arrangement. There team up with Cybergames and R. Taisariem(sp!) gave us Fusion and Fusion Labs. It also gave us some nice anime based games (Bubble Gum Crisis, Dragonball Z, Mektron Fusion). And it also gave us...Champions: The Next Generation. We hated it (Champions:TNG), but at least there was something being published.

 

And there is where we are now. The gamble which failed. Selling the entier Champions line to finance a 6ed, and having it be leased back, all upon the chance that the end product (Champions Online) would take off.

[Tasha]

From what I have seen is that Player's aren't fickle at all. They tend to be very dedicated to their game. To the point where they really won't try new things no matter how their current system annoys them. We can see this time and time again from posts to this board alone. Where people complain about not being able to attract players to a system that isn't a flavor of D&D. I think we are getting to the point where players are more annoyed with D&D and may start to think about different systems. There just has to be a reasonably easy point of entry into that other game system.

Pinnacle does this very well with Savage Worlds. With it's $10 core rulebook and even a free test drive that includes characters and a short adventure. Pinnacle also supports the hell out of it's genre books by including adventures, Player's guides, Printable Figure standups, Soundtracks, even themed Poker Chips and Dice. Not to mention GM screen Inserts, one page adventures and a ton of game supplements. All in more or less bite sized books. They pretty much barf that out and then just go onto the next product.

[Tasha]

ICE was very much less than perfect. It's easy to look back with rose tinted glasses, but they left ICE for a reason. They would have remained with R.Tal if the company hadn't decided to go into hibernation. R.Tal was a good fit. Mike P is a Huge Hero System fan. Fusion may not have been perfect, but it had a lot of great ideas. It was just not executed well enough with the first release (ie not including the whole powerset was a HUGE mistake IMHO).

Steve's output during the DOJ days really exceeded Hero During the ICE days and all of his books were larger and better put together.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its obviously better to have a big time financier pumping cash into the company to get it greater exposure, advertising, etc.  But until someone steps up, we gotta work with what we have, and that means either doing something personally, or giving the complaints a rest.  Because nobody gains by sitting around mumbling about how terrible the company is.  Everybody gains if you try to find new players, buy the products that are available, and even try to contribute your own.

 

So its up to us to step up, and if we do, then Hero gains, and there's more cash flow, and more projects like Strike Force and Golden Age Champions can be produced.  Every company takes risks and gambles.  Sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't.  Right now Hero is at a low point -- but not as low as before 5th edition.

[Ninja-Bear]

Also if you mention the terms simpler or basic in reference to Hero system beware of curmudgeon s!