Kit-bashing rules?

[ashuramarsh]

I have found no rules concerning the ability to kit-bash a device. You know, one that the superhero absolutely needs last minute to defeat that villain. This has been a pretty standard staple in comics, especially for the brainiac character like Reed Richards. Yet, the hero system has no rules for this. I've looked, people I play with who have been doing this since the second edition don't know of any either. This is the on place I feel the hero system lacks and since it is supposed to cover superheroes as well as other genres, it lacks something even a simple system like Mutants & Masterminds covers.

 

These are one shot or one session devices and while there are skills like inventor, Mechanics and Electronics and such they are only usefull if you are making long term permanent devices or such.

[Nolgroth]

Variable Power Pool

Creative use of the Power skill

GM fiat

[bigdamnhero]

I've always handled this with a Gadget VPP. Just don't throw on the Limitations for "Can Only Be Changed In A Lab" and so forth. Easy. I've literally seen dozens if not hundreds of characters with that build. What about the VPP rules doesn't work for what you're trying to do?

[Cantriped]

Pretty much what Nolgroth said:

If your character can "kit-bash" devices together which are only useful for one scenario, you either buy a Variable Power Pool (and use it to built whatever device you need), or you use a Skill Roll (such as Inventor, or a Power Skill) with the GM's permission. In a superheroic campaign, devices and abilities obtained through Skill Rolls are usually only usable once; if you want something you can use over and over, you pay points for it.

 

Power Skills and Variable Power Pools are basically written and intended exactly for the purpose you describe. Reed Richards for example is more of a Gadgeteer than anything else, his powers are much less useful to team than his ability to make whatever gadget he needs at the moment. In Hero his Stretching Powers are really cheap, leaving him plenty of points to buy a Gadgeteering VPP and lots of Science Skills.

[Hyper-Man]

I have found no rules concerning the ability to kit-bash a device. You know, one that the superhero absolutely needs last minute to defeat that villain. This has been a pretty standard staple in comics, especially for the brainiac character like Reed Richards. Yet, the hero system has no rules for this. I've looked, people I play with who have been doing this since the second edition don't know of any either. This is the on place I feel the hero system lacks and since it is supposed to cover superheroes as well as other genres, it lacks something even a simple system like Mutants & Masterminds covers.

 

These are one shot or one session devices and while there are skills like inventor, Mechanics and Electronics and such they are only usefull if you are making long term permanent devices or such.

See my rookie Reed Richards in the downloads section for a basic example of how to build this.

 

END  Description   Cost   

The Ultimate Gadgeteer: Variable Power Pool (Gadget Pool), 14 base + 80 control cost, (54 Active Points); Limited Power Technologoy Based Abilities Only (-1/4); all slots OAF Arrangement Fragile (Focus of Opportunity. Uses parts he has on hand to work with.; -1 1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; Jammed, Must be made each Phase/use, Can choose which of two rolls to make from use to use; -1 1/4), Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; -1), Unified Power (-1/4) 20

Notes: This is just an example slot. Reed can come up with almost any needed gadget given the time and something high tech to work with.

 

[12] 1) Transdimensional Gun!: Blast 10d6, Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (75 Active Points); 2 clips of 12 Charges (-0) Real Cost: 12  0

 

HM

[ashuramarsh]

See all this is BUYING a power pool. Kit bashing is not a power pool, it is not intended to be a permanent addition to the character. Also I was not speaking of a gadgeteer, Reed really isn't one of those per se. He doesn't run around with a perment 'utility belt' of gadgets and so forth. Only when he really needs one does he come up with it in the lab. That is what kit-bashing is about, otherwise its just a gadgeteering pool, you have this ability available all the time.

 

That aside the idea of kit-bashing is for people with technical skills but not with the gadgeteering pool.

[Hyper-Man]

Um... did you actually read the build?  It's not a traditional gadget pool.

 

edit

here is a more straightforward version of the same example:
 

Cost    Powers
20 The Ultimate Gadgeteer: Variable Power Pool (Gadget Pool), 14 base + 80 control cost,  (54 Active Points); Limited Power Technology Based Abilities Only (-1/4); all slots OAF Arrangement Fragile (Focus of Opportunity.  Uses parts he has on hand to work with.; -1 1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; Jammed, Must be made each Phase/use, Can choose which of two rolls to make from use to use; -1 1/4), Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; -1), Unified Power (-1/4)

[Notes: This is just an example slot.  Reed can come up with almost any needed gadget given the time and something high tech to work with.]
0    1) Transdimensional Gun!: Blast 10d6, Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (75 Active Points); 2 clips of 12 Charges (-0) Real Cost: 12 - END=[12]

 

It's a 20 real point investment in points that can be thought of as representing his consistently repeatable ability to "super-MacGyver" a situation with the tools at hand.  This is the same cost as Universal Translator and the Universal Scientist ability introduced in one of the APG books (he has this as well since he is acknowledged as one of the smartest people on earth).

 

Any 'sciency' character can probably pull this off one time via the Power Skill.  If the player wants the character to be able to repeat it though they'll need to build something like my posted example though.

 

HM

[Lord Liaden]

See all this is BUYING a power pool. Kit bashing is not a power pool, it is not intended to be a permanent addition to the character. Also I was not speaking of a gadgeteer, Reed really isn't one of those per se. He doesn't run around with a perment 'utility belt' of gadgets and so forth. Only when he really needs one does he come up with it in the lab. That is what kit-bashing is about, otherwise its just a gadgeteering pool, you have this ability available all the time.

 

That aside the idea of kit-bashing is for people with technical skills but not with the gadgeteering pool.

 

Okay, that sounds like you don't expect the character to do this frequently and reliably. If so that is a significantly different scenario than what your first post seemed to imply.   If you want your character to do this only on rare occasions or in extraordinary circumstances, the default approach in Hero is to use the Skill, Power, if that skill has been defined as something like "Gadgeteering" which applies to technology. (You can buy said Skill without having to buy a VPP). You typically roll against your Skill target number with penalties per Active Points in the effect you're trying to create or modify. Other Modifiers to the roll could be taking more time, having or lacking appropriate materials, or whatever else you consider appropriate. Other technical Skills could be Complementary to the Power roll, such as Electronics, Mechanics, Security Systems, Systems Operation, Inventor, Science, etc.

 

Alternatively you could rule that another technical Skill the character has can be the primary one to use in particular cases. For example, part of the description of the Skill, Electronics, is that it allows the character to "hotwire" electronic devices. A GM might allow that hotwiring to be pretty radical with a high enough roll.   Again, other relevant Skills may be Complementary to that roll.

 

If a GM doesn't want to deal with Active Point penalties or calculating the AP of the effect, he's well within her rights to just base the kitbashing attempt on a flat roll regardless of AP.

[steriaca]

See all this is BUYING a power pool. Kit bashing is not a power pool, it is not intended to be a permanent addition to the character. Also I was not speaking of a gadgeteer, Reed really isn't one of those per se. He doesn't run around with a perment 'utility belt' of gadgets and so forth. Only when he really needs one does he come up with it in the lab. That is what kit-bashing is about, otherwise its just a gadgeteering pool, you have this ability available all the time.

 

That aside the idea of kit-bashing is for people with technical skills but not with the gadgeteering pool.

Your overthinking it. Basically, to simulate kit-bashing in Hero, you either need the Power skill (Power: Kit-bashing) and follow the rules for the Power skill like on page 33 of Champions Complete and page 39-40 of the Advance Player's Guide, or a Variable Power Pool like the rules for them on pages 122-123 of Champions Complete. There are no other official way to do it.

 

Kit-bashing is mearly a "special effect" of the character's Variable Power Pool or Power skill. Which is what the Hero System is about, special effects.

[Lord Liaden]

One of the principles of Hero System is, "you get what you pay for." If you want to do something in rare exceptional circumstances, you can improvise using the system mechanics steriaca and I pointed out. If you want to do something frequently and reliably, you pay the Character Points to buy it.

 

 

Kit-bashing is merely a "special effect" of the character's Variable Power Pool or Power skill. Which is what the Hero System is about, special effects.

 

Just so. "Kit-bashing" isn't a specific Hero mechanic, it's a term you choose to define a particular effect you want. You reason from the effect to find the mechanic that best fits it.

[steriaca]

Hopefully the OP is not sowered by the fact that what he is looking for doesn't exist as a separate thing and leaves the system. Hero is an amazing system which can do almost anything, as long as you remember the system is all about Special Effects.

[massey]

Or... you could do it my way.

 

Come to the Dark Side. Give in to your inner cheeseball. Save points, be more powerful.

 

Use Summon.

 

Build your gadget as a vehicle with your same Dex and Speed. Get a 1/5 discount. Then limit the hell out of it.

[bigdamnhero]

See all this is BUYING a power pool. Kit bashing is not a power pool, it is not intended to be a permanent addition to the character.

I'm confused. You want a character to be able to whip up whatever powerful device they need on sort notice, but you don't want to have to pay points for it? You are talking about a supers game, right? Then you pay points for stuff - "I built something" is just the sfx for "I now have this Power." That's typically modeled with a VPP, add Modifiers to taste.

 

BTW with a VPP, you don't necessarily have to keep every one-off invention listed on the character in perpetuity. A lot of players & GMs prefer to have at least some common/typical slots built in advance to speed up play, but that's just a logistical concern. The whole point of a VPP is to let you make up whatever power you need without having to re-spend new points every single time. So I don't understand how that doesn't accomplish what you're trying to do?

 

Also I was not speaking of a gadgeteer, Reed really isn't one of those per se. He doesn't run around with a perment 'utility belt' of gadgets and so forth. Only when he really needs one does he come up with it in the lab. That is what kit-bashing is about, otherwise its just a gadgeteering pool, you have this ability available all the time.

So if I understand correctly, you're defining "gadgeteering" as something that happens in the field; whereas "kit-bashing" is something that only happens in a lab? OK, so then you do buy it with "Only in a Lab," "Takes Minutes/Hours to Change," "Requires Inventor Roll" or whatever other Limitations you feel are appropriate. Congratulations, that's going to drop the cost considerably.

 

That aside the idea of kit-bashing is for people with technical skills but not with the gadgeteering pool.

[shrug] Then call it a "Kit-Bashing Pool" or whatever you like. Or if it's only a once-in-awhile thing, you have Inventor Skill and Power Skill. (IMO the latter is more appropriate for Heroic games where characters don't pay points for equipment, but YMMV.)

 

Honestly, I'm genuinely lost here. Trying to help, but I'm still not clear exactly what you're trying to do that you feel can't be done with the examples people have listed. It sounds to me like maybe you've always seen VPPs played a certain way, but that's not the only way to do it.

 

Maybe you could give us some specific examples of what you want your character to be able to do that can't be done with the different models folks have already posted? Can you think of a specific game instance where you wanted to do X but "the rules didn't let you?"

[massey]

It sounds like you're looking to simulate something that happens in a specific genre.  Since the Hero System is a universal/generic system, you will not find any rule called "kit-bash".  You will need to better explain exactly what you are looking to do, and perhaps we can help.  Also talk to your GM, and tell him what you're effect you're trying to duplicate.  He may have suggestions.  As it is, your explanation so far is not getting your point across.  We are confused as to exactly what you're trying to do.

 

Maybe this will help.  I'll include a few caveats, these are ways that my group would handle this.  Yours may be different.  Also, we play 5th edition, and my 6th ed-Fu is not so strong.

 

The following are ways you can make gadgets in a superhero game in the Hero System:

 

 

Skills only

Inventor 14-

Electronics 14-

Mechanics 14-

Power skill: Gadgetry 14-

Appropriate sciences 14-

 

This type of build will allow you to build and modify gadgets in the game.  It will not let you carry around a blaster pistol, or a force field belt, or any other kind of super item from scratch.  To do that, you'll need one of the other builds.  But this will let you screw with the villain's equipment, figure out how it works, and maybe turn it against him.  Sometimes you can rig up a primitive communicator or other device if you have the right materials.  But unless you've got a high active point machine that you're modifying to do something else, you are quite limited in what you can do.

 

Example:  Star Trek engineers.  They don't carry around unusual (for their century) equipment, but if you give them time and a piece of equipment that already does a thing, they may be able to modify it to do something else.  These function as plot devices that are completely under the control of the GM.  They very well may not work.  They take a lot of time to set up.

 

 

Variable Power Pool

20 point base + 80 point control cost, appropriate limitations and advantages

 

This type of build will allow you to carry around a set of powers that cost 20 real points, any one of which can have up to 80 active points.  Depending upon your limitations (which will affect what type of powers you have available, and in what conditions you can switch them around), this could be something as simple as rerouting energy in your power armor suit, or it can be going back to the lab to work on a new invention.  You could even put a limitation on it that you start every adventure with it "empty", and so you don't have Mr. Inventor running around carrying some standard doohickey all the time -- he's got to go back to the lab and build the thing first.

 

Example:  Dr. Doom usually has some hidden weapons or new features to his armor that nobody has ever seen before.  Every time he shows up, he's got a new thing that he can spring on the heroes.   A character who can always get a needed piece of equipment can be simulated with this.

 

 

Summon

Summon 400 point character, Slavishly Loyal (+1), Increased results group: machines (+1/2)

Extra time: 5 minutes (-2), 1 charge (-2)  Concentrate 1/2 DCV (-1/2)  Requires lab (-1/2)

33 points

 

This works, legally, but a lot of people don't like it.  It caused some controversy when I suggested it before.  I'm gonna include it because I think it works well for this purpose.  What this does is allows a character to bring forward a 400 point thingy when he uses his power.  It appears on the hero's next phase.  He can do it one time per adventure.  This represents some invention that he has been working on, but he has to spend the last few minutes activating the thing/putting the last pieces together/whatever.  Or maybe he's just really smart and can do the whole thing in 5 minutes.  Regardless, this has the potential for abuse because you build a vehicle or robot or something, and you have 400 real points to work with, not active points.  There's the potential for some very high active point powers used by the Summoned critter.  This is good and bad because while it can really represent those "stop the end of the world" inventions, it can also represent those "start the end of the world" inventions.

 

Example:  Silver Age Lex Luthor.  He would often pop out some new city-destroying robot, or a beam that causes the sun to go supernova, things like that.  He'd usually have one per comic, maybe two.  Charges on the power represents the fact that you've got a limited number of these super-inventions ready to go during any one story.

 

 

 

--

 

Look at those and think about what kind of gadgeteer you want your character to be.

[Chris Goodwin]

Kit-bashing could very well be considered a Power Stunt using a Gadgeteering Power Skill.  Back in the day, when Gadgeteering Skill was first introduced, this is exactly how it was defined -- the Gadget Pool, precursor of the Variable Power Pool, was introduced at the same time, and it used the Gadgeteering Skill.  Gadgeteering was also used for things like hot-wiring the alien saucer or getting some extra oomph out of the villain's blaster.  Exactly the sorts of things we use Power Skill for.