Jump to content

Falling off a horse


Steve

Recommended Posts

Yeah, I think velocity damage would count for more than the height. I think for a normal fall I'd treat is as straight V/10* plus maybe 2d6 for the height. For a bucking horse I'd add in the Horse's STR, so basically treat it like a Martial Throw. Historically, even Kings have died from being thrown from their horse, tho that's less common in fiction.

 

* That's 6ed using meters; or v/5 if you're using inches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In FHC, the Unhorse Maneuver (FHC 181) adds the target's velocity/10m (or 5" in 5th edition) to the attacker's strength damage. However the rules for Collisions (FHC 156) have the character take velocity/6m (or 3" in 5th edition) Normal Damage (Up to a maximum of the PD + BODY of the object collided with).

I would be inclined to treat a horse bucking it's rider as an Unhorse Maneuver performed by the Horse against it's Rider. Given that horses often have 25 STR or more, that could be quite deadly at speed. Alternatively you could treat it as a Throw (FHC 178); the damage will be about the same, but if they are thrown far enough they may take additional damage from encountering hazards (such as being thrown onto sharp rocks, off of a cliff).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The difference between an unhorse maneuver and a bucking bronc is that the bronc (unless it stamps on you) is throwing you up and away, not toward anything, so its strength is not directed into the damage.  You'll take a couple dice from the falling distance, but the impact is going to primarily be speed that hurts you (and terrain).  Cowboys can land on their boots and keep going when thrown, although usually end up prone.  An unhorse maneuver is an attack that directly is applying weapon strength against the target in a manner to dismount them, so the strength applies.

 

Its the difference between bouncing off a trampoline and running headlong into a wall.

The reason people would die from being thrown from a horse is velocity+impact+bad landing.  You get thrown off a horse into a tree at 20 mph, that's going to be pretty bad, especially if you hit head first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In ​Fantasy Hero Complete:​  The Unhorse maneuver (FHC 181) doesn't cause damage based upon the weapon being used, even though using a "long weapon" is a requirement to perform the maneuver. The maneuver simply causes Normal Damage based on the STR of the attacker and the current Velocity of the target's mount. The special effect of the STR Damage the horse deals could easily be described as additional velocity from being thrown upwards (since the damage from a Throw is fairly consistent with STR damage anyway).

 

As for the rest of your arguments... Being stomped afterwards would be a separate attack rolled using the horse's STR and Hooves​ (most builds for horses have an HA defined as such), perhaps even as a Multiple Attack performed in the same phase. Similarly, the effects of a "bad-landing" could be represented by rolling Hit-Locations on the effects of the Unhorse (or Throw) maneuver. Likewise, a Cowboy landing on their feet after being bucked would be the result of a successful Breakfall roll (FHC 29), typically by using Breakfall to regain their footing as a zero-phase action; although at the GMs option they could make a Breakfall roll to resist the effects of the Unhorse maneuver as if it were a Throw.

 

Also; I did mention that using the Throw maneuver was an acceptable alternative if the GM wants the horse to buck them for distance instead. The downside being that Throw doesn't account for the mounts velocity like Unhorse or the rules for collisions do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In ​Fantasy Hero Complete:​  The Unhorse maneuver (FHC 181) doesn't cause damage based upon the weapon being used, even though using a "long weapon" is a requirement to perform the maneuver. The maneuver simply causes Normal Damage based on the STR of the attacker and the current Velocity of the target's mount.

But that's still applying the attacker's STR damage as a result of hitting the rider with a weapon; but the horse isn't using its STR to hit the rider, nor is it necessarily adding to the target's velocity relative to the ground. I'm trying to think of a logical real-world reason why being thrown off a Clydesdale at 20mph would be any more damaging than being thrown off a pony doing the same speed. The Clydesdale's higher STR might make it harder for you to hang on, and I guess technically you're 1m or so further from the ground; but aside from that it's all going to be how fast you're going and what you hit. (And how you land, of course.) I'm starting to think straight velocity damage is the way to go.

 

I used to know a few rodeo riders, including bronc & bull riders. But sadly I don't think I still have any in my contacts list for a Subject Matter Expert consult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did state above that using Unhorse was simply my preference, using the rules for Collisions (FHC 156) is also an option.

 

For reference:

Being Unhorsed (FHC 181) by a Light Warhorse (as they are described in ​Champions Complete - Rules for Animal Creation) at Combat Velocity would cause 7d6 Normal Damage (5d6 + (24m/10)d6). If you roll Hit Locations, and the target is struck in the head, you have a very good chance of killing an "Average Person" (with 8 BODY & 16 STUN; FHC 239); dealing an average of 12 BODY & 40 STUN (after Defenses). The target will be Knocked Out for 6 minutes (or 6 Turns with aid), and they will bleed to death in only 4 Turns; potentially faster if the campaign is using the Bleeding optional effect of damage (FHC 187).

Suffering a Collision (FHC 156) as a result of falling off a Light Warhorse (as above) at Combat Velocity would cause 4d6 Normal Damage ((24m/6)d6). Even if you roll Hit Locations, and the target is struck in the head, you have almost no chance of killing an "Average Person" (with 8 BODY & 16 STUN; FHC 239); dealing an average of 6 BODY & 22 STUN (after Defenses). The target will be Knocked Out for 2 Phases (1 Turn at their SPD). Although they will awaken with only 2 BODY remaining, unless the Campaign is using the Bleeding optional effect of damage (FHC 187) there is no particular risk of them dying as a result of their severe injuries, and they will recover completely in about a month and a half.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm trying to think of a logical real-world reason why being thrown off a Clydesdale at 20mph would be any more damaging than being thrown off a pony doing the same speed.

 

 

It wouldn't be, other than perhaps a little more damage from height. The biggest problem with falling off a horse is that not many people train in it.  If you have some tumbling skills and a bit of practice falling from things, you'll be fine (which in Hero terms I guess is breakfall).  Kings didn't have time or inclination to learn such a thing were usually wearing heavy stuff, and fell at speed.  I knew a girl once who fell from a horse on her own out in the woods, bashed her head, and was found hours later with some brain damage. So its not minor damage, but at the same time shouldn't be particularly traumatic to a hero, either.

 

So let's run some numbers.  A horse will gallop at around 40 kph (the fastest is around 88 but they can't do that long and are bred exclusively for speed, so we'll discount King Whatsisface riding a prime quarterhorse for the moment).  The knight's destrier was a burly and big thing, around 18 hands (or about 182cm) so you're about 2m off the ground.

 

In game terms, that's a fall of 2m for 1d6 normal damage

At full mounted velocity with a Speed of 3 for a warhorse, that's around 45m per phase flat out noncombat.

 

King Whatsisface has been drinking from his diamond-crusted flask with the royal seal a bit too much and tips off his loyal steed at full speed. Here are the options:

As a move by, he takes V/10 (4½d6) damage plus 1d6 from falling, for a total of 5½d6 damage.  Average stun 19, average body 5.

As a move through, he takes V/6 (6½d6) damage plus 1d6 from falling, for 7½d6 total. Average stun 26, average body 7.

If you add the warhorse's 28 STR (we'll use a medium warhorse from the Bestiary) that's another 5½d6 added to each attack: 38 stun and 11 body/45 stun and 13 body

 

The move by without strength will ring his bell pretty badly, but unless he hits something that turns the damage into killing his PD should soak enough of that to be a minor injury of around 2-3 body.  Wearing armor, he's likely to get up and walk away unless he landed on his head and takes double stun and body and could be in real trouble, particularly if that combines with a killing surface where his PD does nothing about the body.  With strength will put him out for a long time and deal serious body damage, killing him instantly with a head blow.

 

The Move Through does enough stun to possibly knock him out, and a few more body so internal injuries might result and bleeding could kill him if not discovered in time.  With Strength he's probably just dead, particularly from a head blow.  13 body puts him close to or under 0 depending what shape the old fellow is in, and he'll bleed out within a couple minutes.

 

With this info, I'm inclined to treat it as a Strengthless moveby/unhorse maneuver adjusted by terrain.  Maybe a die or two to fall on rocky ground, maybe a die or two off if the ground is soft or marshy.

 

Incidentally, as anyone who has horses or rides them will tell you: they are dangerous.  You have no protection, nothing holding you in, and horses are not very smart animals.  They are prone to sudden, unpredictable frights (is that rock a cougar!???) and whims, outweigh you by several factors, and can be mean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a move by, he takes V/10 (4½d6) damage plus 1d6 from falling, for a total of 5½d6 damage.  Average stun 19, average body 5.

As a move through, he takes V/6 (6½d6) damage plus 1d6 from falling, for 7½d6 total. Average stun 26, average body 7.

If you add the warhorse's 28 STR (we'll use a medium warhorse from the Bestiary) that's another 5½d6 added to each attack: 38 stun and 11 body/45 stun and 13 body

[quibble] If we used straight Move By rules, only half the horse's STR counts, so 14 STR would only add another 2½d6 for 8d6. Otherwise your math looks sound to me.

 

Thinking about different approaches we might take: Falling characters take 1d6 per 2m/Segment of velocity. Assuming 3 SPD, 45m per Phase works out to 11m per Segment so that would be 5½d6, the same as a Move By w/o STR. Call it the equivalent of getting punched by an 18 STR brick with +2 DCs worth of martial arts or something - it'll hurt, but even a head shot is unlikely to be fatal.

 

Knockback also does 1d6 per 2m, and while that's technically based on distance not velocity, in practice Xm distance of KB is the same as saying Xm/Phase velocity. So basically it comes out same as above, tho per KB rules if you're not thrown into a wall or tree you only take 1/2 damage, so barely 2½d6. That's too trivial to even mention IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you will pardon the pun, why not get the rules straight from the horse's mouth?

 

From The Ultimate Skill:

 

Falling from a ground based mount is roughly like performing a Move Trough on the ground — the character takes the mount’s velocity divided by three (v/3) in dice of Normal Damage. He may make a Breakfall roll, at -1 per 2d6, to take only half damage (or no damage, if he makes the roll by half). (At the GM’s option, Riding may serve as a Complementary Skill.) If the mount was standing still, the character takes 2d6 Normal Damage from the fall.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you will pardon the pun, why not get the rules straight from the horse's mouth?

 

From The Ultimate Skill:

Hero System Skills says the exact same thing... which is funny because Steve Long must have forgotten to change the dividend to v/6 when he copy-pasted that material for the 6th edition version of those rules (in 6th edition, Move Through became v/6m instead of v/3"). This is mechanically identical to used the rules for Collisions from FHC I cited above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's an added twist: the weight carried should add to falling damage in any form, from a horse or not.  Encumbrance should add to falling damage in other words.

One way to handle it is to treat the burden carried as the strength it requires to lift, so if someone is carrying 100kg of extra stuff on their bodies (weapons, armor, potions, anvils...) it deals 2d6 extra damage when they hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I don't necessarially disagree, it is a lot of extra complexity to add to the game, and I'm unsure it would actually increase the fun.

You should only be at risk of being crushed by equipment that lands on top you when you land... for example, items carried in a backpack if you land face first. In addition, such a condition should be causing separate dice of crushing damage (applied against your PD separately), not being added to your falling damage, and such crushing damage should still be limited by the PD+BODY of the objects crushing you. Since technically those items were falling too, you just happened to land first. Naturally, anything you land on should also be taking the appropriate amount of damage. Implementing such a system would generally increase the total damage taken slightly, result in a lot of broken foci, and significantly increase the amount of time required to calculate the damage of a fall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Encumbrance is tied to STR tho, which means the impact of, say, a 75kg load would do +4d6 to someone with 10 STR, but only 1d6 to someone with 20 STR. Doesn't make much sense. Besides, the whole point of riding a horse is that the horse is usually the one carrying the excess weight, which means most of mounted characters' Encumbrance is going to be in the form of armor. I'm okay saying armor doesn't subtract from fall damage, but having it add to damage seems a bit too much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Encumbrance is tied to STR tho, which means the impact of, say, a 75kg load would do +4d6 to someone with 10 STR, but only 1d6 to someone with 20 STR. Doesn't make much sense. 

 

 

That's a good point.  But yes, wearing armor would actually increase the damage from a fall.  Armor doesn't protect well from that kind of thing (unless its really padded armor), in fact the harder and more protective armor is, the less it helps in a fall period (it will help protect from things you land on like rocks, but not the impact overall).  But all that weight increases the impact.

 

However, I have a house rule that well-distributed weight such as body armor is treated as half its weight while worn for purposes of encumbrance, and I would be willing to treat it that way for falling damage as well.  But that sword and the backpack with 80 pounds of gear and all the rest just makes you crash down harder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What would you think about having the horse fall on you? I've seen where the horse falls and traps the rider, sometimes breaking the rider's leg.

 

If it was an encumbered horse (like one wearing barding), I could see some major damage occurring to the rider.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...