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GMPCs


Shadow7

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Howdy all, 

 

When I started my recent campaign I added a hero to the group of PCs because they were all new to the rules.  Just wondering how many GMs or campaigns you have been involved in actually use GMPCs?  This would be an NPC hero who is used for more than just in a scene or two, but actually counted as a member of the group of PCs and acts as a PC hero (although the character is controlled by the GM).  Just curious to see what positive or negative experiences if any people have had with them.  I know some people don't like them, while other people don't mind.  I know for myself, I actually enjoy it since it gives me a chance to join the PCs in some of the action as a PC hero.  It also adds to the number of heroes that we have in the PC heroes group, 5 heroes which is a better number for me than 4 heroes.  What do other people think?  Thanks!

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Shadow, I've done the same thing, using a GMPC to teach game mechanics. I slowly phased the character out as the players gained experience. I typically do not enjoy them, as I have plenty to do on the other side of the screen. I feel like I short change my players if I divert my attention too much.

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Shadow, I've done the same thing, using a GMPC to teach game mechanics. I slowly phased the character out as the players gained experience. I typically do not enjoy them, as I have plenty to do on the other side of the screen. I feel like I short change my players if I divert my attention too much.

 

Beat me to it. 

I also don't like them once the group has gained an identity, it feels like they "steal the spotlight". 

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I use them quite often to help work with the players as part of a team, often supplementing their own skills and abilities. During combat, I often hand the GMPC over to another player to use in a tactical sense, while in non-combat situations, I use them to help the plot, or create interesting RP opportunities for my players. For example: I have a character that was once a pro-wrestler who now serves the team as their resident brick. The team's martial artist, a PC, has formed a bond with the character and often trains with him to better herself (since he can take a hit or two). Alternatively, I have a nature controller that's a scientist in his secret identity. The PC scientist of the team often talks with him, and uses him to consult during research, often lending some help on rolls (via complementary skills) when needed. 

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I frequently run GMPCs in Pathfinder in order to fill a role nobody wanted to play, give me a voice in the party, or act as a babysitter and keep the party on task (or all of the above). Also... since I am ususally the GM, I almost never get to actually play anymore, and having a GMPC is the next best thing. I can always find a reason to phase them out when the party outgrows them.

I can't say that I've ever run a GMPC in Hero though.

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I've been in games where I co-ran the world with one or more other GMs. When we each had ideas, we'd take over for awhile. Our PC's generally didn't disappear or find reasons to be otherwise occupied when we were the GM, so  during those times the were...the dreaded GMPC!

 

Other instances involve things like Cantriped mentions: there was a role needed for the campaign that none of the players chose to take. If that lack later got covered, then the GMPC faded into the background.

 

Long and short, it can, and does work. The bad side of things is when the GM makes a character that they just want to show off with - "Look at me!  Look how great I am! Look how much crap you guys wouldn't survive/figure out/win if I weren't here!" Those need to go the way of the dodo.

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Caveat:  I hesitate to use GMPCs very often, because it feels like I'm stealing the spotlight from the players.  And as to feeling the need to play myself, I figure I'm running a whole slew of NPCs, so I get more than my share of face time.

 

I've used a few NPC heroes repeatedly, mainly to fill roles nobody else wanted to fill.  (For instance, a prior Champions campaign had no PC hero with mystic knowledge.  So any time they ran across something magical, they called on Rubicon, a local NPC mystic hero.)  However, such NPCs typically aren't part of the team so much as they're recurring consultants, so I don't know if you'd count them as GMPCs.

 

One exception to this has been the sidekick hero, which I've only done twice.  Being far underpowered as compared to the PC heroes, there's not much chance of one stealing the spotlight.  But it does give the GM a chance to add his/her voice to the direction of the game.

 

Another exception is the recurring irritant.  In my campaigns, it's Major Justice.  He's a flying brick whose very black-and-white legal outlook doesn't mesh with the PCs, but he kept trying to join their teams anyway.  I had a lot of fun the first time he appeared, as the PCs called various other hero groups to which Major Justice had belonged previously, often under other names.

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Caveat: I hesitate to use GMPCs very often, because it feels like I'm stealing the spotlight from the players. And as to feeling the need to play myself, I figure I'm running a whole slew of NPCs, so I get more than my share of face time.

 

I've used a few NPC heroes repeatedly, mainly to fill roles nobody else wanted to fill. (For instance, a prior Champions campaign had no PC hero with mystic knowledge. So any time they ran across something magical, they called on Rubicon, a local NPC mystic hero.) However, such NPCs typically aren't part of the team so much as they're recurring consultants, so I don't know if you'd count them as GMPCs.

 

One exception to this has been the sidekick hero, which I've only done twice. Being far underpowered as compared to the PC heroes, there's not much chance of one stealing the spotlight. But it does give the GM a chance to add his/her voice to the direction of the game.

 

Another exception is the recurring irritant. In my campaigns, it's Major Justice. He's a flying brick whose very black-and-white legal outlook doesn't mesh with the PCs, but he kept trying to join their teams anyway. I had a lot of fun the first time he appeared, as the PCs called various other hero groups to which Major Justice had belonged previously, often under other names.

You stated things much better than I did. I'm like you concerning friendly/helpful NPC's. To me a GMPC is a full time member of the team, and like you I feel the GM has enough of the spotlight in normal play.

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Last Champions game I was in we had rotating GMs. Me and another fella. We took turns running/playing.

 

When we were running we always came up with an excuse for our PCs to be out of action. Once the GMPC had been captured in the previous scenario and the adventure was a rescue. Another time my character said he couldn't help because he was watching a Sally Jesse Raphael marathon.

 

Basically we kept away from the GMPC. As others have said it draws spotlight from the players and has too much room to go... poorly.

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I used an NPC in this capacity only once, with a group composed entirely of RPG newbies, and it served a couple of purposes:

 

1. Gave the group a little bit of extra firepower in combat. It helped smooth out the lack of tactical expertise in the group.

 

2. Gave the group a source of information/advice if they got stuck at some point in the plot. It helped to get the group moving forward again at times.

 

3. Helped the players feel a little less like I was their adversary in the game.

 

This NPC allowed me to give them guidance/healing/resources, from time to time, within the context of the game world. When they were fully engaged in the action and coming up with their own plans and executing them, this NPC pretty much faded entirely into the background and went largely unnoticed. And when this NPC eventually turned on them at a critical point in the plot, it taught the group the valuable lesson of, "Be careful who you bring into the party."

 

(P.S. I've never used the term GMPC though, as the standard term NPC means exactly the same thing.)

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(P.S. I've never used the term GMPC though, as the standard term NPC means exactly the same thing.)

I consider the GMPC to be a subtype of NPC which except for being controlled by the GM otherwise follows all the same rules the PCs do. For example, they are generally built using the same rules as the PCs (in terms of point values/levels), they gain experience like players, live and die like players, only know what they've experienced (as opposed to knowing whatever you need them to), and interact with (other) NPCs like players (which might make you look a little crazy). In a D&D style adventuring group, GMPCs claim a share of the wealth, as opposed to being hirelings paid a fixed wage.

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Heh. That sounds a lot like what happens when a GM takes his favorite PC and pulls it into his own campaign as an NPC, taking meticulous care to keep their XP and wealth levels updated as if they were still a Player and not the GM. I know that's not precisely what you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that's how this notion first found expression.

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I consider the GMPC to be a subtype of NPC which except for being controlled by the GM otherwise follows all the same rules the PCs do. For example, they are generally built using the same rules as the PCs (in terms of point values/levels), they gain experience like players, live and die like players, only know what they've experienced (as opposed to knowing whatever you need them to), and interact with (other) NPCs like players (which might make you look a little crazy). In a D&D style adventuring group, GMPCs claim a share of the wealth, as opposed to being hirelings paid a fixed wage.

 

Actually, NPCs with powers in my game typically gain XP just like the PCs.  Well, incarcerated villains gain XP at half the rate as PCs, so there's still a benefit to locking them away even if it's not permanent.  And I typically* build the NPC villains to the same general point level as the PCs.

 

* There are exceptions, such as the mastermind villain who generally has 50-100 points more than his underlings.  Or the big bad (like Mechanon) whose point total blows the PCs out of the water, but is designed to take on the team single-handed.

 

To me, the GMPC is differentiated from other NPCs by the GM's attitude and the way he's played.  Shows up in every scenario?  Has to have his moment in the spotlight?  Does the GM get upset if something bad happens to the character?  Probably a GMPC.

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Never used one in 40 years of GMing. Frankly never understood the point. I create the game world, outline the plots, and direct the actions of literally every character in that world except for 5. That's enough control and "voice" in the story for me. That's not to say there aren't recurring NPC allies that pop up now and again when the plot needs them to. But they're not "my PCs" any more than any other NPC.

 

On the other side of the screen, I've only played in a couple games where the GM introduced GMPCs, which had a strong tendency towards Mary Sue-ism and mainly served to distract the GM's attention from GMing in my experience.

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Howdy all, 

 

When I started my recent campaign I added a hero to the group of PCs because they were all new to the rules.  Just wondering how many GMs or campaigns you have been involved in actually use GMPCs?  This would be an NPC hero who is used for more than just in a scene or two, but actually counted as a member of the group of PCs and acts as a PC hero (although the character is controlled by the GM).  Just curious to see what positive or negative experiences if any people have had with them.  I know some people don't like them, while other people don't mind.  I know for myself, I actually enjoy it since it gives me a chance to join the PCs in some of the action as a PC hero.  It also adds to the number of heroes that we have in the PC heroes group, 5 heroes which is a better number for me than 4 heroes.  What do other people think?  Thanks!

 

As we have multiple GM's in the campaign, we use a combination of NPCs, GMPCs and using our heroes as NPC's as the GM when we feel like it. It has not taken away anything from the heroes. For us, it's a wonderful addition to the scenario - it just took a long time to figure out how to do that. Like any NPC, the GM has to be careful not to take the spotlight away from the players. For us, using the combination has been successful and led to many fun times, including romances and even marriages in game. GMs are there to make sure the players have fun, not to hog the glory. However, in the course of running/directing the game, we've been able to add NPC/GMPC/PCs while GM'ing.

 

I'm glad to say it still works for us after all these years.

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For me if the team lacks coverage that cannot be met by regular NPC's, I'd rather go with a troop play NPC.

Can you elaborate on "troop play?" I think I have an idea what you mean, but I'd like to hear you describe how it works for you.

 

As we have multiple GM's in the campaign, we use a combination of NPCs, GMPCs and using our heroes as NPC's as the GM when we feel like it.

Yeah, I can see where rotating GMs would make that necessary.

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Can you elaborate on "troop play?" I think I have an idea what you mean, but I'd like to hear you describe how it works for you.

 

 

 

Troop play is a character that is controlled by the entire group depending of who is free.  If the group is missing a key skill you can add an NPC to fill the gap.  But instead of the GM running the NPC, the players do, especially if the NPC remains for several sessions. 

 

I wonder if he means troup play, in the Lion Rampant/White Wolf sense of the term.

 

Haven't thought of WW stuff in years, I was introduced to and forever driven away from it in the mid 80's.  The prereq to play was wearing heavy long coats in the 100 degree heat and not bathing while running around talking about Bruhahah or some such.    Really really bad experiences with that crowd. 

 

Never heard of Lion Rampant. 

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Lion Rampant was the company that became White Wolf. Their flagship game was Ars Magica, and it established the formal notion of troup play wherein the entire group served simultaneously as players and GMs, co-guiding the campaign together. This concept was subsequently carried into the World of Darkness games.

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As a player I hate the GMPC. As a GM, knowing how much I hate them as a player I don't use them. An occasional team up with a hero every now and then is fine, but nothing with any regularity. If a niche is missing, I design adventures that don't require that niche. I make sure to use the skill sets the players have to solve the probelms.

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I actually don't really mind the GMPC, as long as it is done reasonably. As GM, if the campaign I'm planning needs to have someone in the group who deals with mentallism, but the players all have different concepts, then I'll make a member to cover that base, but I tend to follow certain practices:

 

  1. No munchkining their powers
  2. No trying to avoid things that would be bad for the GNPC, but are common things that would happen to the players themselves
  3. No using him or her to railroad the story, at best occasional "hey, what about..." where there is a thing so obvious that it hadn't occured to me that the players wouldn't notice it
  4. Like PCs, the GNPC must have weak areas THAT WOULD COME UP IN GAME PLAY
  5. No using him or her to present plans(see 3 above) BUT, he could take a particular player's side in planning, saying, 'hey, that's a good idea, I'm with him' with the explicit understanding among the group that when he does so, this does not mean the GM thinks it's a good idea, the GM might know it's a horrible idea
  6. He must have characterization that contributes to the story as a supporting character, and his actions ALWAYS must come from that characterization

I had one, for a few games I ran for a single player while I was relearning the system. Brother Black, a street level detective, had some body armor, night clubs, smoke grenades, he had a lot of skills, which meant he was spread thin, but I intended to play him as tactically smart.

 

The player's first meeting with him was when three thugs, two with guns, were trying to trap the player. The player was a sort of low powered spiderman type character, humorous, low level superhuman in hth, but with teleportation powers for quick movement instead of web slinging.

 

Brother Black stepped in to help, but the player thought he might be part of the group, so the player teleported to the top of a building and watched the ensuing combat. This was also a bit tricksterish, in the player's conception of the character.

 

Brother Black had to toss out smoke grenades to obscure himself from gunfire, the player saw Brother Black pull out his night sticks and go into the smoke, heard a set of thunks(as did the other thugs), then heard gunshots. The thug with the gun rolled obscenely well, so the player heard Brother Black grunt(his body armor absorbed most of it, fortunately), then a struggle, followed by two more thunks.

 

At the end, the player teleported in, seized the one remaining thug, and teleported back to the rooftop, as I recall.

 

Brother Black's function was, since he had a lot of area knowledge, he would be a means to learn about the game world, while the player actually had his own knowledge that Brother Black didn't(knowledge from the background the player made for the character), and provided a friend in arms so that I wouldn't have to do rather unbelievable things if the player got stunned or KOed in a situation.

 

In that scenario, he took a bullet, he dealt with two thugs but not without hitch, while still showing his tactical sense. And the player got to play out his characterization, and actually come out of the situation in the best position.

 

I find player spotlight to be more a factor of whether I have put opportunities in the game for them to use the character they have built than by leaving the world bereft of anything or anyone they cannot concievably take out, but the GMPC should be no more powerful than they are, and should have no more opportunities to shine than they, and those opportunities should be concurrent with the players shining as much as possible. That's in my game of course, everyone has their own approach and preference.

 

That said, there will also be NPCs in the world that, compared to what the PCs can currently do, appear to effectively be Mary Sues, and the players should have the good sense to know that if they choose combat as their default solution to all problems, and ignore the evidence that there are people that they are seeking to one day be on a par with, but aren't as of yet, they are going to lose sometimes. BUT, and this is a big thing for me, such NPCs will not be GNPCs, because why would the gajillion point character be teaming up with the low point ones?

 

There have been a few occasions where players attacked people that they really should have known better than to have attacked where I did use more powerful NPCs to save them. In one case, they also sent them to a far off city on a ship, and, in that fantasy game, I had to quickly switch gears to a 'lost ship on a haunted sea' game story, only long after, when the characters were on a higher power level, having the story return to the city that was initially where I planned the whole game to be before the previously low-powered characters made high powered, highly connected and numerous enemies.

 

I think key is avoiding thinking of anything an NPC manages as some sort of reward for me, and in making the character spotlight be based on the actions they make, for good or ill, not making the spotlight a reward for playing that is automatic and involves them always being on top. Sometimes, fleeing the fruits of their actions makes fun opportunities for further adventures that my original plan as GM had not included, and other times, their cleverness will resolve my bigger story arc much sooner than I intended. The GNPC should not get in the way of either. If the whole party is KOed, the GNPC is likely KOed with them, unless it was all bad rolls on an epic scale, then I might use the GNPC to get them out, but not completely out, and the act would leave the GNPC largely exhausted and useless for the next phase, so that the players themselves have to plan out their next epic move and figure out how to drag the GNPC with them in heroic fashion.

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Just about any character can evolve into a GMPC. I find that ones I've firmly established personality and backgrounds for are the ones most in danger of that evolution. My solution, which I have been told works, is that I deliberately keep the GMPC out of combat and use them almost exclusively for color commentary. The one time I did let one into combat, I believe I designated one of the players as the puppeteer for that character. I've also used descriptive combat, where the NPC just happened to finish off the bad guy he was facing just as the rest of the party was overcoming theirs. 

 

I grow attached to any NPC that I have spent time developing. Having others handle the combat is a great way to keep that affection from clouding my sense of fairness.

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