Mook Disarmament - Transform vs Dispel?

[doccowie]

Good Morning, all,

 

I was looking at a power based on the special effect of "Rendering All Explosive Compounds in an Area Inert". Obviously this is a fairly powerful ability designed to neutralize firearms and explosives, but I have got a bit stuck.

 

Plan A - Transform. That's what's actually happens, isn't it? Transform Explosive Compounds into Inert Equivalent - Major Transform, Area Effect, Limited Target Group etc. 

         

But this seems to break the cardinal rule of Hero - design from effect!

 

Plan B - Dispel Firearm Attacks - Area Effect, Improved Target Group, Cumulative etc.

 

Would this work against a gang of agents each carrying a submachine gun?

What about if they were each carrying different sorts of guns?

What if they were carrying two guns - would all the guns be affected, or just one of each?

OK, what if it targeted someone with a multipower with a bunch of different guns with different effects (RKA w AP/Explosive/+ Stun modifier etc, etc)?

 

Thanks in advance...

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Have to think which power is better. Now as to second question, yes it would effect all powers with special.effect firearm as long as its in the area effect and the power is strong enough to transform/dispel the gun.

[Surrealone]

All modern small arms ammunition, today, relies on explosive compounds -- specifically in the primers used to ignite the powder ... and in the powder, itself, that propels a projectile from the barrel once ignited.  Thus, I would expect all modern small arms ammunition to be affected ... which means I would also expect all small arms that use such ammunition to be affected.

 

This is important because it does NOT mean all guns would be affected.  As an example: a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range is a gun -- one that doesn't rely on modern small arms ammunition, at all, as it's an energy-based sci-fi weapon.  Thus, it shouldn't be impacted.

 

In the case of someone carrying multiple firearms (different from guns, as 'firearms' implies the use of explosive whereas 'guns' does not -- since an energy weapon typically isn't a 'firearm'), I would expect all ammunition for each firearm to be affected unless the attacker specifically targeted one firearm using the focus targeting rules, in which case I would expect only the ammunition within that firearm to be affected.  This would, of course, imply that the owner of the affected weapon could ditch the ammunition that had been in the firearm -- and load a fresh set of it to recover.  (i.e. S/he could change magazines, re-charge/rack the weapon, and then be good to go -- since only the weapon had been targeted and, thus, only the ammunition within it affected -- meaning the spare magazines s/he carried on his/her person would be unaffected.  S/he might not know to do this, but it's pretty standard practice to drop a magazine to clear a malfunction such as a firearm going 'click' when it should go 'bang', and I'd expect someone with the appropriate Weapon Familiarity to know to do this.)

 

In the case of a firearm with a multipower (i.e. firearm with multiple functions -- such as a M16 rifle with an under-barrel M40 grenade launcher), I would expect behavior identical to the previous case  ... i.e. all chemical-based ammunition would be toast if the person were targeted, but ONLY the ammunition within the firearm would be toast if the focus, itself, were targeted -- for ALL functions of the firearm that relied on explosive materials. (i.e. Reloading the firearm with unaffected ammunition on the firearm owner's person would work to recover ... if the weapon were specifically targeted using focus targeting rules -- but would likely need to be done for each function of the firearm -- taking more time for a full reload using the M16 w/ M40 grenade launcher example, since it has 2 functions.)

 

In the case of a VPP or multipower representing multiple firearms, again, all small arms ammunition on the defender with the VPP or multipower would be affected UNLESS a specific firearm was targeted using the focus targeting rules, in which case the VPP points or multipower slot representing what was targeted would become unusable ... until such time as  unless the firearm represented by the VPP points or multipower slot were reloaded with unaffected ammunition, as above.

 

Keep in mind that reloading in combat generally requires Charges bought as 'Clips' (which really should be called 'magazines' to be technically correct) ... unless a buddy happens to have a spare magazine with matching caliber ammunition s/he can lend you ... or a downed member of your opposition happens to have a magazine of matching caliber ammunition you can scavenge.

  

Now, as to which power is more appropriate -- I'd use Dispel to model Magneto disassembling a firearm at range (or just flipping the safety 'on') ... and Transform to model Chemical King preventing the catalyzation of chemical reactions in explosives such that ammunition didn't function.  The key difference in thinking, here, is that something affected by Dispel can be fixed (i.e. the firearm can be reassembled) given appropriate materials, knowledge, and time ... whereas that's not necessarily true of something affected by Transform.

[doccowie]

Wow, thanks for this impressive analysis. I agree with your point about the effect on multiple firearms - it's certainly what I would be looking to achieve

In fact, one of the major reasons I went with Dispel was my concern that Transform would be inappropriately cheesy - you know, technically I could cast Transform to convert the air around someone's head into cyanide, or phosphorous - but in fact the effect I am looking for (NND Killing Attack, or Explosive Blast) are better modeled by other Powers, with "transform" being a special effect.

I also wonder if the Transform power would be too cheap for the effect.

 

I see your point about reversing the Dispel, I thought that requiring appropriate materials/knowledge/time would be covered by needing to find appropriate ammo and reload the weapon?

.

If I WAS to go with Dispel rather than Transform would a simple Dispel Firearms be adequate? Would I have to have affect multiple Powers simultaneously, or would that be covered by the area effect? My concern about Dispel is that it could be too expensive for the effect...

[Surrealone]

I see your point about reversing the Dispel, I thought that requiring appropriate materials/knowledge/time would be covered by needing to find appropriate ammo and reload the weapon?

.

If I WAS to go with Dispel rather than Transform would a simple Dispel Firearms be adequate? Would I have to have affect multiple Powers simultaneously, or would that be covered by the area effect? My concern about Dispel is that it could be too expensive for the effect...

Well, the catch with the need to find appropriate ammo and reload the weapon is that it might be immediately on-hand ... in the form of a spare magazine that's on the targeted person .. something that wouldn't be covered by 'Dispel Firearms' as 'Dispel Firearms' is something I would expect to ONLY work on Firearms and not on magazines full of ammo that are on or about the targeted person carrying the firearms.  I would think 'Dispel Chemical-Based Ammunition' would be closer to your stated goal ... as it would affect all ammunition (of all types, whether for a firearm, for a M40 grenade launcher, or for a smoke grenade) on the person ... whether in a firearm or not ... unless you specifically targeted a firearm/focus containing chemical-based ammunition using the focus targeting rules.

 

But this begs the question: If Dispel basically turns the chemical-based ammunition 'off' ... how does one turn it back 'on' (without necessarily replacing it)?  Taking it back to a lab, disassembling it, and replacing bad primers, powder, etc. with good primers, powder, etc. via a reloading press is the obvious answer  ... but wow that's a lot of effort to overcome a power that's 3 CP per 1d6 (before application of any advantages -- such as Expanded Effect).  This is why I, personally, prefer Transform to model what you're after ... as I feel the higher cost better represents the difficulty of repairing what's been broken by the Dispel (or turning back 'on' what was turned 'off' by the Dispel).

 

I tend to prefer Dispel for things that are a nuisance from which to recover ... like Dispel Electronic Devices ... which is overcome by flipping the circuit breaker on such devices ... or rebooting them, or toggling the switch for them off and then back on.  (i.e. Something simple, easy, and near-immediate to do in combat.)  In this case, you've proposed changing the fundamental nature of the chemical compounds in explosives such that they are rendered inert.  That seems much more like Transform than Dispel to me -- likely a Major Transform. 

 

CAVEAT:

When it comes to these sort of things, I strongly recommend talking with your GM to determine if s/he'll permit the power in his/her game and, if so, which approach (Dispel or Transform) is best ... and hash out the rationale as to why.  If you are the GM, then it's really up to your good judgment.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Would this work against a gang of agents each carrying a submachine gun?

 

 

You'd have to buy it as dispel RKA, but sure.  Transform works fine as well, it would make the guns not work too.  And you could define it how you wanted (do the bullets become inert or the guns nonfunctional?) because I'd probably call a bullet transform minor if it changed the gunpowder into cornmeal mush or something.  They could still be reloaded and used later.

 

You could even use stuff like entangle (guns are unavailable) or KA (guns are destroyed) and dispel Body could shatter the guns.  

[Surrealone]

You'd have to buy it as dispel RKA, but sure.  

Christopher,

That's not entirely true.  Check out the Expanded Effect advantage associated with Dispel.  (For a +2 Advantage, all powers of a given special effect can be Dispelled.  That's the max, of course; lesser levels of this Advantage can be used to reduce the number of affected powers, if more granularity is desired.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Good point, thanks for bringing that up, it helps with some builds

[bigdamnhero]

I was thinking Expanded Effect too, but I can't think of any gunpowder-powered firearms that aren't built as RKAs, so it might not be necessary. In fact if you go with Dispel RKA, then Only vs Gunpowder Weapons" probably qualifies as a Limitation.

 

Dispel vs Transform: The rules for Dispelling Foci (6e2 p195) says that Dispel can be used to "break" items that then need some minor repairs. In this case, the ammo itself isn't repairable, but the weapon clearly is ("Hey Bob, throw me a fresh clip!") so I think Dispel would be kosher here. I also think it makes more sense for the attack to work against the weapon's AP (which reflects, among other things, how much powder is there); Transform would work against the BODY of the weapon, which feels less relevant to me.

 

My concern about Dispel is that it could be too expensive for the effect...

You're completely removing the primary attacks of everyone in the Area of Effect - that should be expensive IMO.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Just a teleport vs others area effect accurate selective only affects firearms would work too: bamf, no guns any more, they're all in a pile here.  Slap indirect on it, and you can teleport their ammunition away.

[dsatow]

I was thinking Expanded Effect too, but I can't think of any gunpowder-powered firearms that aren't built as RKAs, so it might not be necessary. In fact if you go with Dispel RKA, then Only vs Gunpowder Weapons" probably qualifies as a Limitation.

 

Rubber Bullets, Certain Tranq Darts, Possibly Tracer Rounds, Possibly Incendiary Rounds, Flares

[bigdamnhero]

Rubber Bullets, Certain Tranq Darts, Possibly Tracer Rounds, Possibly Incendiary Rounds, Flares

I think most tranq rifles use compressed air rather than gunpowder. But good catch on the other ones.

[Surrealone]

I think most tranq rifles use compressed air rather than gunpowder. But good catch on the other ones.

The rifles used by pros for wild animal tranquilization beyond pistol ranges generally use .22 cal blanks.  Here's one, for example (check the 'features' tab in the 'description' block): http://shop.pneudart.com/cartridge-fired/model-196-projector/

[doccowie]

Thanks all!

 

This is a character whose built around being able to rebuild atoms into different molecules - can't create new elements, but can mix them around. Now, for all you physicists out there, I get that requires a whole bunch of energy transfers, but you know what - it's a superpower.

(He also has a bunch of psych lims against just rearranging peoples' brain chemistry, before you suggest that as a quicker option).

 

So, I'm happy with Expanded Effect (All Powers Based on Chemical Energy) - happy to limit to RKAs and Blasts. What sort of + would you reckon?

The issue of Dispel being fixed by someone else with the same weapon outside the area lobbing someone new ammo to reload - I'm very happy with that, it's only the ammo in the area that's trashed.

What about Multiple Powers Simultaneous advantage? Do I need that - specifically what if:

 

1) Five mooks each with the same shotgun (I reckon Area Effect covers this)

2) Four mooks, each with the same shotgun but one is carrying two shotguns? Does the Dispel just affect one weapon on each person? So, if they all give their guns to one person, only one gets Dispelled?

3) What if each mook has a different gun?

4) An agent with an assault rifle that uses a multipower (you know, single shot, autofire, underslung grenade launcher - that sort of thing). Does it just affect one power in the multipower?

 

You see, from the description of Dispel, I'd be thinking maybe you need +4 - it affects all powers simultaneously on an individual. And along with the Area Effect, the Expanded Effect, the cumulative, I'd be hard pressed to get more than a couple of d6. And with most guns having an AP of, at least 30, it's going to take a couple of full turns to have much of an actual game effect.

Ironically, in most cases it looks like it would be much quicker to disable the wielders than the guns :- (

 

Done via Transform, it's WAY cheaper, but I worry it breaks the "If there are two ways to create an effect, go with the more expensive one".

[massey]

Thanks all!

 

This is a character whose built around being able to rebuild atoms into different molecules - can't create new elements, but can mix them around. Now, for all you physicists out there, I get that requires a whole bunch of energy transfers, but you know what - it's a superpower.

(He also has a bunch of psych lims against just rearranging peoples' brain chemistry, before you suggest that as a quicker option).

 

So, I'm happy with Expanded Effect (All Powers Based on Chemical Energy) - happy to limit to RKAs and Blasts. What sort of + would you reckon?

The issue of Dispel being fixed by someone else with the same weapon outside the area lobbing someone new ammo to reload - I'm very happy with that, it's only the ammo in the area that's trashed.

What about Multiple Powers Simultaneous advantage? Do I need that - specifically what if:

 

1) Five mooks each with the same shotgun (I reckon Area Effect covers this)

2) Four mooks, each with the same shotgun but one is carrying two shotguns? Does the Dispel just affect one weapon on each person? So, if they all give their guns to one person, only one gets Dispelled?

3) What if each mook has a different gun?

4) An agent with an assault rifle that uses a multipower (you know, single shot, autofire, underslung grenade launcher - that sort of thing). Does it just affect one power in the multipower?

 

You see, from the description of Dispel, I'd be thinking maybe you need +4 - it affects all powers simultaneously on an individual. And along with the Area Effect, the Expanded Effect, the cumulative, I'd be hard pressed to get more than a couple of d6. And with most guns having an AP of, at least 30, it's going to take a couple of full turns to have much of an actual game effect.

Ironically, in most cases it looks like it would be much quicker to disable the wielders than the guns :- (

 

Done via Transform, it's WAY cheaper, but I worry it breaks the "If there are two ways to create an effect, go with the more expensive one".

 

In general, you're talking about a relatively minor power here.  You're looking for a way to disarm mooks, and that's it.  As a result, it shouldn't be all that expensive.  In Hero, it's really easy to overthink a power and add in stuff for every possible situation that might theoretically come up.  Do that and things will get so expensive that they become virtually useless.  Are you really going to be running into 5 mooks, all with different combinations of guns (one a shotgun, one a tranq gun, one a submachine gun, one with 3 pistols, etc)?

 

Build your power for what you're going to encounter 90% of the time and don't worry about preparing for every crazy possibility.

 

Compare your Dispel with a +4 advantage to this:

 

20D6 Dispel vs RKA, gunpowder weapons only (-1)  60 active points, 30 real

 

It fits in your Mulipower just fine.  It will dispel 70 active points, which is enough to take care of almost any gun a person could carry.  If you want to hit multiple mooks, then spread your attack.  4 guys standing close to each other means you're rolling 16D6 Dispel instead of 20D6.  For guys carrying 2D6 RKA Autofire x5, and stuff like that, it'll be plenty.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Generally speaking, you won't see 60 active point guns used by agents unless its a really high power game and there's been power bloat.  Joe Agent will have 2d6 guns at the most I'd think I mean its not like they are running around with rocket powered 75 caliber hand cannons.  So you can get away with area effect for +¼ and 4m radius, that's enough to get a group of agents, and it only knocks your dispel down to 16d6, or 56 active point average -- 11 damage classes (3½d6 KA).  Even a +½ radius buy is still 2½d6 KA which is a really big gun.

[doccowie]

Super sensible.

Agree I'm maybe overthinking, will go with the basic Dispel with an area effect, and - heck, if it doesn't work I can always get a different multipower slot!