6th Edition Rules for previous editions

[dsatow]

Ego has already been talked about so I'll put in my two cents in on Dex.

 

Dex still costs more than other stats because:

1. Dex is the primary stat for initiative.
2. There are many very useful Dex skills for Champions including Breakfall, Contortionist(escapes), Stealth, and Teamwork.  In Heroic games, you can usually toss in Combat Driving/Piloting, Riding, Fast Draw, Sleight of Hand(pick pocketing).
3. Dex is fairly useful for Dive for Cover.
4. Dex rolls are used by GMs to determine who goes first on simultaneous actions like in delays.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Combat stuff is always more expensive than non-combat.  That's shown in the expense of combat related effects vs environmental (Change Environment), the cost of senses and powers like darkness, images, shapeshifting, etc.  Dex is heavily related to combat, and so are its skills.  Hence, more expensive.

 

Now, you can make a case that Strength should cost more, but that makes Bricks prohibitively expensive.  But that's why when we were discussing what to do with 6th edition back in the day I suggested stripping Hand to hand damage and leaping off the stat. Leaping got pulled off, at least.

[Hugh Neilson]

i am satisfied with the cost of EGO.  Thank you all for the clarification.

 

But DEX still seems overpriced.  It's not enough to simply point out a bunch of different things that a characteristic gives you.  It's a matter of how useful in-game those things are - and in particular how useful they are compared with other characteristics (and powers and skill levels, etc.)

 

Going earlier in the phase and improved DEX rolls for 2 points compared to extra lifting, HtH damage, and throwing and ranged damage with throwing, for 1 point.

 

"Look at my fancy acrobatics!  Watch me climb!  How about some contortion or sleight of hand?" pretty much pales in comparison to "HULK SMASH PUNY HUMAN!"

OK, so is this a DEX issue or a STR issue? How does STR compare to INT or PRE? It compares pretty well to Blast, so I am not thinking I would reprice STR without also repricing Blast. TK, of course, would also have to be repriced. Probably need to reprice everything with a DC too.

 

How useful is that Extra Lifting? Do you often find you need to lift something out of the way in a Supers game, rather than blast it out of the way? I find that Hero is way too easy on "Throwing" and "Using Improvised Weapons", but maybe too cheap in allowing an improvised weapon to add damage.

 

Do you have "WF: Girder"? No? Maybe that should mea an OCV penalty. A weight and bulk limit to pick up and throw as a single action also seems reasonable. Weapons that can be thrown weigh a lot less than the weight their STR Min allows someone to lift. How about we impose a STR Min on improvised weapons, instead of "as long as casual STR covers it, you are good to go"? Don't forget the Encumbrance penalty to DCV - maybe you are easier to hit when hefting the improvised weapon. And the "balance OCV penalty".

 

And let's get rid of this "any big object is AoE crock. That isn't how the source material works. Ben Grimm swings a lamppost, the HYDRA goons are mowed down but Spidey leaps clear. Sounds like it's Non-Selective so he still has to roll to hit. Hulk throws a bus at Spidey? He grabs on to one side and rides it out, or dives through a window on one side and out another on the other side. x2 Human Size is +2 OCV, and x4 is +4. You pick between the two.

 

Now, if the object really is big compared to your STR, I can see a damage bonus. A Great Club effectively adds 3 DC (6d6 with a 15 STR min) and requires two hands. If you pick up something that's more than 75% of your max lift, and made of something hard and solid, maybe you can also get an extra 3 DC. But now you aren't using it to boost OCV, hit multiple targets or throw.

 

 

Dex still costs more than other stats because:

• Dex is the primary stat for initiative.
• There are many very useful Dex skills for Champions including Breakfall, Contortionist(escapes), Stealth, and Teamwork.  In Heroic games, you can usually toss in Combat Driving/Piloting, Riding, Fast Draw, Sleight of Hand(pick pocketing).
• Dex is fairly useful for Dive for Cover.
• Dex rolls are used by GMs to determine who goes first on simultaneous actions like in delays.

 

PRE is the primary stat for PRE attacks. There are many useful PRE skills, assuming you don't solve all your problems with violence.

 

INT helps PRE - if you can't locate him, you can't hit him. There are useful INT skills as well. If you can't find him, what difference does it make if you act first?

 

And I find going first is overrated. It's an advantage in some cases, but a limited one. If we have the same SPD, then once you go first, we alternate. Doesn't matter if your DEX is higher by mine than 1 or 21, so I might free up a lot of points by accepting you get the first strike.

 

Steve Long, however, seems to place great stock in initiative, and that is one reason DEX stayed at 2 points. Unquestionably, however, DEX was the bargain stat pre-6e.

[PhilFleischmann]

Hulk cant smash what Hulk can't hit!

True, but that has nothing to do with DEX.

 

Combat stuff is always more expensive than non-combat.

True, but DEX doesn't really have that much to do with combat, directly.  OCV, DCV, STR, CON, PD and ED have to do with combat directly, and all cost less than DEX.

 

Yes, if you successfully use DEX-based skills, you might be able to get some bonus in combat.  And a combat situation might call for a DEX roll.  But the same is true for some INT-based skills and PER rolls.  And the same is true for PRE-based skills and making and resisting PRE Attacks.

 

And initiative is only useful up to a certain point.  Going first isn't always that useful, which is why people hold their actions so often.

 

But assuming you really want to go first for whatever reason (and I acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons), if everyone else has 10 DEX, and you have 11 DEX, then you get to go first for your 2 points spent.  But if you spent 80 points for a 50 DEX, you don't get to go any "more first".

 

Based on everything else I know about the 6e changes, I think all the other characteristics are priced about right.  Particularly STR, CON, INT, EGO, PRE.  It seems to me there is also something "elegant" about the game if all six of those main characteristics cost the same.

 

I don't mean to belabor the point.  And I'm aware there are probably other changes in 6e that I don't know about, and maybe various practical considerations in combat that my "armchair GMing" is overlooking.  I'm just saying that it *seems* to me that DEX is too expensive, relative to the other characteristics, and while it *might* be slightly more useful than INT or PRE, it really doesn't seem *twice* as useful.  (But of course, no one is going to want DEX priced at 1 1/2 points.)

 

And the one "bottom line" is that it's up to the GM to make the game balanced.  If one player wants to play Presence-Man, and the GM provides nothing but mindless robotic enemies that can't be negotiated with, bribed, seduced, bluffed, or intimidated, then that player is going to feel ripped off (and rightly so) no matter what the price was that he paid for his PRE.  A player who bought 20 DEX for 20 points has every right to expect about twice as much utility as the guy who bought 20 INT for only 10 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Phil, I agree with a lot of your points. I know some people see EX as "more combat skill focused", but I'd suggest that, if some skills are more broadly useful, the fix is in skill pricing, not stat pricing.

 

But I am not sold on the stat pricing, and this is highlighted by 6e improving decoupling. Let's look:

 

- I can buy +1 to all PER rolls for 3 points, and +1 to "all Intellect skills" for 4 points, which will allow a +1 bonus to one of those at a time (but not background skills based on INT, or any other INT based roll). So I spent 40% more than the cost of +5 INT to achieve considerably less. Either INT is too cheap, or Enhanced PER and skill levels are too pricy. I think it is the former.

 

- I can buy +10 "defensive PRE" for 5 points (sample power, 6e p 178), and +2 to "all Interaction skills" for 4 points, which will allow a +1 bonus to one of those at a time (but not background skills based on PRE, or any other PRE based roll). So I spent 90% more than the cost of +10 PRE. For one point more, I could get +1d6 to all PRE attacks, my +2 bonus applies to all interaction skills at the same time and all other PRE based rolls and I get any other incidental benefits of higher PRE. Alternatively, I can buy +5 PRE Defense for 3 points and +1d6 PRE attacks and +1 Interaction Skill rolls for all situations where appearance may be a factor for another 3 points. I spent 20% more to limit the people my PRE attacks and interaction skills are improved against. Either PRE is too cheap, or Striking Appearance, PRE Defense and skill levels are too pricy. To this one, I go one step further and say Make PRE DEF a function of EGO only. Being impressive and resisting being impressed are entirely different things!

 

- I can buy +5 to "initiative" for 5 points (Lightning Reflexes), and +1 to "all Agility skills" for 6 points, which will allow a +1 bonus to one of those at a time (but not background skills based on DEX, or any other DEX based roll). So I spent 10% more than the cost of +5 DEX - even at 2 points for +1 DEX - to achieve considerably less. If we drop the price of DEX< I suspect we would drop Lightning Reflexes to +2 DEX for 1 point, and set skill levels at the same price as INT and PRE, so now I "only" spend 9 points to get some of the benefits of spending 5 points on DEX. Bring the pricing of skill levels back in line, and DEX seems priced about right at 2 points.

 

Hence my theory that we price all three at 2 points, make "+1 to all rolls based on the stat (not including perception for INT) cost 5 points (and that means EVERY roll based on the stat, all at the same time) and limit skill levels down from there (maybe make it 3 for "All skills based on the stat, one at a time", 2 for "a tight group of 3 skills, one at a time" and +1 to a single skill becomes 1 point instead of 2 - skill monkeys never buy up a single skill anyway, because it's too pricy).

 

Then price the other effect of the stat at 5 points for the equivalent of +5, and limit that down if it's more restricted.

 

Now, STR stays the challenge, but here I would say STR is pretty much ONLY useful in combat, its pricing aligns with other damage causing abilities and we can tone down the ability to use the environment as a weapon, so STR at 1 point is OK.

 

Would it be more elegant to price all primary stats the same? I can make that work...after a fashion.

 

Primary characteristics cost 1 point each. They are as follows:

 

Strength

Dexterity (this is now the skills and rolls stat)

Reaction (this is now the "Initiative stat")

Constitution

Intelligence (this is now the skills and rolls stat)

Perceptiveness (this is now the PER roll stat)

Ego (handles EGO rolls and PRE defense)

Presence (this is now the PRE attack stat)

Charm (this is now the skills and rolls stat)

 

That was pretty easy.

 

9 stats is no less elegant than 6.

 

It carries on the theme of decoupling, and of getting what you pay for.

 

Lightning Reflexes and Enhanced Perception go away (they become examples of Limited Characteristics).

 

Skill levels become limited characteristics.

 

Striking Appearance is limited Charm.

 

The sky is bluer and the sun shines brighter.

 

We have world peace and no unemployment.

 

And so on.

[Christopher R Taylor]

True, but DEX doesn't really have that much to do with combat, directly.  OCV, DCV, STR, CON, PD and ED have to do with combat directly, and all cost less than DEX.

 

 

While true, your point doesn't really hold up to scrutiny as people have noted here.  OCV and DCV cost more than double what DEX does.  PD and ED have no secondary value or use; they are just a modifier to damage, without a roll or skills or any function beyond that.  Strength as others have noted might be slightly undercosted but its that way out of a concession to certain character designs and as a result has value being at its price.

 

Dexterity does several things at once, and many of the things it does are very valuable in combat and survival (breakfall, acrobatics, dive for cover, etc rolls; who acts first) in addition to non combat (shadowing, stealth, lockpicking, etc) and all of those are high-impact skills.  Hence, it is more expensive, because it gives so much.

 

The real test comes down to this: which stat do you consistently buy higher on average for all your characters: Ego or Dexterity?  INT or Dexterity?  If its worth more to you as a stat, it is worth more in points to buy.

[PhilFleischmann]

I don't think it's fair to say that just because something can be broken down into smaller parts, and the price of those parts added together is less than the price of the whole, that the whole is underpriced.  The HERO system has always had things like this.  There have always been "package deals" if you will.  In fact, many RPGs have something analogous.  And it's not really a problem.  This is because these multiple benefits aren't all practically useful at the same time.  For example, once you're one point of DEX over your opponent, you're going first.  Any additional points of DEX/Lightning Reflexes don't give you any additional benefit.  If all you want is to be a skill monster, you can buy levels with all Agility Skills, Intellect Skills, and Interaction Skills, and pay a lot less than you would have for buying a lot of DEX, INT, and EGO.  It's the usual balance between raw power and flexibility - which is seen in most RPGs and even a whole lot of board games.

 

The real test comes down to this: which stat do you consistently buy higher on average for all your characters: Ego or Dexterity?  INT or Dexterity?  If its worth more to you as a stat, it is worth more in points to buy.

That depends on the character concept of course.  But assuming the character isn't specifically based around EGO, DEX, or INT, I'd probably be inclined to leave them all at 10.  If I was building a Brick, for example, I might be inclined to sell back some DEX, if it's 2 points, for all the extra points that would give me.  And I might buy a few points of EGO, to protect myself against various mental powers (assuming I couldn't conceptually justify Mental Defense).  And I think that's one of the great things about the 6e changes - that you don't have to buy DEX (or EGO or INT) if your character concept doesn't call for it.

[Hugh Neilson]

While true, your point doesn't really hold up to scrutiny as people have noted here.  OCV and DCV cost more than double what DEX does.  PD and ED have no secondary value or use; they are just a modifier to damage, without a roll or skills or any function beyond that.  Strength as others have noted might be slightly undercosted but its that way out of a concession to certain character designs and as a result has value being at its price.

 

Dexterity does several things at once, and many of the things it does are very valuable in combat and survival (breakfall, acrobatics, dive for cover, etc rolls; who acts first) in addition to non combat (shadowing, stealth, lockpicking, etc) and all of those are high-impact skills.  Hence, it is more expensive, because it gives so much.

If the skills are more high-impact than other skills, they should be more expensive. Why should an agile character who has none of these skills pay a premium for DEX because, if he did have those skills, his DEX would be more useful?

 

The real test comes down to this: which stat do you consistently buy higher on average for all your characters: Ego or Dexterity?  INT or Dexterity?  If its worth more to you as a stat, it is worth more in points to buy.

Frankly, I always buy up PRE because the cost of being hammered by a PRE attack is too significant not to. Pre-6e, DEX was the only cost-effective way of having the CV necessary to be combat-capable, but in 6e, I often leave DEX at 10, or even sell it back to 8, as Phil suggests.

 

I consider the failure to re-think DEX for many 6e character write-ups a huge failing in the transition. There is no reason the standard Super needs a 23 DEX any more.

 

I don't think it's fair to say that just because something can be broken down into smaller parts, and the price of those parts added together is less than the price of the whole, that the whole is underpriced.  The HERO system has always had things like this.

It's not supposed to be - you are supposed to get what you pay for. That is why STR, CON and DEX pricing was widely criticized prior to 6e - figured characteristics made them way too valuable for their cost. 6e decoupled Figured, in large part, to address that. It also reduced the price of STUN, END and REC because, at historical prices, they were too expensive to consider buying - we'll get the cheaper Reduced END and higher Defenses instead.

 

There have always been "package deals" if you will.  In fact, many RPGs have something analogous.  And it's not really a problem.  This is because these multiple benefits aren't all practically useful at the same time.  For example, once you're one point of DEX over your opponent, you're going first.  Any additional points of DEX/Lightning Reflexes don't give you any additional benefit.  If all you want is to be a skill monster, you can buy levels with all Agility Skills, Intellect Skills, and Interaction Skills, and pay a lot less than you would have for buying a lot of DEX, INT, and EGO.  It's the usual balance between raw power and flexibility - which is seen in most RPGs and even a whole lot of board games.

Emphasis added, although I don't know why you list EGO instead of PRE. +1 level with all Interaction, Agility and Intellect skills costs 14 points under the present model, or 12 if we equalized DEX. That does not compare remotely favourably to 15 points for buying up all three stats 5 points, if we take your model and drop DEX to 1 point instead of 2. Why should anyone settle for being "only" a skill monster when a few more points will give him a monster PRE attack? Having a second skill based on the same stat provide synergy will quickly make my +20 stat far superior to your 5 skill levels.

 

I agree not having to pile on DEX for every character is a huge improvement. So why cant I also have the ability to build a cost-effective skill monkey who has high training instead of huge stats?

[Cantriped]

People always forget (or ignore) when they are crunching numbers that Skill Levels only apply to one thing per phase. For example, If you applied an Agility SL (worth 6 CP) to Climbing, you cannot also apply that SL to Breakfall when the enemy knocks you off the cliff, nor can you apply it to Stealth to more easily climb the cliff without being noticed by said enemies. Meanwhile, +5 DEX (worth 10 CP) applies to all three skills simultaneously and adds 5 to your Initiative for physical actions (which would normally cost 5 CP by itself).

[Christopher R Taylor]

If the skills are more high-impact than other skills, they should be more expensive. Why should an agile character who has none of these skills pay a premium for DEX because, if he did have those skills, his DEX would be more useful?

 

Well you price things in a game like this based on the overall value, rather than what your given character uses of that potential value, really.  Since DEX as the base makes all of the abilities more powerful without spending points on them, then its a valuable stat.

 

I consider the failure to re-think DEX for many 6e character write-ups a huge failing in the transition.

 

There is probably some of that, yes.  But still, DEX

[Hugh Neilson]

Sure, it's a valuable stat. So is PRE and INT.

 

You don't act first if I attack from surprise because your pathetic PER roll didn't detect me. If I can ambush you out of combat (say, because my INT based skills ferret out your Secret ID, or because you don't detect me before I attack), you likely won't act at all.

 

Situational, of course. So are Acrobatics and Breakfall, though.

[Ninja-Bear]

Phil if my DeX goes first I use a super power to move out hisn reach like t-port accross the city. It does help. (Though truthfully, I was still in pre-6th mode of Dex adds to DCV)

[Ninja-Bear]

And Hugh still disagree about initiative. I feel its worth the cost going first. Ymmv of course.

[Cantriped]

Most systems agree that Initiative and Perception are probably the two most important game elements you can invest in.

Perception allows you to interact with your world, Initiative allows you to do it before your enemy does. I don't necessarily like that Dex is the only Characteristic that costs 2 points, but considering that:

A   Having even 1 more point of it than your enemy guarantees you go first (while Perception actually requires you make a Roll) and...

B   Most of the skills that have combat applications are Agility Skills...

I can kind of understand it. I'm certainly not about to house rule it and force myself to audit every single pregenerated stat-block I ever use again.

[dsatow]

Before I start replying to the comments, since the posts are rather long.  We are getting off topic and maybe we should make a new thread.  I'll break my post up into smaller posts in reply for this thread but as for a vote, I say we move it to a more appropriate titled thread.

[dsatow]

DEX's initiative value is important. 

1. A person who goes first and incapacitates one or more targets (not necessarily knocks out) gains an advantage to the others.  If the first person to move was able to drain all the enemies DCV, the enemy would either have to abort losing their phase or take the DCV loss.  This is just one example where initiative is helpful in a tactical sense.  The Mexican proverb "He who strikes first, strikes twice." still holds true.
2. If you have the initiative and you stun a person, you can continue to beat the living tar out of them and never let them recover.  This is only possible if you go before they have a chance to recover from being stunned.  6e2 pg 105

A character may be hit by an attack in the Phase in which he’ll recover from being Stunned before getting to do so (i.e., by another character whose DEX is higher than his). If the character takes no damage from the attack after applying his defenses, he may still recover from being Stunned as normal. However, if the character takes any STUN or BODY damage from the attack, he cannot recover from being Stunned that Phase; he must try to do so on his next Phase instead. (At the GM’s option, this also occurs if a character suffers any similar effect, such as losing INT to a Drain INT or taking Knockback.) 

 

[dsatow]

The cost of DEX relative to other things

 

1. Skill levels vs buying a stat, the skill levels should always cost more if you are trying to replicate the stat.  Why?  Because the skill level mechanic is not designed to replace the stat.  It is more like a stat with a limitation. It's like saying "I buy 10d6 EB only vs fire characters for (-1/2) and 10d6 EB only vs cold characters for (-1/2) and then complaining it cheaper to buy just 10d6 of EB."  Yes, it is, you should just buy energy blast.   HERO doesn't guarantee every build of a power or ability to cost the same just that there is some semblance of point balance.  Even if the point balance is a little off, its much better than it was before when Strength gave you figured stats.
2. The value of a stat really can change based on the campaign.  A campaign where there is a lot of detective work and investigation, INT is too cheap.  In a game where there is lots of explosions and people are diving for cover a lot.  DEX is too cheap. It is situational.  But what we know is that Steve costed DEX based on its combat value, most probably from a Champions point of view due to historical and sales reasons.  Many games value initiative and perception, and HERO does too.  Perception matters for surprise, but once the villain is known, unless there are tons of flashes, darkness, or invisibility, once you spot a target, you generally don't lose sight of the target.  But your initiative always stays the same (barring drains and the like) through a combat.

[Tasha]

 

The cost of DEX relative to other things

 

1. Skill levels vs buying a stat, the skill levels should always cost more if you are trying to replicate the stat.  Why?  Because the skill level mechanic is not designed to replace the stat.  It is more like a stat with a limitation. It's like saying "I buy 10d6 EB only vs fire characters for (-1/2) and 10d6 EB only vs cold characters for (-1/2) and then complaining it cheaper to buy just 10d6 of EB."  Yes, it is, you should just buy energy blast.   HERO doesn't guarantee every build of a power or ability to cost the same just that there is some semblance of point balance.  Even if the point balance is a little off, its much better than it was before when Strength gave you figured stats.
2. The value of a stat really can change based on the campaign.  A campaign where there is a lot of detective work and investigation, INT is too cheap.  In a game where there is lots of explosions and people are diving for cover a lot.  DEX is too cheap. It is situational.  But what we know is that Steve costed DEX based on its combat value, most probably from a Champions point of view due to historical and sales reasons.  Many games value initiative and perception, and HERO does too.  Perception matters for surprise, but once the villain is known, unless there are tons of flashes, darkness, or invisibility, once you spot a target, you generally don't lose sight of the target.  But your initiative always stays the same (barring drains and the like) through a combat

Dex is costed out at 2pts because the Majority of Skills use Dex as their controlling stat. This makes Dex a very important stat. As does more than one combat maneuver (ie Dive For Cover), Also dex rolls are made for many many situations that aren't covered by skills. That alone probably makes Dex worth 2pts a pip. The other thing that dex does is initiative and that on top of all of the many other things that Dex does makes it worth the 2pts per pip.

 

So yeah you can buy a ton of skill levels that you have to apply to each circumstance you use that skill. You hope that you don't need to use dex for another reason in the same phase. Which is something that can and will happen.

[Hugh Neilson]

Out of respect for dsatow, I will chunk up my otherwise lengthy combined post. To the question of topic, Drift Happens.

 

And Hugh still disagree about initiative. I feel its worth the cost going first. Ymmv of course.

There is some value to initiative – it should not be free. But it’s about the balance. I do not think “going first if combat has already started” (the key second effect of DEX) is substantially more valuable than “perceiving your opponent so he does not take you out before combat starts” (the key second effect of INT) or “forcing your opponent to back down with a PRE attack” (the key second effect of PRE).

 

Which one is more important in any given campaign could vary widely. There was a poll on campaign averages back before 4e that showed Champs games with attacks in the 16-18 DC range and defenses of 15 – 20, and others with attacks of 8 – 10 DCs and defenses of 25 – 30. Clearly, the value of initiative would be very different depending on which game you were playing in.

 

Actually, I think campaign norm guidelines was a huge improvement in 4e - for the first time, we had an insight into what the designers envisioned for DC relative to defense, CVs, SPD, etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

DEX's initiative value is important.

 

A person who goes first and incapacitates one or more targets (not necessarily knocks out) gains an advantage to the others. If the first person to move was able to drain all the enemies DCV, the enemy would either have to abort losing their phase or take the DCV loss. This is just one example where initiative is helpful in a tactical sense. The Mexican proverb "He who strikes first, strikes twice." still holds true.

 

If you have the initiative and you stun a person, you can continue to beat the living tar out of them and never let them recover. This is only possible if you go before they have a chance to recover from being stunned.

The question is not, to my mind, “is initiative important”, but “what is its relative importance?” If it is so important, why do players not chafe at playing the Brick, and all design Speedsters and Martial Artists? If striking first is the game-winner, why do so many players Delay their actions?

 

And I can gain the initiative without DEX. If you cannot detect me, I get an attack by surprise before you even realize I am there to target. Now I get all those advantages of going first. The higher PER roll granted by INT could have saved you, but no amount of DEX will.

 

Even a modestly effective PRE attack allows me to act first, as you hesitate, and since a PRE attack takes no time, our relative DEX scores are meaningless.

 

See 6e V2 p 18:

 

ACTIONS WHICH TAKE NO TIME

 

Fourth are Actions which take no time. As the term implies, these Actions take no time to perform; a character may perform them whenever he wishes and as often as he wishes. For instance, a character could perform an Action that takes

no time on a Segment when he doesn’t have a Phase, after performing a Full Phase Action, in the middle of attacking, before making an attack, after attacking, or the like. Examples including making a Presence Attack, making a soliloquy, or making a roll at the GM’s request.

 

I PRE attack before you act, at your DEX of 75. I get a roll of your PRE +1. You hesitate, so I get to act at my DEX of 5 before you launch your attack. Now I have all the advantages you cite above.

 

I will note, however, that I find very few games where "first strike against combat ready target" is likely to result in that opponent being Stunned. First Strike is much more important in a game where DC:Defense ratios make Stunning (or killing - initiative is crucial in the Wild West) likely.

[Hugh Neilson]

The cost of DEX relative to other things

 

Skill levels vs buying a stat, the skill levels should always cost more if you are trying to replicate the stat. Why? Because the skill level mechanic is not designed to replace the stat. It is more like a stat with a limitation. It's like saying "I buy 10d6 EB only vs fire characters for (-1/2) and 10d6 EB only vs cold characters for (-1/2) and then complaining it cheaper to buy just 10d6 of EB." Yes, it is, you should just buy energy blast. HERO doesn't guarantee every build of a power or ability to cost the same just that there is some semblance of point balance. Even if the point balance is a little off, its much better than it was before when Strength gave you figured stats.

To me, a limitation means you get less and save points, not that you get a lot less and save only a few points. A power that activates on an 11- halves the cost and works 62.5% of the time. To me, that is fair as the other 12.5% of utility was lost to unpredictability of when the power will work.

 

I assume you were also a fan of figured characteristics. The primary reason for reworking the stat costs was the bargain basement pricing of DEX and CON in this regard, and STR to a lesser extent. I prefer the 6e model of “you get what you pay for”. I recall a SETAC discussion on keeping Figured, but pricing the Primary and Secondary stats, and maybe revising the formuli, so that it was similar cost to buy the Primary, or buy the Primary limited to lack Figured, and buy up the Figured’s separately. Steve’s answer, IIRC, was why bother if the costs are right either way? Tough to debate that logic.

 

The value of a stat really can change based on the campaign. A campaign where there is a lot of detective work and investigation, INT is too cheap. In a game where there is lots of explosions and people are diving for cover a lot. DEX is too cheap. It is situational. But what we know is that Steve costed DEX based on its combat value, most probably from a Champions point of view due to historical and sales reasons. Many games value initiative and perception, and HERO does too. Perception matters for surprise, but once the villain is known, unless there are tons of flashes, darkness, or invisibility, once you spot a target, you generally don't lose sight of the target. But your initiative always stays the same (barring drains and the like) through a combat.

Actually, my recollection is that DEX was priced higher because Steve placed a higher value on initiative, but then Agility skill levels were priced higher because DEX cost more. So I did not see a ton of consistency there.

 

While stat values can and will vary between games, I have not seen any where everyone buys up DEX and no one buys up INT or PRE. I think long-time Hero gamers cringe at having a low DEX after 5 editions where “low DEX” meant “useless in combat”. My 8 DEX Super worked just fine, thank you. He also had very low defenses, a bit of Damage Reduction and lots of STUN, END and REC, plus some APG accelerate Regeneration since most attacks slip a BOD or 2 through. He pretty much never struck first. He was typically standing at the end of the battle, though. Saving 30 points against the fellow with a 23 "standard Super" Dex was pretty sweet.

[Hugh Neilson]

 

Dex is costed out at 2pts because the Majority of Skills use Dex as their controlling stat.

Ummm…looking at 6e v1 p 62, I count 12 Agility Skills, 28 Intellect skills and 12 Interaction skills.

 

For those of you who sold back INT to buy up DEX , 12 + 12 = 24, which is less than 28.

 

That’s for Lurkers, btw – no one who plays Hero sold back INT to buy up anything…remember, we’re the math-heavy game!

 

This makes Dex a very important stat. As does more than one combat maneuver (ie Dive For Cover),

Pardon my ignorance, but what are the other ones? “I can abort my action and end up prone to avoid an attack” doesn’t really thrill me all that much as I typically build characters who can take a few campaign-standard hits in the course of a combat.

 

Also dex rolls are made for many many situations that aren't covered by skills.

You don’t get to add INT based skill levels to background skills, many of which are purchased as INT-driven (and I have never seen a DEX-driven one, though I suppose one could justify some).

 

That alone probably makes Dex worth 2pts a pip. The other thing that dex does is initiative and that on top of all of the many other things that Dex does makes it worth the 2pts per pip.

What’s really sad is that I agree DEX is worth 2 points. What I don’t agree is that INT and PRE are only worth 1 point. In my view, the “skills and base rolls” of each of the three are about equal in value. The other benefit of each (initiative, perception, PRE attacks) are about equal in value (and that ignores PRE defense – take a 10 PRE and see how often you actually get to move if someone rolls PRE attacks for every villain’s opening monologue – because I would move that to EGO to keep PRE from remaining a bargain at 2 points).

 

So yeah you can buy a ton of skill levels that you have to apply to each circumstance you use that skill. You hope that you don't need to use dex for another reason in the same phase. Which is something that can and will happen.

DEX skill levels cost 60% of the stat to get the same bonus. INT and PRE cost 80%. Complementary INT skills (including background skills) are very common. Oratory enhances PRE attacks, and I’d say these can also be complementary. I don’t think their skills are worth a lot more than DEX based skills, but I also don’t think they are worth a lot less.

[Hugh Neilson]

For those not willing to invest the time required to read all of the above:

 

- congrats - I wish I had your willpower!

 

- tl;dr: I do not think DEX is overpriced. I think INT and PRE are underpriced. It took me a lot of time to work my way around to that thinking, as I had to step back from 30+ years of Hero gaming [when did I get so old?] at the time.

[bigdamnhero]

The discussion of Mental Powers in another thread reminded me of another 6ed change I love, and had long-ago house ruled in my games: making it RAW-legal to put IPE on Mental Powers (the cost of which scales with the point level) vs. having to achieve +20 over the required level (which does not scale, and therefore makes invisible mental powers prohibitively expensive for most Heroic games).

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh intellect may have more skills listed but lets be real here. If you compare characters you will see more Dex skills used per character than intellect. Yeah you have your doctor destroyers that probably have more intellect than dex based skills but over all? No