Brian Stanfield Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 So I was watching the last Harry Potter movie where the Elder wand sort of rejects Voldemort. I've also been reading Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series where one can burn oneself out by hanging onto and drawing too much from the One True Source, which then burns one out like a light bulb. Of course I started thinking about this in Hero System terms. Would this play best as a sort of mana system? Or is there a better way to model this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 Perhaps an Activation Roll/Side Effect to NOT Burn Out, but the roll gets negatives for every 10-20 AP/"mana" the character is channeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallet Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 Is the burn out permanent? or maybe semi-permanent (like would take months to recover and use magic again)? If it is permanent then I think it might be best to handle it as a GM/story event, as no character would want to be permanently deprived of all his magic powers in an on-going campaign. For semi-permanent, maybe some form of Long Term Endurance modified to applying to magic (Long Term Magical END), with a longer recovery time once you reach zero. So that if a character ever spends all his Long Term Magic END, then it will take him a month or longer to slowly start getting it back, but if he rests and recovers after casting a few spells then it will go back up as normal. So if he is every truly desperate and burns through all his Long Term END in one or two very difficult sessions, then he is "burnt out" for the next few weeks or months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 One of the things I totally miss from my old days playing Role Master is the Critical Hits & Critical Fumbles tables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 Mallet asked.good questions. Once those are answeres, it will be easier to model effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 Permanet could be auto side effect-transform to burn out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 So I was watching the last Harry Potter movie where the Elder wand sort of rejects Voldemort. I've also been reading Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series where one can burn oneself out by hanging onto and drawing too much from the One True Source, which then burns one out like a light bulb. Of course I started thinking about this in Hero System terms. Would this play best as a sort of mana system? Or is there a better way to model this? I think you actually need to sit and think what you want in game terms. Like Manic Typist said, what are you thinking about? In Wheel of Time the burn out was pretty much a massive reduction in ability (something no player really wants to experience). If you were thinking in those terms then I would say that it is a game event rather than a mechanic where you might tell a player, at a dramatically appropriate time, that while he is unable to do what he wants under normal circumstances that he could risk overclocking the powers with the risk that he loses his powers completely (very heroic) with a guarantee that if the worst happens he can re-cofigure his character with all the available points... If it is a shorter term burn-out then you are looking at a variety of different things and ways to do it. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stanfield Posted February 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 Thanks for the leading questions. I am a bit vague about what I'm asking. Sorry. I don't have anything particular in mind, I was just curious if there's a way to model it. Let me try to flesh out a few of the points I'm curious about: In the Harry Potter movies, the wand chooses the wizard. A borrowed wand will work, just not as well. Your own wand will work better (stronger) for you. However, when you capture someone else's wand, it changes allegiances. Voldemort captured the Elder wand, but it wasn't really his (it was Draco's). When he tried to use it to attack Hogwarts he nearly split it asunder trying to push as hard as he could. So, is there some sort of way to model this? Would a borrowed wand be a Drain? Would your own be an Aid? How about the blowback from trying to push too much magic through a not-your wand? In the Circle of Time books, everyone draws from the same One True Source for their magic, although not everyone has this ability. It is limited to some sort of genetic trait or something (like a Talent I guess). But here are some of the drawbacks:If you draw too much of the Source, you'll burn yourself out: you "still" yourself, and no longer have access to magic permanently. Others can get together to still you by joining their magic in order to cut you off. Basically like blowing too much amperage through your magical fuse so it gets blown. You can get healed, or "reconnected," but at a significantly lower level than before. How to simulate this . . . ? Although this all seems unrelated, I think I'm looking at it as what happens when you try to sip magic through a fire hose, when you've been using a straw most of your life. In other words, is there a way to simulate the over-use of magic with disastrous results. In Hero, we have spells with a set amount of AP, so you can't exceed it and there's no problem. The limits are built in. But is there a way to exceed those limits at the risk of losing it all. I guess it would be like Pushing a spell, with side effects, right? I'm just curious what different ways there are available to do this, or perhaps some problems I haven't thought of yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 The burn out as described for Circle of Time is handled by meta-game mechanics and plot, rather than game elements (although I suppose you could use Transform to deprive/reinstate someone's abilities). By that I mean its a plot-point, the fantasy version of the so-called "radiation accident". Burning yourself out (or being burned out by another) is simply the special effect for a character selling off all their magical abilities. Plot wise you would set up a situation in-game where the character is allowed to resolve it by burning themselves out (sort of a super-push, with plot-side effects). But this kind of plot element should only ever happen if the player wants it too. In that regard it is much like a complication. For example, it doesn't actually matter if Spider-Man has an Aunt May if she isn't purchased as a DNPC. If she was, than occasionally she should be in danger or a liability to Spider-Man (because that is why he got points for her), and if she wasn't than it should never come up in-game, even if his secret identity is blown and villains attack his house (she'll be out getting groceries or something). Being "reconnected" is simply the special effect for a character buying back some of their magical abilities later. As above, this is a plot point only to be used if the player so desires. When it comes down too it, nobody likes to have their character sabotaged by the GM (or the Game). If that is going to be a potential, inform your players before hand or risk losing friends (or at least table-mates), and be willing to accept that few (if any) of your players are going to choose an archetype if there is a chance the GM (or Game) is going to punish them for that decision later (and yes, they will see it as a punishment, because it is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallet Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 In the Harry Potter movies, the wand chooses the wizard. A borrowed wand will work, just not as well. Your own wand will work better (stronger) for you. However, when you capture someone else's wand, it changes allegiances. Voldemort captured the Elder wand, but it wasn't really his (it was Draco's). When he tried to use it to attack Hogwarts he nearly split it asunder trying to push as hard as he could. So, is there some sort of way to model this? Would a borrowed wand be a Drain? Would your own be an Aid? How about the blowback from trying to push too much magic through a not-your wand? Well, it is really a matter of how the magic system works in your game. In this example, are all Wands built as Foci or as Personal Foci? From what I remember of Harry Potter anyone wizard can use any wand, so that means they are just general OAF (like a gun or a knife), but in their build there would be some sort of AID magic power only for someone attuned (the true owner) to the Wand. Then since Wands are such an important part of the magic system in the Harry Potter universe, the GM would have built rules, powers or talents that would allow a powerful wizard to use someone else's wand to full effect (gaining the AID bonus) but at the risk of destroying the wand permanently. On the other hand, since Wands are such a major part of the Magic System, maybe they aren't built as Foci. Maybe they are built as Followers or Computers. Maybe they have an EGO score that any wizard who is not the true owner of the wand has to dominate in order to use the wand effectively. There are probably dozens of builds, of various costs, that could be created to mimic the effect from the movie, but it all comes down to what are the guidelines for the campaign (starting points, AP cap, etc...) and how the magic system is built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stanfield Posted February 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 On the other hand, since Wands are such a major part of the Magic System, maybe they aren't built as Foci. Maybe they are built as Followers or Computers. Maybe they have an EGO score that any wizard who is not the true owner of the wand has to dominate in order to use the wand effectively. Oooooh, I like the possibility of having the foci as followers with an EGO. That and the computer both have great possibilities! Thanks for that bit to chew on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stanfield Posted February 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 But this kind of plot element should only ever happen if the player wants it too. In that regard it is much like a complication. For example, it doesn't actually matter if Spider-Man has an Aunt May if she isn't purchased as a DNPC. If she was, than occasionally she should be in danger or a liability to Spider-Man (because that is why he got points for her), and if she wasn't than it should never come up in-game, even if his secret identity is blown and villains attack his house (she'll be out getting groceries or something). Being "reconnected" is simply the special effect for a character buying back some of their magical abilities later. As above, this is a plot point only to be used if the player so desires. When it comes down too it, nobody likes to have their character sabotaged by the GM (or the Game). If that is going to be a potential, inform your players before hand or risk losing friends (or at least table-mates), and be willing to accept that few (if any) of your players are going to choose an archetype if there is a chance the GM (or Game) is going to punish them for that decision later (and yes, they will see it as a punishment, because it is). I like the suggestion of a complication associated with this. I'm not actually really thinking of using this in a game (yet), so I'm not worried about upsetting anyone with it. I'm just curious how to work it out with the rules. It's more out of curiosity than anything. It could make for a great campaign hook, though, to quest for a "cure" for burnout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stanfield Posted February 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 I think you actually need to sit and think what you want in game terms. Like Manic Typist said, what are you thinking about? In Wheel of Time the burn out was pretty much a massive reduction in ability (something no player really wants to experience). If you were thinking in those terms then I would say that it is a game event rather than a mechanic where you might tell a player, at a dramatically appropriate time, that while he is unable to do what he wants under normal circumstances that he could risk overclocking the powers with the risk that he loses his powers completely (very heroic) with a guarantee that if the worst happens he can re-cofigure his character with all the available points... If it is a shorter term burn-out then you are looking at a variety of different things and ways to do it. Doc If I go the short-term route, what do you see as a way of achieving it? I'm doing this out of curiosity more than anything, so I'm not worried about the "fairness" of it just yet. I'm just pondering . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stanfield Posted February 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Is the burn out permanent? or maybe semi-permanent (like would take months to recover and use magic again)? If it is permanent then I think it might be best to handle it as a GM/story event, as no character would want to be permanently deprived of all his magic powers in an on-going campaign. For semi-permanent, maybe some form of Long Term Endurance modified to applying to magic (Long Term Magical END), with a longer recovery time once you reach zero. So that if a character ever spends all his Long Term Magic END, then it will take him a month or longer to slowly start getting it back, but if he rests and recovers after casting a few spells then it will go back up as normal. So if he is every truly desperate and burns through all his Long Term END in one or two very difficult sessions, then he is "burnt out" for the next few weeks or months. Good ideas. I've been playing around with LTE in my magic system, and this may fit in with that if I require extra long recovery time contingent upon completely draining LTE. This is probably exactly what I would have settled on if I wasn't so lazy to do the work myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 If I go the short-term route, what do you see as a way of achieving it? I'm doing this out of curiosity more than anything, so I'm not worried about the "fairness" of it just yet. I'm just pondering . . . Well, there is the actual burn-out limitation, where you have to activate the power when you use it and, if you fail that roll, you lose access to it, usually for the adventure. If you take that level of limitation as a level then you can start to look at alternatives. For example having a big number and lowering it every time you use it, or take damage, or anything really. I like giving a dice pool. Say your power has 10 dice - all d6. If you use it, you roll the dice and remove any that roll a 6. You keep doing this and, when you have no dice in the pool, you cannot access the power. It is a pretty cool way of having something a bit uncertain and adds a bit of dramatic tension. You can add these mechanisms to individual powers or to power pools - if the pool fails, then all the powers are unavailable. You can utilise the variety of options in charges and endurance batteries to simulate other stuff. It all comes down to whether your changes are beneficial or detrimental to the use of the power and by how much. That then determines how much of an advantage or limitation you apply to the cost. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jab Gideon Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 If I was to just make something up... If its is healable, it could be a Major (or Severe) Transformation into a Muggle, healed by Natural Healing. As you accumulate the damage your Active Point caps are reduced, until it is healed or restored with a Focus (OAF) Aid effect. Wheel of Time was big into the equivalent of focuses with Aid and Drain effects. If not healable then campaign convention/plot device Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stanfield Posted February 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Well, there is the actual burn-out limitation, where you have to activate the power when you use it and, if you fail that roll, you lose access to it, usually for the adventure. If you take that level of limitation as a level then you can start to look at alternatives. For example having a big number and lowering it every time you use it, or take damage, or anything really. I like giving a dice pool. Say your power has 10 dice - all d6. If you use it, you roll the dice and remove any that roll a 6. You keep doing this and, when you have no dice in the pool, you cannot access the power. It is a pretty cool way of having something a bit uncertain and adds a bit of dramatic tension. You can add these mechanisms to individual powers or to power pools - if the pool fails, then all the powers are unavailable. You can utilise the variety of options in charges and endurance batteries to simulate other stuff. It all comes down to whether your changes are beneficial or detrimental to the use of the power and by how much. That then determines how much of an advantage or limitation you apply to the cost. Doc I've always liked the idea of a dice pool, but never actually used one in such a way. I like the possibilities here. Thanks for the suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I would play this as a side effect. The side effect being Transform (major) that goes against INT (or whatever characteristic that governs magic in your campaign) and if the cumulative Transform doubles the relevant stat, then the character is burned out and cannot perform magic until this is healed in whatever way suits your campaign. I would have the Transform activate if the skill roll is failed and if it is a critical failure, the max on the Transform dice is automaticaly added to the cumulative amount. The Transform should of course heal at a rate of Recovery per month, so be careful (if your campaig has a seperate mana Recovery stat, use that instead of physical recovery) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 One of the things I totally miss from my old days playing Role Master is the Critical Hits & Critical Fumbles tables. I use a random fumble table for spell casting in my fantasy hero games, inspired by the charts in RM. Of course I also use the Shadow World campaign setting as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 This is a concept that is in the background of my fantasy setting but isn't so much rules-based. If I ever get to the mage book I plan to write, it will be a key plot point. Magic is fueled by Mana, which a character can tap into in order to cast spells. Each person has a small amount of naturally generated mana internally that they can learn to build up, but the bulk of the power from spells comes from this extradimensional "fuel" of sorts. As mana is expended in an area, it is replenished by creatures referred to as "spirits" by the mortal realm which consume "spent" mana and excrete powered mana, which can then be used again. There's a whole ecology which explains where undead and elementals etc come from but the long and short of it is this: if you use up too much of the mana in one location too rapidly, it can't replenish fast enough and in fact can become so impoverished of mana that no magic can work there for a short or even extended time. More importantly: that area will become a feeding frenzy for spirits and can also become a very dangerous place as they spill over into the mortal realms causing unluck, strange events, chaotic distortions, hauntings, elemental and undead manifestations, tear the boundaries so demons can pass through, etc. Oh, I should add that in low-mana areas, spell rolls are harder, and mana cost increases (more has to come from the player) while in high-mana areas, mana cost reduces, mana regeneration can be higher, and spell rolls are easier... but often side effects are more powerful or have a chance to go off even with success. People who use too much magic in one place, or have too many enchants and existing spells in one place at a time tend to eventually face trouble, even disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 This is a concept that is in the background of my fantasy setting but isn't so much rules-based. If I ever get to the mage book I plan to write, it will be a key plot point. Magic is fueled by Mana, which a character can tap into in order to cast spells. Each person has a small amount of naturally generated mana internally that they can learn to build up, but the bulk of the power from spells comes from this extradimensional "fuel" of sorts. As mana is expended in an area, it is replenished by creatures referred to as "spirits" by the mortal realm which consume "spent" mana and excrete powered mana, which can then be used again. There's a whole ecology which explains where undead and elementals etc come from but the long and short of it is this: if you use up too much of the mana in one location too rapidly, it can't replenish fast enough and in fact can become so impoverished of mana that no magic can work there for a short or even extended time. More importantly: that area will become a feeding frenzy for spirits and can also become a very dangerous place as they spill over into the mortal realms causing unluck, strange events, chaotic distortions, hauntings, elemental and undead manifestations, tear the boundaries so demons can pass through, etc. So mana is the barrier keeping things in other dimensions? That's an interesting idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted April 6, 2017 Report Share Posted April 6, 2017 For the "someone else's wand" effect, you could just use a partially limited power. Say, you've got 50 active points in the spell, which is at full power if you're using your own wand, but only half-power if using someone else's wand. So you buy the first 25 points with, say, -3/4 Focus limitation (requires a wand), and the remaining 25 points with a higher Focus limitation, say -1 (requires *your* wand). The precise values of the limitations would depend on how difficult it is to find a "wand of opportunity", and how likely it is you won't have access to *your* wand. And of course, the power doesn't have to be split exactly in half. It could be 40 points with any old wand, but 50 with your own; or it could be 20 with any wand and 50 with your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stanfield Posted April 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2017 For the "someone else's wand" effect, you could just use a partially limited power. Say, you've got 50 active points in the spell, which is at full power if you're using your own wand, but only half-power if using someone else's wand. So you buy the first 25 points with, say, -3/4 Focus limitation (requires a wand), and the remaining 25 points with a higher Focus limitation, say -1 (requires *your* wand). The precise values of the limitations would depend on how difficult it is to find a "wand of opportunity", and how likely it is you won't have access to *your* wand. And of course, the power doesn't have to be split exactly in half. It could be 40 points with any old wand, but 50 with your own; or it could be 20 with any wand and 50 with your own. Hey, I like that idea! More to think about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted April 9, 2017 Report Share Posted April 9, 2017 One thing I have done is add a -1/4 limitation on all spells and even some magic items and that is Requires Mana. There are areas in the realm that doesn't have mana or has had all the mana used. If it regenerates itself or simply appear in these areas is unknown at the present time, thus the limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 There is a rule: If a weapon is made to do more than double the damage of the weapon, then the weapon breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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