Duplication question.

[GCMorris]

I didn't find an answer to this in my search and was hoping you folks could clue me in. I'm using 4e rules and it states that a duplicate has all the powers and abilities of the original character...does that mean each dupe can create more dupes? The rules dont mention anything about it but it would seem only fair because other powers are duplicated.

 

Help a guy out.

[Hyper-Man]

I didn't find an answer to this in my search and was hoping you folks could clue me in. I'm using 4e rules and it states that a duplicate has all the powers and abilities of the original character...does that mean each dupe can create more dupes? The rules dont mention anything about it but it would seem only fair because other powers are duplicated.

 

Help a guy out.

 

See the 3rd paragraph from the Power description.

 

From HERO System 4e page 64:

DUPLICATION

A character with this Special Power can create duplicates of himself. Each duplicate is as free-willed as the original character, and the player can run each Duplicate simultaneously.

 

The player must make up a different full character for each different form the character can take. The character must choose one of the forms to be the base form; this will be the one built on the most total points. To gain another form, the base character must pay 2 Character Point for every 5 Points in his second form. The minimum cost for a second form is 20 Character Points. For his third and succeeding forms, the base character should pay 1 Character Point for every 5 total points in the new form(s). The minimum cost for the third and succeeding forms is 10 points per form.

 

The maximum total points the second and succeeding forms can each have is equal to the total points in the base form, minus the Duplication cost.

 

HM

[GCMorris]

Its a bit murky isn't it? It says minus the cost but it doesn't say they can't duplicate into weaker forms. The rule says the forms should be built within the same constraints as the original but its not a firm answer.

[Hyper-Man]

What's murky about it?

Only the base form can use the Duplication Power.

 

If you need further proof then here's an excerpt from the 5er version.

 

From 5er Page 152:

DUPLICATION
Type: Special Power/Body-Affecting Power
Duration: Persistent
Target: Self Only
Range: Self
Costs END: No
Cost: 1 Character Point per 5 Character Points in the base character, up to 2x the number of Duplicates for every +5 Character Points

A character with this Special Power can create duplicates of himself, which may have the same or different abilities than he does. Examples include a mutant superhero who can produce “carbon copies” of himself, a wizard with a spell that lets him separate his “astral form” from his body, or the ability to create a “double” of one’s self out of psychokinetic energy. Duplication does not cost END to use.

For purposes of Duplication, the original character — the character who “produces” the Duplicates — is the “base character.” The base character creates all Duplicates; Duplicates do not come from other Duplicates.

 

HM

[Surrealone]

Its a bit murky isn't it? It says minus the cost but it doesn't say they can't duplicate into weaker forms. The rule says the forms should be built within the same constraints as the original but its not a firm answer.

No, it's not murky at all. 

 

Per 4e page 64 (blue and red emphasis added by me):

 

The player must make up a different full character for each different form the character can take. The character must choose one of the forms to be the base form; this will be the one built on the most total points. To gain another form, the base character must pay 2 Character Point for every 5 Points in his second form. The minimum cost for a second form is 20 Character Points. For his third and succeeding forms, the base character should pay 1 Character Point for every 5 total points in the new form(s). The minimum cost for the third and succeeding forms is 10 points per form.

 

Per this section, clearly additional duplicates are intended to come from the base form.  If that were not the case, the section I emphasized in red would not be needed ... as the each duplicate would, instead, simply be a base form to its first (weaker) duplicate ... and adhere to the section I emphasized in blue.  

 

Thankfully, you don't get endless weaker duplicates for buying Duplication on the base form, as that would be moronic.

[steriaca]

In 6ed, special effects and special adders/advantages alowes othemr duplicates to duplicate. But the cost of duplication is always payed by the base character.

[Surrealone]

In 6ed, special effects and special adders/advantages alowes othemr duplicates to duplicate. But the cost of duplication is always payed by the base character.

Out of curiosity, how do you figure?  Can you show me where you're getting this?  i.e. Does 6e v1 say something (else) that's part of the base rules, not an example, and missing in CC?  (i.e. Yet another absent rule detail in the supposedly complete "Champions Complete"???)

 

I'm asking because...

 

Per CC page 59 (emphasis added in red by me):

For purposes of Duplication, the original character – the character who “produces” the Duplicates – is the “base character.” The base character creates all Duplicates; Duplicates do not come from other Duplicates.

 

​i.e. CC doesn't go on to say anything else about adders/advantages allowing Duplicates to duplicate...

[steriaca]

No, they don't. But on page 60 of Champions Complete, there is the advantage Ranged Recombination (a +1/2 advantage). Coupled with Ranged (page 113 of Champions Complete, a +1/2 advantage) and the magic of special effects, then you can simulate a 'duplicating duplicate'. Of course, with the GM's approval.

 

One could also simply create a Ranged Division advantage (if Ranged Recombination is a +1/2 advantage, then so should be Ranged Division, except you are required to buy Ranged Recombination first). And let the magic of Special Effect AND GM Approval work.

 

Beyond these ways, there is no other way to create duplicating duplicates. Unless it is a special effect of another power (Blast defined as creating a duplicate, the duplicate doing a physical attack, and the duplicate recombining right away. Extra Limbs defined as a partially duplicated body which is quickly reabsorbed when the limb is no longer needed.)

[Surrealone]

 

No, they don't. But on page 60 of Champions Complete, there is the advantage Ranged Recombination (a +1/2 advantage). Coupled with Ranged (page 113 of Champions Complete, a +1/2 advantage) and the magic of special effects, then you can simulate a 'duplicating duplicate'. Of course, with the GM's approval.

The ability to recombine at range is, indeed, in RAW.  The same cannot be said for the ability to Duplicate at range ... but I must admit to having never considered applying the 'Ranged' Advantage to Duplication.

 

Nice!  I like it!

[aylwin13]

6E1, Pg. 203 specifically states:

 

 

"Ranged: Characters cannot buy this Advantage for Duplication."

[Surrealone]

6E1, Pg. 203 specifically states:

Chalk up another RAW omission from CC, then ... because CC says no such thing.  I'm getting tired of wondering which one wins when CC and 6e v1/2 conflict ... especially since there's a crowd here that says they're both current/valid.

[steriaca]

Chalk up another RAW omission from CC, then ... because CC says no such thing. I'm getting tired of wondering which one wins when CC and 6e v1/2 conflict ... especially since there's a crowd here that says they're both current/valid.

As a GM, you can allow Ranged for this power. Or do what I suggest, and buy Ranged Recombine, then a new advantage to repersent creating a duplicate at range. Since your special effect your going for is 'duplicates can duplicate also', the first duplicate needs to appear next to base character, but after that, with Ranged Division or the Ranged advantage the duplicate can appear right next to the duplicate.

 

If your not a GM, then check with your GM. This sounds like a subject for the APG 3. Unforcently the chances of it being published are nill.

[Doc Democracy]

You know, you are not really looking for ranged duplication (that is, creating a duplicate at a distance from the source of duplication), you are simply looking to allow duplicates to spawn from a duplicate rather than the base character.

 

Obviously, this us kind of like duplication at range. I think as GM, I would be happier allowing the change in spawning Point than ranged duplication, so might charge the same advantage as ranged for allowing a duplicate to be the spawn point of duplicates (without adding to the total number of duplicates available).

 

Doc

[Hadmar von Wieser]

How about we buy DUPLICATION twice? The base character has it to create 1. Generation Duplicates, those have it to create 2. Generation, and possibly so on.
Of course that way they would degrade in power. My clone's clone's clone's clone's clone's clones wouldn't be much more than a shadow of my self.
But that would be rather fitting for the way most cases of "me populating the universe" are depicted, anyhow. We all have the impression that individuality watered down somehow makes you less, don't we?
 

[Surrealone]

How about we buy DUPLICATION twice? The base character has it to create 1. Generation Duplicates, those have it to create 2. Generation. Of course that way the would degrade in power. But that would be rather fitting for the way most cases of "me populating the universe" are depicted, anyhow. We al have the impression that individuality watered down somehow makes you less, don't we?

IIRC that is the one legit way to actually have duplicates create duplicates.  I'd think it would require the Altered Duplicates advantage, too.

[dsatow]

Why not just buy ranged summon?

[steriaca]

Why not just buy ranged summon?

Cause that would make sence.

[Surrealone]

But what are you summoning?

[steriaca]

But what are you summoning?

Self.

[Surrealone]

Self.

I believe there's a name for Summoning oneself at range: Teleport.

[steriaca]

I believe there's a name for Summoning oneself at range: Teleport.

I believe there's a name for Summoning oneself at range without physically moving: Duplication.

 

Anyways, there is a Jojo character which can summon alternative versions of himself. President Funny Valentine and his stand D4C (Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheep).

[bigdamnhero]

I'm getting tired of wondering which one wins when CC and 6e v1/2 conflict ...

Whichever one works best for your game, obviously; it's not like either is Unquestionable Holy Writ. Of course CC is not going to have all the examples/specifics of 6e1 - that's kindof a feature not a bug.

 

As for duplicates creating duplicates: could you simulate that by putting Indirect on Duplication? That way mechanically all duplicates come from the base character as per RAW, but as sfx they can appear next to duplicate characters if you want?

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I would personally do this a different way. I might allow a player who would want this to buy the adder Alternate Origin Point for this particular effect. Not necessarily RAW, but we can't really make a RAW effect this anyway. 

[bigdamnhero]

Yeah, that's what I was aiming for with Indirect, but calling it Alternate Origin Point is probably cleaner & more explicit.

[Hugh Neilson]

When CC and 6e conflict, and assuming I cannot live without a definitive "RAW/RAI" answer, rather than ruling whatever works for my group (both tell you all the rules are subject to modification, so technically all rule modifications are RAW ), then I would first look to whether CC and 6e are contradictory, or whether one is simply explained in more detail. The goal of CC was to reduce the size by reducing the detail.

 

As an example (not sure if CC covers this), if CC does not say "1 point penetrating KA does 1 BOD every time unless the target has resistant defenses", but does not say what 1 point penetrating KA does, then 6e does not contradict CC, it elaborates on a case CC chooses not to cover.

 

I also look back to Derek Heimforth's comments that 6e remains the rules, and the only change he made in CC was to eliminate Classes of Mind. If the author says 6e is definitive, I suggest RAI is that 6e is definitive, so 6e wins if there is a conflict, except for Classes of Mind.