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Roll with punch


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So Roll with Punch . . . 

 

Have you guys ever used it and if you do/did, did you make it take an action?

 

The wording on the maneuver makes it sound like it could either take an action, or you just need to have an action to be able to do it.

 

Problem being, as my wife pointed out, if it takes an action, why would you ever Roll with Punch instead of just out right dodging.  By dodging, you don't get any modifiers to your roll and you don't take any damage AT all.

 

So are we missing something?

 

Thanks for the assist

 

Van

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I believe that the maneuver offers a 'middle-ground' for players that want to take the chance that their PC has a good enough DCV to avoid getting hit and thus saving their action.

 

RWP is the only maneuver that can be aborted to after the dice have been rolled.  Any other abort action like Block, Dodge and DFC all have to be declared before the dice are rolled.

 

HM

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So Roll with Punch . . . 

 

Have you guys ever used it and if you do/did, did you make it take an action?

 

The wording on the maneuver makes it sound like it could either take an action, or you just need to have an action to be able to do it.

 

Problem being, as my wife pointed out, if it takes an action, why would you ever Roll with Punch instead of just out right dodging.  By dodging, you don't get any modifiers to your roll and you don't take any damage AT all.

 

So are we missing something?

 

Thanks for the assist

 

Van

Yes. This.

 

 

I believe that the maneuver offers a 'middle-ground' for players that want to take the chance that their PC has a good enough DCV to avoid getting hit and thus saving their action.

 

RWP is the only maneuver that can be aborted to after the dice have been rolled.  Any other abort action like Block, Dodge and DFC all have to be declared before the dice are rolled.

 

HM

Also, I used it once as a martial maneuver basis, although technically it's not on the list of maneeuvers that can be so used.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary, enjoying the party, has rolls with the punch.

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we had a lot of bricks in our old campaigns, and we used this a lot, because 1.) at the time you got half damage for the maneuver, but (and I may be remembering incorrectly), you got double knockback?  it's the only maneuver you could get after the to hit and damage was rolled, but it also took your next action.

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Thanks guys.

 

Didn't notice it could be used after a successful hit (although it makes sense that it would).

 

I can see where it would have its use but like Christopher Taylor said, it's effect is now usually modeled with other powers.

Thanks guys.

 

Didn't notice it could be used after a successful hit (although it makes sense that it would).

 

I can see where it would have its use but like Christopher Taylor said, it's effect is now usually modeled with other powers.

It's still an option available to someone who didn't spend points on such powers, and for that matter, there's nothing I know of that keeps it from stacking.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys maximized Damage Reduction then Rolls with the Punch to take 1/8 damage

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It's an often overlooked maneuver.  To avoid that I included it in the write up for my rookie version of Spider-Man.
 

0    5)  Spidey Reflexes part 3: Roll With A Punch (Custom Adder) 

[Notes: Optional Free Maneuver From Champions Complete page 154.  (½ Phase; -2 OCV; -2 DCV)
Allows a character to take less damage from a HTH attack. This Maneuver is unique because a character may perform it after the opponent’s Attack Roll succeeds (but before he rolls damage). The Rolling character attempts an Attack Roll against the attacker’s OCV (like Block). If successful, he takes only half the STUN and BODY that the attack would have normally done (after defenses). However, the attacker rolls one less die for Knockback. A character can only Roll With A Punch to reduce the effects of a single attack.]

 

HM

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It's still an option available to someone who didn't spend points on such powers, and for that matter, there's nothing I know of that keeps it from stacking.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys maximized Damage Reduction then Rolls with the Punch to take 1/8 damage

 

That is true too.

 

And unless the GM rules otherwise, I don't see why it wouldn't stack as well. 

 

I wasn't planning on removing the ability to RWP, was just trying to figure out why/when someone would use it instead of some of the other defensive options that seem "better".

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does Rules As Written allow you to Roll With Punch against area affect attacks?

Of course.

 

The thing with rolling with a punch, all it really does is save you Stun. You abort your next action, so it's like being Stunned. All it can do is (hopefully) reduce the amount of Stun you take to avoid being knocked out. Hence why people rarely use it -- it's very situational.

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does Rules As Written allow you to Roll With Punch against area affect attacks?

 

Yes if you mean an HTH attack with the AOE Advantage.

 

Roll With A Punch can only be used against an HTH attack.  Example: an attack that happens to be a giant fist from a character with enough Growth to make their fists AOE.  But it would not work against other types of attacks that just happen to have the AOE Advantage.

 

:)

HM

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Of course.

 

The thing with rolling with a punch, all it really does is save you Stun. You abort your next action, so it's like being Stunned. All it can do is (hopefully) reduce the amount of Stun you take to avoid being knocked out. Hence why people rarely use it -- it's very situational.

 

Well, when you're Stunned, you're 1/2 DCV plus all your non-persistent powers and skill levels go away (possibly further reducing your DCV).  If you're using Hit Locs, Hit Location penalties are halved against you as well.  Given all that, I'd much rather RWP than be Stunned.

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I've seen it used in my games - especially in late phases by 'regeneration scrapper' type characters.  As mentioned since you don't need to decide until the attack hits they tended to hold their actions until they were attacked - if they were missed, they'd attack. If they were hit they'd try and roll with it.  The idea was, combined with their pd/ed, to reduce damage to a point where they would go back to full stun on the post 12 recovery.

 

Ie: Fakeverine with pd/ed 20, recovery 30, and a DCV of 8 gets attacked  6 times in the phase by Nin-Jar (ocv 8), 12d6 attack.  In theory Fakeverine will be hit 3 times. Without rolling with the punches Fakeverine can expect to take a healthy 16 stun a hit (48 stun) and be a little wobbly before he recovers 30 (which makes Nin-Jar cry anways but at least he's making headway).  

 

If Fakey rolls with the punches successfully on the segments he gets hit that is reduced to 8 per hit (24 stun) and his mighty mutant REC eats it for breakfast post 12.

 

If Fakey gets unlucky and is hit all six times he'd have taken 96 (and might be taking a nice nap) and might not even get to use the post 12 recovery. If he rolled with it all, though, he'd be wobbly at 48 stun taken before his recovery takes him to 18.  That's a pretty hefty difference.

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Well, when you're Stunned, you're 1/2 DCV plus all your non-persistent powers and skill levels go away (possibly further reducing your DCV).  If you're using Hit Locs, Hit Location penalties are halved against you as well.  Given all that, I'd much rather RWP than be Stunned.

 

Well massey did say "like".

 

But that's where the original question game from. With the maneuver being something that you lost your next action with, we really couldn't see the advantages for using it when you could just abort to dodge or block.  There by avoiding, possibly, all damage altogether.

 

Couple that with the fact that it also has a CV penalty (at least in Hero System 6th) and we just couldn't see why it would be a choice.  Which, to me, just further puts it into the "extremely situational" category that massey said.

 

 

We had a campaign where just about everyone would do this or block as an abort.  Why?  Because it seemed like aborting to dodge never worked and they would hit us anyways,  It started a trend in saying "Dodging is useless." at our games.

 

That's weird.

 

In our games, Aborting to dodge usually works.  Of course there are those rare exceptions where we would still get hit but those were few and far between.

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Well massey did say "like".

 

But that's where the original question game from. With the maneuver being something that you lost your next action with, we really couldn't see the advantages for using it when you could just abort to dodge or block.  There by avoiding, possibly, all damage altogether.

 

Couple that with the fact that it also has a CV penalty (at least in Hero System 6th) and we just couldn't see why it would be a choice.  Which, to me, just further puts it into the "extremely situational" category that massey said.

 

Keep in mind that my last response was solely in regards to comparing RwP to being Stunned (and -2 DCV is usually much more benign than loosing all  your CSLs and then 1/2 DCV plus losing your Force Field or the like). Others, earlier in the thread, already addressed the fact that RwP can be declared after being hit, while Block and Dodge must be declared before.

 

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Keep in mind that my last response was solely in regards to comparing RwP to being Stunned (and -2 DCV is usually much more benign than loosing all  your CSLs and then 1/2 DCV plus losing your Force Field or the like). Others, earlier in the thread, already addressed the fact that RwP can be declared after being hit, while Block and Dodge must be declared before.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

Although RwP doesn't incur DCV penalties your point is well taken.

 

Being able to declare an action after the to-hit roll is done is a plus but I'm not thinking it's enough of one to make it a staple in our game.  Again, situationally it might crop up and it's good to know it exists but I doubt it will see much mileage. 

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Ie: Fakeverine with pd/ed 20, recovery 30, and a DCV of 8 gets attacked  6 times in the phase by Nin-Jar (ocv 8), 12d6 attack.  In theory Fakeverine will be hit 3 times. Without rolling with the punches Fakeverine can expect to take a healthy 16 stun a hit (48 stun) and be a little wobbly before he recovers 30 (which makes Nin-Jar cry anways but at least he's making headway).

[PEDANTIC MATH GEEK]Nin-Jar needs an 11- to hit, which is 62.5% likely, so he should hit 3.75 times out of 6 on average. That means, most turns, Fakeverine rolls four times and attacks twice.

 

That's weird.

 

In our games, Aborting to dodge usually works.  Of course there are those rare exceptions where we would still get hit but those were few and far between.

It depends on how close the average OCV and DCV are. I've played with players who hate to miss (so OCV 2 or 3 higher, or more, than campaign norm DCV) and prefer to soak damage than avoid it (so high defenses, low DCV). If characters tend to have equal OCV and DCV (pre-6e, the definite norm!) and most buy 3 - 5 OCV levels (2 pointers, maybe) for their main attacks, Dodge is a lot less useful.

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It depends on how close the average OCV and DCV are. I've played with players who hate to miss (so OCV 2 or 3 higher, or more, than campaign norm DCV) and prefer to soak damage than avoid it (so high defenses, low DCV). If characters tend to have equal OCV and DCV (pre-6e, the definite norm!) and most buy 3 - 5 OCV levels (2 pointers, maybe) for their main attacks, Dodge is a lot less useful.

True.

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