Vanguard Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 So Roll with Punch . . . Have you guys ever used it and if you do/did, did you make it take an action? The wording on the maneuver makes it sound like it could either take an action, or you just need to have an action to be able to do it. Problem being, as my wife pointed out, if it takes an action, why would you ever Roll with Punch instead of just out right dodging. By dodging, you don't get any modifiers to your roll and you don't take any damage AT all. So are we missing something? Thanks for the assist Van Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 I believe that the maneuver offers a 'middle-ground' for players that want to take the chance that their PC has a good enough DCV to avoid getting hit and thus saving their action. RWP is the only maneuver that can be aborted to after the dice have been rolled. Any other abort action like Block, Dodge and DFC all have to be declared before the dice are rolled. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 So Roll with Punch . . . Have you guys ever used it and if you do/did, did you make it take an action? The wording on the maneuver makes it sound like it could either take an action, or you just need to have an action to be able to do it. Problem being, as my wife pointed out, if it takes an action, why would you ever Roll with Punch instead of just out right dodging. By dodging, you don't get any modifiers to your roll and you don't take any damage AT all. So are we missing something? Thanks for the assist Van Yes. This. I believe that the maneuver offers a 'middle-ground' for players that want to take the chance that their PC has a good enough DCV to avoid getting hit and thus saving their action. RWP is the only maneuver that can be aborted to after the dice have been rolled. Any other abort action like Block, Dodge and DFC all have to be declared before the dice are rolled. HM Also, I used it once as a martial maneuver basis, although technically it's not on the list of maneeuvers that can be so used. Lucius Alexander the palindromedary, enjoying the party, has rolls with the punch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 Actually yeah I had a speedster that used it a lot, to avoid serious damage. Its a good martial artist trick as well, although people tend to build it now with damage reduction and combat luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 we had a lot of bricks in our old campaigns, and we used this a lot, because 1.) at the time you got half damage for the maneuver, but (and I may be remembering incorrectly), you got double knockback? it's the only maneuver you could get after the to hit and damage was rolled, but it also took your next action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted February 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 Thanks guys. Didn't notice it could be used after a successful hit (although it makes sense that it would). I can see where it would have its use but like Christopher Taylor said, it's effect is now usually modeled with other powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 Thanks guys. Didn't notice it could be used after a successful hit (although it makes sense that it would). I can see where it would have its use but like Christopher Taylor said, it's effect is now usually modeled with other powers. Thanks guys. Didn't notice it could be used after a successful hit (although it makes sense that it would). I can see where it would have its use but like Christopher Taylor said, it's effect is now usually modeled with other powers. It's still an option available to someone who didn't spend points on such powers, and for that matter, there's nothing I know of that keeps it from stacking. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary buys maximized Damage Reduction then Rolls with the Punch to take 1/8 damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 It's an often overlooked maneuver. To avoid that I included it in the write up for my rookie version of Spider-Man. 0 5) Spidey Reflexes part 3: Roll With A Punch (Custom Adder) [Notes: Optional Free Maneuver From Champions Complete page 154. (½ Phase; -2 OCV; -2 DCV)Allows a character to take less damage from a HTH attack. This Maneuver is unique because a character may perform it after the opponent’s Attack Roll succeeds (but before he rolls damage). The Rolling character attempts an Attack Roll against the attacker’s OCV (like Block). If successful, he takes only half the STUN and BODY that the attack would have normally done (after defenses). However, the attacker rolls one less die for Knockback. A character can only Roll With A Punch to reduce the effects of a single attack.] HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted February 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 It's still an option available to someone who didn't spend points on such powers, and for that matter, there's nothing I know of that keeps it from stacking. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary buys maximized Damage Reduction then Rolls with the Punch to take 1/8 damage That is true too. And unless the GM rules otherwise, I don't see why it wouldn't stack as well. I wasn't planning on removing the ability to RWP, was just trying to figure out why/when someone would use it instead of some of the other defensive options that seem "better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted February 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 It's an often overlooked maneuver. To avoid that I included it in the write up for my rookie version of Spider-Man. HM Oh most certainly. And even if it's not used all the time, there's that one time when a player might remember it and it saves their bacon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 does Rules As Written allow you to Roll With Punch against area affect attacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 does Rules As Written allow you to Roll With Punch against area affect attacks? Of course. The thing with rolling with a punch, all it really does is save you Stun. You abort your next action, so it's like being Stunned. All it can do is (hopefully) reduce the amount of Stun you take to avoid being knocked out. Hence why people rarely use it -- it's very situational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 does Rules As Written allow you to Roll With Punch against area affect attacks? Yes if you mean an HTH attack with the AOE Advantage. Roll With A Punch can only be used against an HTH attack. Example: an attack that happens to be a giant fist from a character with enough Growth to make their fists AOE. But it would not work against other types of attacks that just happen to have the AOE Advantage. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 HRUMPH - we need to get rid of that SFX based restriction on a combat maneuver. You can't Roll With a thrown rock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 It's an optional rule already in GM Permission territory so no big deal if a GM wants to modify it for their game. I am just pointing out the details of what the RAW say since that was the question. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Of course. The thing with rolling with a punch, all it really does is save you Stun. You abort your next action, so it's like being Stunned. All it can do is (hopefully) reduce the amount of Stun you take to avoid being knocked out. Hence why people rarely use it -- it's very situational. Well, when you're Stunned, you're 1/2 DCV plus all your non-persistent powers and skill levels go away (possibly further reducing your DCV). If you're using Hit Locs, Hit Location penalties are halved against you as well. Given all that, I'd much rather RWP than be Stunned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 We had a campaign where just about everyone would do this or block as an abort. Why? Because it seemed like aborting to dodge never worked and they would hit us anyways, It started a trend in saying "Dodging is useless." at our games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 I've seen it used in my games - especially in late phases by 'regeneration scrapper' type characters. As mentioned since you don't need to decide until the attack hits they tended to hold their actions until they were attacked - if they were missed, they'd attack. If they were hit they'd try and roll with it. The idea was, combined with their pd/ed, to reduce damage to a point where they would go back to full stun on the post 12 recovery. Ie: Fakeverine with pd/ed 20, recovery 30, and a DCV of 8 gets attacked 6 times in the phase by Nin-Jar (ocv 8), 12d6 attack. In theory Fakeverine will be hit 3 times. Without rolling with the punches Fakeverine can expect to take a healthy 16 stun a hit (48 stun) and be a little wobbly before he recovers 30 (which makes Nin-Jar cry anways but at least he's making headway). If Fakey rolls with the punches successfully on the segments he gets hit that is reduced to 8 per hit (24 stun) and his mighty mutant REC eats it for breakfast post 12. If Fakey gets unlucky and is hit all six times he'd have taken 96 (and might be taking a nice nap) and might not even get to use the post 12 recovery. If he rolled with it all, though, he'd be wobbly at 48 stun taken before his recovery takes him to 18. That's a pretty hefty difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted February 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Well, when you're Stunned, you're 1/2 DCV plus all your non-persistent powers and skill levels go away (possibly further reducing your DCV). If you're using Hit Locs, Hit Location penalties are halved against you as well. Given all that, I'd much rather RWP than be Stunned. Well massey did say "like". But that's where the original question game from. With the maneuver being something that you lost your next action with, we really couldn't see the advantages for using it when you could just abort to dodge or block. There by avoiding, possibly, all damage altogether. Couple that with the fact that it also has a CV penalty (at least in Hero System 6th) and we just couldn't see why it would be a choice. Which, to me, just further puts it into the "extremely situational" category that massey said. We had a campaign where just about everyone would do this or block as an abort. Why? Because it seemed like aborting to dodge never worked and they would hit us anyways, It started a trend in saying "Dodging is useless." at our games. That's weird. In our games, Aborting to dodge usually works. Of course there are those rare exceptions where we would still get hit but those were few and far between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Well massey did say "like". But that's where the original question game from. With the maneuver being something that you lost your next action with, we really couldn't see the advantages for using it when you could just abort to dodge or block. There by avoiding, possibly, all damage altogether. Couple that with the fact that it also has a CV penalty (at least in Hero System 6th) and we just couldn't see why it would be a choice. Which, to me, just further puts it into the "extremely situational" category that massey said. Keep in mind that my last response was solely in regards to comparing RwP to being Stunned (and -2 DCV is usually much more benign than loosing all your CSLs and then 1/2 DCV plus losing your Force Field or the like). Others, earlier in the thread, already addressed the fact that RwP can be declared after being hit, while Block and Dodge must be declared before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted February 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 Keep in mind that my last response was solely in regards to comparing RwP to being Stunned (and -2 DCV is usually much more benign than loosing all your CSLs and then 1/2 DCV plus losing your Force Field or the like). Others, earlier in the thread, already addressed the fact that RwP can be declared after being hit, while Block and Dodge must be declared before. Fair enough. Although RwP doesn't incur DCV penalties your point is well taken. Being able to declare an action after the to-hit roll is done is a plus but I'm not thinking it's enough of one to make it a staple in our game. Again, situationally it might crop up and it's good to know it exists but I doubt it will see much mileage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 Its good for those "Seeker vs Grond" moments when you're keeping someone busy so the others can recover or set up a plan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 Ie: Fakeverine with pd/ed 20, recovery 30, and a DCV of 8 gets attacked 6 times in the phase by Nin-Jar (ocv 8), 12d6 attack. In theory Fakeverine will be hit 3 times. Without rolling with the punches Fakeverine can expect to take a healthy 16 stun a hit (48 stun) and be a little wobbly before he recovers 30 (which makes Nin-Jar cry anways but at least he's making headway). [PEDANTIC MATH GEEK]Nin-Jar needs an 11- to hit, which is 62.5% likely, so he should hit 3.75 times out of 6 on average. That means, most turns, Fakeverine rolls four times and attacks twice. That's weird. In our games, Aborting to dodge usually works. Of course there are those rare exceptions where we would still get hit but those were few and far between. It depends on how close the average OCV and DCV are. I've played with players who hate to miss (so OCV 2 or 3 higher, or more, than campaign norm DCV) and prefer to soak damage than avoid it (so high defenses, low DCV). If characters tend to have equal OCV and DCV (pre-6e, the definite norm!) and most buy 3 - 5 OCV levels (2 pointers, maybe) for their main attacks, Dodge is a lot less useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 I would like a Jam Roll with some Fruit Punch please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted February 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2017 It depends on how close the average OCV and DCV are. I've played with players who hate to miss (so OCV 2 or 3 higher, or more, than campaign norm DCV) and prefer to soak damage than avoid it (so high defenses, low DCV). If characters tend to have equal OCV and DCV (pre-6e, the definite norm!) and most buy 3 - 5 OCV levels (2 pointers, maybe) for their main attacks, Dodge is a lot less useful. True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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