New Player Questions

[MSAbaddon]

Hi,

First things first: I'm a totally new player, I bought the Basic Rulebook just a couple weeks ago.

While reading the rules quite a few questions came up concerning armor, weapons, combat maneuvers and powers.

 

Part 1: Armor, Weapons, Combat Maneuvers and Damage

• In a heroic campaign I just can buy a Full Plate and have 8 rPD and rED without any further costs, disadvantages or the need of buying some kind of "armor familiarity"?
• As far as I understand it costs no END to use a weapon if I don't use STR to add damage or do I have to pay the END for the STR minimum?
• If I add damage using STR I can choose how much STR I want to use to a maximum of doubling the weapons DC?
• If I have 25 STR and add 15 STR to a weapon with STR minimum 10 - do I have to pay END only for the 15 STR that exceed the STR minimum or do I have to pay END for the whole 25 STR?
• I can use combat maneuvers that add DCs with weapons (e.g. Haymaker) without extra costs?
• Do the extra DCs of a combat maneuver also have a limitation to a maximum of doubling the weapons DC? If there is a limitation, is this a separate one or does it add to the STR limitation? What about extra DCs bought? E.g. I use a Short Sword (1D6 killing damage), bought two additional DCs for martial maneuvers, have 25 STR and use the maneuver Offensive Strike. What damage does the attack do and how much END does it cost?

Part 2: Powers

• As far as I understood a weapon is nothing more than a pregenerated Killing Attack power?
• If I can use a weapon with a combat maneuver, does this mean I can also use other powers that require an attack roll with combat maneuvers, e.g. aid or drain? Or is this use limited to attack powers? If it is possible to use aid with a combat maneuver that increases DC, does this increase the effect of the power instead or does it only give benefits to OCV/DCV?
• The effect of Adjustment Powers that apply to Defense is halved. I don't quite understand the reason for this rule. Basically it means instead of AoE draining the enemy's DCV I instead just AoE aid the OCV of my allies with a much higher effect and less cost?

Part 3: Creating a power

• I just want to make sure that I did the Power creation correct.
• I want to build a bard's song that boosts the Speed of my allies in a 16m radius sticking to me.
  • Aid 4D6 Speed: Base cost 24
  • Advantages
    • Area of Effect (16m radius): +0,75
    • Selective: +0,5
    • Reduced END (halved): +0,25
    • Active cost: 24 * (1+1,5) = 60
  • Limitations
    • Boost: -0,5
    • No Range: -0,5
    • OAF (Flute): -1
    • Lockout (Other Songs): -0,5
    • Real cost: 60 / (1+2,5) = 17
  • END to activate/maintain power: 3

Hopefully someone can help me out.

 

Greetings

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Welcome aboard!  Thank you for joining us.  
 
 

Hi,
First things first: I'm a totally new player, I bought the Basic Rulebook just a couple weeks ago.
While reading the rules quite a few questions came up concerning armor, weapons, combat maneuvers and powers.
 
Part 1: Armor, Weapons, Combat Maneuvers and Damage

• In a heroic campaign I just can buy a Full Plate and have 8 rPD and rED without any further costs, disadvantages or the need of buying some kind of "armor familiarity"?

Correct.  (Edited)  Though armor in fantasy games usually takes the Real Armor and Mass Limitations, though you don't need any kind of skills or familiarity to use it.  (Unless the GM uses that kind of thing in their games, but most don't.)
 

• As far as I understand it costs no END to use a weapon if I don't use STR to add damage or do I have to pay the END for the STR minimum?

 

In most heroic level games, Endurance is not tracked.  It costs no END to use the weapon, but 1 END to use the Combat Maneuver (e.g. Strike), and then if you're adding any STR damage above the STR Minimum then you pay the END cost for that as well.  

 

 

• If I add damage using STR I can choose how much STR I want to use to a maximum of doubling the weapons DC?

 

Correct, more or less.  The maximum of doubling the weapon's DC is a highly recommended and often used optional rule.  See below for further commentary.

 

 

• If I have 25 STR and add 15 STR to a weapon with STR minimum 10 - do I have to pay END only for the 15 STR that exceed the STR minimum or do I have to pay END for the whole 25 STR?

 

Only for what exceeds the STR Minimum.  Edit by me: I may be incorrect here. 

 

 

• I can use combat maneuvers that add DCs with weapons (e.g. Haymaker) without extra costs?

 

Correct, although the maneuvers themselves may have their own requirements.  

 

• Do the extra DCs of a combat maneuver also have a limitation to a maximum of doubling the weapons DC? If there is a limitation, is this a separate one or does it add to the STR limitation? What about extra DCs bought? E.g. I use a Short Sword (1D6 killing damage), bought two additional DCs for martial maneuvers, have 25 STR and use the maneuver Offensive Strike. What damage does the attack do and how much END does it cost?

 

Generally all part of the same doubling maximum.  Adding DCs to weapon damage is, complexity wise, more or less the HERO System's equivalent to AD&D's grappling rules; in editions up through 6th (which is what Basic is based on) it got more and more complicated, and was simplified somewhat for 6th.  I haven't actually memorized the rules for it myself.  

 

Part 2: Powers

• As far as I understood a weapon is nothing more than a pregenerated Killing Attack power?

 

Correct.  A weapon is almost always built with these Limitations:  Focus (OAF - Obvious Accessible Focus), Real Weapon, STR Minimum.  Modern and SF ranged weapons are usually also built with Charges to represent their magazine or power cells; fantasy missile weapons sometimes are as well, to represent a typical quiver size.  Magic weapons in fantasy games, and gadget-type weapons used by superheroes or supervillains in Champions games, are often built without Real Weapon and STR Minimum.  

 

 

• If I can use a weapon with a combat maneuver, does this mean I can also use other powers that require an attack roll with combat maneuvers, e.g. aid or drain? Or is this use limited to attack powers? If it is possible to use aid with a combat maneuver that increases DC, does this increase the effect of the power instead or does it only give benefits to OCV/DCV?

 

It depends on the Maneuver and the Power.  Generally, yes, with some caveats.  With Aid, you would Aid the Power, which would increase its effect.  We've had some recent discussion on this under the Haymaker topic on the HERO System Discussion board.  But yes, you could Aid an Attack Power (including a weapon, if appropriate to the Power), then use a Combat Maneuver with that same attack.

 

 

• The effect of Adjustment Powers that apply to Defense is halved. I don't quite understand the reason for this rule. Basically it means instead of AoE draining the enemy's DCV I instead just AoE aid the OCV of my allies with a much higher effect and less cost?

 

Correct.  Generally this is because you'd be Adjusting abilities that defend against the Adjustment Powers, which would effectively increase their effectiveness.  At the time the rule came about, you couldn't Adjust OCV and DCV directly, but it still applies in this case.  

 

 

Part 3: Creating a power

• I just want to make sure that I did the Power creation correct.
• I want to build a bard's song that boosts the Speed of my allies in a 16m radius sticking to me.
  • Aid 4D6 Speed: Base cost 24
  • Advantages
    • Area of Effect (16m radius): +0,75
    • Selective: +0,5
    • Reduced END (halved): +0,25
    • Active cost: 24 * (1+1,5) = 60
  • Limitations
    • Boost: -0,5
    • No Range: -0,5
    • OAF (Flute): -1
    • Lockout (Other Songs): -0,5
    • Real cost: 60 / (1+2,5) = 17
  • END to activate/maintain power: 3

 

Correct, with one slight exception: when determining END Cost, you don't count the cost of the Reduced Endurance Advantage.  Without that, your Power would cost 5 END, so adding it would reduce the END Cost to 2.5, which rounds to 2.  (Someone else may want to check me on that.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

The only things I'd add is

 

Encumbrance rules (if used -- and I highly recommend it) make heavy weapons and armor incur penalties on characters such as movement, END costs, and even DCV modifiers.

 

Only for what exceeds the STR Minimum.

 

 

I disagee: you pay END for the strength you use.  If you use 25 STR to wield a weapon, you pay for 25 STR.

 

As far as I understood a weapon is nothing more than a pregenerated Killing Attack power?

 

 

Some are normal attack (clubs, staves, etc).  For the most part, you can ignore all the build stuff though, just give the stats.

 

The effect of Adjustment Powers that apply to Defense is halved. I don't quite understand the reason for this rule.

 

 

Its a way of compensating for how powerful a drain to defenses can be, basically.

[Ndreare]

I would like to come in here just a little bit.

 

If you are playing Heroic level games do not use the Endurance rules. Many things in Hero can be considered optional or removed without much effort. The endurance rules are one of those things that in 20 years of play we really only track for Supers.

 

 

 

As for Encumbrance I agree a quick look will help you see why only very strong people wear plate armor.

 

 

For the rest the answers are already given. I hope you okay and enjoy the game.

[Netzilla]

Just adding an example...
 

you pay END for the strength you use.  If you use 25 STR to wield a weapon, you pay for 25 STR.

Let's say you have a Sword with a STR min of 10 and your character has a 25 STR.

 

If you don't add any extra damage via STR, you're only using 10 to wield the sword.  As a result, you only pay END on 10 STR.

If you use 5 extra strength to increase the sword's DC by 1, you're using 15 (10 to wield + 5 for the extra DC) and you pay END on 15 STR.

If you go all out and use all 25 STR for +3 DCs, you'll pay END on all 25 (10 to wield +15 for extra DCs).

[Christopher R Taylor]

If you are playing Heroic level games do not use the Endurance rules. 

 

 

As written in 6th edition, END is all but meaningless for heroic, so you can leave it off.

 

If you use the (recommended) optional 1 END/5 points rule instead, it can add a sense of gritty reality to the game -- you get tired in a fight, running, etc as is reasonable and believable.  Its all down to the kind of campaign you want.

 

Do you want a gritty, tough game where people get worn out in a long fight and have to rest?  Or a heroic game like a movie where people fight all day and never seem to notice?

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Let me also say welcome to tbe boards!

[JmOz]

First welcome to one of the greatest games.  I did notice a small mistake on your math for your aid example.  Using your values (Don't have them memorized)

 

you would be at +2 in advantages not +1.5

 

So

 

24 x (1+2=3)=72

72 / (1+2.5=3.5)=20.57 so rounded to 20 even (or 21 by some)

[JmOz]

First welcome to one of the greatest games.  I did notice a small mistake on your math for your aid example.  Using your values (Don't have them memorized)

 

you would be at +2 in advantages not +1.5

 

So

 

24 x (1+2=3)=72

72 / (1+2.5=3.5)=20.57 so rounded to 20 even (or 21 by some)

 

Nevermind...To tired, missed the 2 in .25

[MSAbaddon]

Thanks for all the infos, that really helped me a lot. I think I'll use the encumbrance rules and ignore END for the heroic campaign.

 

One more question regaring Boost and Suppress. If I ignore END, can I still use those variants of Aid and Drain?

[Cantriped]

One more question regaring Boost and Suppress. If I ignore END, can I still use those variants of Aid and Drain?

If you are ignoring Endurance, than not really, no. The main differences between Aid and Boost (or Drain and Suppress) are that Boost/Suppress cost END every Phase, cannot be "stacked" as easily, and come back instantly when the player ceases to maintain them; and all of these limitations cease to be meaningful if the player never runs out of END.

 

Regarding your earlier questions:

Regular & Martial Maneuvers do no inherently cost END (just like Weapons), but the Strength used to perform/wield them does.

 

It is worth noting that the "maximum of double your base damage" only applies to "mundane" weapons which take the Real Weapon limitation (it is a part of Real Weapon), so most super/magical weapons won't suffer from this limitation.

However, for your theoretical Short Sword example, its damage would hit its soft limit at 2d6 (6 DC), if you added more damage, the weapon would also take damage. Using the Short Sword from FHC 249: 1d6 HKA (the sword) + 25 STR (-10 for the Str Min) + Offensive Strike (+4 DCs) + 2 Extra DCs = 4d6 Killing (12 DCs). Since 4d6K is more than 2d6K, the weapon also takes damage. Being built on 23 APs, it has 4 rPD/4 rED (or 8 if the GM considers it a "Durable Focus"). 4d6K does 14 BODY on a perfectly average roll... snapping your Short Sword like a dry twig (regardless of whether or not it was considered Durable). If the GM is kind, the Short Sword will lose its 1m of Reach first, otherwise it breaks off at the hilt and becomes useless.

[MSAbaddon]

Hi,

thanks for the clarification 

[Chris Goodwin]

I would add that if you're using some way of determining how many Powers a character can have active at once (see Delayed Effect for an example of what I'm talking about) then you should be okay with using Boost and Suppress without END.  In previous editions, Suppress was its own Power, and Aid worked the way Boost does, so if each of them requires some kind of resource to maintain then you should be okay.  

[MSAbaddon]

Ok, so basically I wanted to create a bard that uses songs to boost his allies or hinder his enemies.

If I add lockout (other songs) to all songs the bard has it limits his powers to only one being active at any time. With this limitation added using boost and suppress without END should be ok?

[bigdamnhero]

Ok, so basically I wanted to create a bard that uses songs to boost his allies or hinder his enemies.

If I add lockout (other songs) to all songs the bard has it limits his powers to only one being active at any time. With this limitation added using boost and suppress without END should be ok?

Yeah, that can work too.

 

I'll be the minority vote in that I like using END for Heroic games, but you have to use the 1 END per 5 STR instead of 1 per 10, and be wary of letting characters buy their END & REC up too high.

 

OTOH, if you're looking to simplify things while learning the system, ignoring END is an easy way to do so.

[Lucius]

Ok, so basically I wanted to create a bard that uses songs to boost his allies or hinder his enemies.

If I add lockout (other songs) to all songs the bard has it limits his powers to only one being active at any time. With this limitation added using boost and suppress without END should be ok?

 

I think that should work, but if you're not the one running the game you should discuss it with whoever is.

 

Also you may find that Aid/Boost aren't necessarily the best way to go, depending on what exactly you are trying to do. You could, for example, buy Offensive Combat Vvalue with the Usable by Others Advantage to give all your friends a +1 or +2 to hit, or even buy Overall Skill Levels with Usable by Others to give them a bonus they can use for any roll they have to make or even to add to their Defensive Combat Value (as long as they don't try to use the bonus for two different things in a single phase.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius has been banned from playing a bard. And barred from playing in a band.

[bigdamnhero]

Also you may find that Aid/Boost aren't necessarily the best way to go, depending on what exactly you are trying to do. You could, for example, buy Offensive Combat Vvalue with the Usable by Others Advantage to give all your friends a +1 or +2 to hit, or even buy Overall Skill Levels with Usable by Others to give them a bonus they can use for any roll they have to make or even to add to their Defensive Combat Value (as long as they don't try to use the bonus for two different things in a single phase.)

Yeah, I'm actually this method more often than Aid/Boost these days, just for simplicity and to eliminate a dice roll. YMMV.

[dsatow]

I haven't found tracking END in Hero level games to be that problematic.  When you use say 12 STR to wield that Francisca, if you use 1 END/5 STR, you are spending 2 END to do 5 DCs of damage.  If you are using 1 END/10 STR, it becomes 1.

 

In my experience, in combat, most Heroic level games, players have 3-4 Speeds and Recoveries between 6 and 8.  So if, per phase, they are burning 3 END(1 for movement, 2 for strength), a 3 speed and 6 Rec character will be burning 3 End per turn.  At 30 End, then can go 10 turns or 2 minutes of constant fighting.  Most combats last between 1-5 turns (about 10-20 actions per player) in my experience.  My suggestion is to create the four traditional characters yourself and figure how much end they burn per turn as noted.  If they get tired after X turns and X sounds reasonable, then its fine.  If X is too short, reduce or remove the end cost.

 

I would ignore Long Term End costs unless the players are doing something they would not do unless they really have to.  For example: "We'll just march for 15 hours a day 7 days straight to get to the war in half the time."

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like Aid over UBO for a couple of reasons, mainly that it's fire and forget and has an absolute time limit: it goes away after a certain amount of time.

[MSAbaddon]

A big thanks to you guys for all the feedback, that really helped me alot 

[rjcurrie]

Yeah, I'm actually this method more often than Aid/Boost these days, just for simplicity and to eliminate a dice roll. YMMV.

 

I often use a Standard Effect Roll for Aid to eliminate the dice roll.