JasonPacker Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 So, this is really only relevant at pretty low levels I imagine, but in a low powered game full of normal folk it might come into play... Two combatants with base stats (STR, CON and BODY 10, CVs at 3, PD/ED 2, REC 4, 20 STUN and 20 END) 1) Under most circumstances, the fight will have to go on a LONG time before Long Term END use starts to kick in. Otherwise, we're firmly in able to fight forever territory 2) Average hits do 2 BODY and 7 STUN, which causes 5 STUN. It'll take a long time even with above average rolls, to get to 0 STUN, let alone -11 where a person'll stay down for a sec. 3) Every below average hit (0 or 1 BODY) is just as irrelevant, but every above average hit (3 or 4 BODY) slowly whittles away at the BODY score, which doesn't recover during combat. So two untrained guys beating each other up leads to nobody ever getting worn out, knockouts requiring a remarkable string of luck to happen at all, and the vast majority of fights ending with fully conscious characters beating one another to death. What am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 What am I missing? Well First off, you're very unlikely to see LTE burnt in a base Hero game, because its designed to be more "cinematic" that is, people keep going and doing impossibly tiring things without needing to stop and gasp for breath like we would in real life. You can apply optional rules that will tend to make that take place, but in its base form, Hero is more "heroic" and epic than gritty. While you are correct that above average hits will tend to get a bit of body through, that's a pretty exceptional roll on 2d6 (11-12) and not very likely (an 8.3% chance). For the rest of your rolls, its going to be 0-2 body, and deal no body damage at all to your Joe Average. Meanwhile the stun averages at 7, which means each hit nibbles 25% of the target's stun total away. While they get a free 4 points back at the end of each turn that's still average 6 stun down every turn, so nobody makes it to a minute before they are unconscious. In most cases, they'll have taken no body damage at all. And that's just average. A few good rolls (say that 11 or 12 above) and the target can even be stunned, losing their next phase of action, and suffering up to half their stun total in a single blow. Basically you are comparing a really great lucky shot for Body with average hits for Stun, and because of that you're getting skewed results. In 99% of fights, someone is down unconscious long before they're dying. Remember also that when you put a non-hero or non-"boss" down, they stay down in most campaigns. Even if they aren't the poor sap on the ground is 0 DCV and easy to get a good Haymaker on before they move again (which pushes the damage up into 6d6, or 21 stun average). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 What Chris said above is correct. Additionally, once a target is at under 0 stun, they're at 0 DCV and take double damage from attacks, so dropping them below -10 is pretty quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 So, this is really only relevant at pretty low levels I imagine, but in a low powered game full of normal folk it might come into play... Two combatants with base stats (STR, CON and BODY 10, CVs at 3, PD/ED 2, REC 4, 20 STUN and 20 END) 1) Under most circumstances, the fight will have to go on a LONG time before Long Term END use starts to kick in. Otherwise, we're firmly in able to fight forever territory 2) Average hits do 2 BODY and 7 STUN, which causes 5 STUN. It'll take a long time even with above average rolls, to get to 0 STUN, let alone -11 where a person'll stay down for a sec. 3) Every below average hit (0 or 1 BODY) is just as irrelevant, but every above average hit (3 or 4 BODY) slowly whittles away at the BODY score, which doesn't recover during combat. So two untrained guys beating each other up leads to nobody ever getting worn out, knockouts requiring a remarkable string of luck to happen at all, and the vast majority of fights ending with fully conscious characters beating one another to death. What am I missing? Missing? Well, in an average turn you will, after recoveries, have taken 6 STUN. After three turns both fighters will be at 2 STUN, one punch will finish this. Your average fight will resolve itself in less than a minute of game time. That does not seem very unlikely to me, they will not whale in each other for hours with little effect. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 Missing? Well, in an average turn you will, after recoveries, have taken 6 STUN. After three turns both fighters will be at 2 STUN, one punch will finish this. Your average fight will resolve itself in less than a minute of game time. This assumes every attack hits, but an 11- is a 62.5% chance. It also ignores optional rules like hit locations, etc. which seems fair as a starting point. So in an exactly average turn, we get 62.5% x 2 hits averaging 5 STUN past defenses = 6.25 STUN per turn, with a 4 REC leaving 2.25 STUN down. On average, both combatants will enter Turn 7 down 15 or 16 STUN. The first average hit will drop the target to 0 or -1 STUN. He's staggered, but still standing, at 0 to -10. So that's about a minute and a half before one target is down and the fight is over. Not much of a boxing match, is it? The attacker can use his Phase 12 strike to punch against 0 DCV, so 14-, which will miss less than 10% of the time. Since the opponent is KOd, he takes double STUN, so 12 STUN past defenses on an average hit, and he's on the floor. He'll bet a Post Segment 12 recovery, but take the next turn to actually recover, assuming the attacker backs off. But one great hit (1 chance in 36 to roll box cars and do 12 STUN, 4 BOD) will drop off half the opponent's STUN, while doing some lasting injury with that 2 BOD. No one will ever be Stunned, which would be a combat ender. Someone will likely end up KOd with a bit of BOD damage, and the winner might have some lasting injuries as well. It's a boring fight, though, if both characters just strike, strike, strike. That seems OK to me. But I would also note the game is designed around PC's, who are generally both tougher and hit harder. It's much more important how combat plays out for the stars of the show than the bit players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 So 2 untrained "Normals" will likely whale on each other ineffectually for several minutes until one of them gets in a lucky shot or gives up? Sounds like most of the real-life fights I've seen/been in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 Oh, also if you hit someone for 3-4 body, you also just hit them for 11-12 stun, so they took a hell of a blow. Yes, they lost body, but they also just lost 9-10 stun and may be stunned, with half their STN score gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 Another thing that could change up the pace of the fight is if one or both start blocking. At that point you could have several turns go by without either landing a blow. That one great hit mentioned earlier in another post could also be followed by a great location roll. Taking 3-4 BODY to a high multiplier location could end things in one blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 Yeah, if you add in optional rules, then END can be applied to 1 for every 5 active points (making LTE more likely), pushing is possible (increasing damage), and hit locations can as much as double stun from a punch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonPacker Posted March 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 Some of this was hit upon, but I want to lay out my assumptions 1) You're only landing 62.5% of your blows, as the Gadfly pointed out 2) Sensible folk block blows and use the momentum to go first next phase, forcing their opponent to block as well, dropping the average to 1 attack per turn and 1 defense, and the attack having more like a 23.5% chance of landing after the 11- block is allowed for. 3) All it takes is one die to come up a 6 to without the other being a 1 to get BODY through (25% chance of > 2 BODY) So you're only taking 1 shot a turn, you're landing the blow one time in four, and one in four of those hits does 1 BODY or so, you never get to STUN being remotely endangered, but 160 turns(!) later, you're both fresh as daisies and on the brink of bleeding to death from internal injuries. I did forget to take into account the hit location table - a few lucky random rolls there could definitely end a fight in a hurry, but the hypothetical average match-up sure does rely on dice luck to break out of that rut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 1) You're only landing 62.5% of your blows, as the Gadfly pointed out 2) Sensible folk block blows and use the momentum to go first next phase, forcing their opponent to block as well, dropping the average to 1 attack per turn and 1 defense, and the attack having more like a 23.5% chance of landing after the 11- block is allowed for. 3) All it takes is one die to come up a 6 to without the other being a 1 to get BODY through (25% chance of > 2 BODY) All true*, but lets look this over: 1) this is true whether you roll body or stun, so its irrelevant to the concern that people die in fights before they are unconscious. Further, as these are untrained noncombattant normals, one would not expect them to be particularly skillful; they're gonna miss a lot. 2) Sensible people would, but as they are unskilled normal noncombattants its not a normal urge, and further attempting a block is at a penalty, reducing its chance of effectiveness. But if they just stand and block each other successfully all day, still no relevance to your primary concern of body damage 3) Indeed, but when that 1 die comes up with a 6, it just dealt 6 STUN damage on its own, plus the average of 3.5 on the other die, for a considerable hit of stun. Making the target knocked out long before sustaining serious body damage. I'm not sure if you understand how damage works in Hero. That body damage is rolled on the same dice as stun. If you roll a 6 on the die for 2 body, you also rolled a 6 for 6 stun. So the stun damage is always and necessarily higher than the body damage, in every single case without exception. So the idea you're "fresh as daisies" and bleeding to death is simply not the case. It reads to me like you've looked at the rules but not actually played them to find out how it turns out in actual play. Give it a shot! You will find its quite effective and enjoyable. *As Palindromedary points out, the odds of one die rolling a 6 is just over 16%, not 25%. The odds of two dice doing so is 2.8% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 Some of this was hit upon, but I want to lay out my assumptions 3) All it takes is one die to come up a 6 to without the other being a 1 to get BODY through (25% chance of > 2 BODY) I suggest you question this assumption. In fact, I suggest that rather than assuming a 25% chance to do >2 BOD you do the math and find out that in fact, no, you don't have such a high probability of doing that much body rolling 2d6 of Normal Damage. you never get to STUN being remotely endangered, This is, I'm afraid, another unjustified assumption. You seem to be either unaware of or ignoring the fact that any blow doing significant BOD will also be doing enough STUN damage to make a difference. I did forget to take into account the hit location table - a few lucky random rolls there could definitely end a fight in a hurry, but the hypothetical average match-up sure does rely on dice luck to break out of that rut. Given the premise of two characters with absolutely identical combat abilities, the observation that the outcome will be decided by luck is certainly true but hardly surprising. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says if you're that keen on having two people fight to the death, you should try giving them knives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 The first person to get in a haymaker is going to lay the other one out cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 Which matches most of the fighting I've seen in real life, several little jabs or pushes to little effect and then someone gets their lights punched out and sits down in the street for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 Most of the time fights I've seen in real life either end with one good shot or on the ground wrestling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 It is also worth noting that the "Average Person" actually only has an 8 STR, 2 SPD, 2 PD, 4 REC, 15 END, 8 BODY, and 16 STUN (CC 207)... They are also -16-point Characters. A "Noteworthy Normal" on the other hand has baseline stats across the board (10 STR, 2 SPD, 2 PD, 4 REC, 20 END, 10 BODY, and 20 STUN) and is a 7-point Character only because they have 7 points worth of Skills. In a fight between two "Average People": Assuming neither Dodges (or uses any maneuver other than Strike), each has a 62.5% chance of hitting. Their Strikes deal a maximum of 3 BODY and 9 STUN (or 1 BODY and 7 STUN after defenses), and have a perfectly average result of 1.6 BODY and 5.25 STUN (or 0 BODY and 3 STUN after defenses and rounding). The chances of one of them actually dealing BODY damage to the other with a successful Strike is around 11% if I calculated it correctly (as the 1d6 has to have a result of 6, and the 1/2d6 has to have a result of 3-6 in order for the attack to cause 3 BODY). This chance drops to less than 7% (6.875%) if you include accuracy in the calculations... Any attack which actually caused BODY damage would also be causing a minimum of 8 STUN (6 STUN after defenses). If you account for Accuracy and SPD, and assume nothing but perfectly average Strike results... Each character suffers 0 BODY and 0 STUN every Turn until they finally get bored or tired and stop fighting. In a Superheroic Campaign they can go like this until they kill one another with above average results. In a Heroic Campaign with Long-Term Endurance they are burning 4 END per Turn (or up to 6 END per Turn if they also Move every Phase), and will suffer 1 LTE every Minute. Meaning they'll run out of END in 15 minutes under those circumstances. Once these Characters run out of END, they'll be suffering an additional 7 to 10.5 STUN per Turn (3 to 6.4 STUN after Recoveries) they continue fighting thereafter until they finally pass out no more than 6 Turns later. Over the course of fight's potential duration of up to 75 Turns, each combatant will take real damage (1 BODY and at least 6 STUN) about 5 times (5.15625); or once every three minutes (1 BODY per 15 Turns). Given the number of turns between each injury, it is quite likely that they'll have recovered any STUN taken before suffering another injury. In conclusion: A fight between two "Average People" in a Heroic Campaign using Long-Term Endurance rules will generally last no more than 16.2 Minutes (or 81 Turns). At which point both combatants will typically have 0/15 END (-15 LTE), 3/8 BODY, and -2/16 STUN. Although realistically whomever went last would likely end up with 1 STUN remaining by virtue of not having to attack after their opponent passed out. A fight between two "Average People" in a Superheroic Campaign will generally last no more than 25.6 Minutes (128 Turns), and will result in the death of both combatants due to internal bleeding (with 15/15 END, -8/8 BODY, and 16/16 STUN remaining). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 The chances of one of them actually dealing BODY damage to the other with a successful Strike is around 11% if I calculated it correctly Which you didn't. The link I've provided shows the odds for getting a 5 or 6 or a 6 and 6 on 2 dice at the same time, and its single digits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 Those tables (although very interesting, and useful) aren't actually very relevant to my calculation. Of the 36 possible results of 1 1/2d6 only 4 results actually cause 3 BODY: Total Result (9): [6] + [3/2] (3 BODY, 8 STUN) Total Result (10): [6] + [4/2] (3 BODY, 8 STUN) Total Result (11): [6] + [5/2] (3 BODY, 9 STUN) Total Result (12): [6] + [6/2] (3 BODY, 9 STUN) 4/36 = 0.11~ (ergo, 11%) If you include an Accuracy rate of 62.5% you end up with ~7% (6.875%) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 According to the rules, you only get a Body on a half die if you roll a 4-6 (HSR2 page 98). To get 3 body and thus 1 body past the normal 2 PD, you have to roll a 4 or higher on the half die and a 6 on the 1d6. The chance of rolling 10+ on 2d6 (4 or higher+6) is 16.7%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 According to the rules, you only get a Body on a half die if you roll a 4-6 (HSR2 page 98). To get 3 body and thus 1 body past the normal 2 PD, you have to roll a 4 or higher on the half die and a 6 on the 1d6. The chance of rolling 10+ on 2d6 (4 or higher+6) is 16.7%. And a 10+ on 2d6 COULD be a 6 and a 4....or could be a 5 and a 5, which results in 2 BOD. Not that I'm saying Cantriped is right, either. By my figures it's about 8.35 % chance for someone with STR of 8 to do their Max BOD damage. Lucius Alexander What are the odds of a palindromedary being right here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 This is true, the odds are even lower than 10+ suggests. In any case, the odds are very low. Personally I treat half dice as normal dice for counting body: you need to roll a 5-6 to get 1 body. I think previous editions said you had to get a 6? I can't recall exactly. But the way the rules are written you're better off rolling two ½d6 than 1d6 for body total Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 You are correct regarding Half-Dice of Normal Damage. I missed that part when I was double checking my rules for the above calculations. However the chance of causing BODY Damage to an "Average Person" with 1 1/2d6 is not 16.7% because only half of the 10+ results actually cause 3 BODY. Proof: Results of 10 on 1 1/2d6: [6]+[4/2] = (3 BODY & 8 STUN) | [5]+[5/2] = (2 BODY & 8 STUN) | [4]+[6/2] = (2 BODY & 7 STUN) Results of 11 on 1 1/2d6: [6]+[5/2] = (3 BODY & 9 STUN) | [5]+[6/2] = (2 BODY & 8 STUN) Results of 12 on 1 1/2d6: [6]+[6/2] = (3 BODY & 9 STUN) As you can see, only 3 of the 36 possible results for 1 1/2d6 actually cause 3 BODY. Therefore 3/36 = ~8.33%. If you include Accuracy, the chance of dealing BODY with any given Strike reduces to ~5.2%. Correcting my original calculations: Over the course of fight's potential duration of up to 75 Turns, each combatant will take real damage (1 BODY and at least 6 STUN) about 4 times (3.9); or once every four minutes (1 BODY per 18.75 Turns). Given the number of turns between each injury, it is quite likely that they'll have recovered any STUN taken before suffering another injury. In conclusion: A fight between two "Average People" in a Heroic Campaign using Long-Term Endurance rules will generally last no more than 16.2 Minutes (or 81 Turns). At which point both combatants will typically have 0/15 END (-15 LTE), 4/8 BODY, and -2/16 STUN. Although realistically whomever went last would likely end up with 1 STUN remaining by virtue of not having to attack after their opponent passed out. A fight between two "Average People" in a Superheroic Campaign will generally last no more than 33.6 Minutes (168 Turns), and will result in the death of both combatants due to internal bleeding (with 15/15 END, -8/8 BODY, and 16/16 STUN remaining). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 This is true, the odds are even lower than 10+ suggests. In any case, the odds are very low. Personally I treat half dice as normal dice for counting body: you need to roll a 5-6 to get 1 body. I think previous editions said you had to get a 6? I can't recall exactly. But the way the rules are written you're better off rolling two ½d6 than 1d6 for body total In CC/FHC you only cause 2 BODY on results of 6 (and cause 0 BODY on results of 1) (CC 156; FHC 183). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 A fight between two "Average People" in a Superheroic Campaign will generally last no more than 33.6 Minutes (168 Turns), and will result in the death of both combatants due to internal bleeding (with 15/15 END, -8/8 BODY, and 16/16 STUN remaining). You should probably update this to reflect the change in odds you noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 I did. The original value was "25.6 Minutes (128 Turns)". The end result is unchanged, all that changes after the correction in how long it takes for them to kill each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.