Damage on the Low End

[Christopher R Taylor]

Playing this out there are give and takes but the post-12 Recovery of 4 keeps zeroing it out.  Maybe sub-heroic normals should have a 3 recovery?  Every rare so often a body gets through, but yeah its going to take like half an hour to kill someone with your fists at this rate.

[Doc Democracy]

This is one of the problems of dealing with averages. At some point one of the combatants will hit and roll 12 Stun damage. With 2pd, than still stuns their opponent, allowing them to wind up a decent pushed attack doing enhanced damage with a substantial chance of taking them below 0 STUN. As a mook, that is the fight over...

[Cantriped]

Yeah dropping the REC of "Average People"  to 2 or 3 would be reasonable (and potentially result in much shorter fights).

It's also worth noting that these calculations don't represent "realistic fights". They ignore the fact that nobody is going to just keep trading Strikes until somebody falls over. Sometimes combatants will perform Haymakers, use Multiple Attacks, Abort to Dodge or Block etc...

[dsatow]

If you are using Heroic rules to simulate "reality", you should also include hit locations, wounding, knockdown, and bleeding rules.  Note that punches generally are high shots (2d6+1) on hit locations with kicks as low shots(2d6+7).

If using the optional rule to multiply damage before defenses, include impairment and disablement.

 

Using the optional rules will get you a more realistic fight.  For instance a punch of 8 stun to the head will stun the average normal.  If a character is stunned, note that they can do nothing but get unstunned.  Any stun taken ruins the recovery from being stunned.

 

Given these rules, usually, the first character to hit a stunning blow will win the fight.  From experience, I find this happens usually in 4-5 turns.

[dsatow]

BTW: I think HERO breaks down at the low end but in a different way.  Take two Lightweight Boxers using boxing gloves (which I would suspect are a reduced penetration limitation).  I sincerely doubt they would need twelves rounds of 2-3 minutes to KO the other person.  1 round is probably enough.

[Christopher R Taylor]

In this low end fight, I'd haymaker constantly, since I can absorb any hits pretty easily but one good 5½d6 punch will win the fight.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think HERO breaks down at the low end but in a different way.  Take two Lightweight Boxers using boxing gloves (which I would suspect are a reduced penetration limitation).  I sincerely doubt they would need twelves rounds of 2-3 minutes to KO the other person.  1 round is probably enough.

 

 

I'm not sure, it would be interesting to break down.  Boxers have really high CON, STUN, and PD scores, plus a pretty good recovery.  They do a lot of blocking and dodging, and not a lot of offense at the heavyweight level, but more at lightweight.

[Doc Democracy]

I think, for more realism, you might begin adding in LTE costs for, say, any blow that delivers 6+ STUN in one blow.  With dodging and blocking the boxer regularly getting a decent hit in, will wear down his opponent until they are spending STUN as END and one decent blow will lay them out...

 

...that might take the regulation number or rounds, or quicker if there is a mismatch.

 

 

It is not the kind of admin I want to do in my gametime though - I think I have said elsewhere that while I intellectually appreciate simulationist ideas in my games, the gameplay comes a long way ahead.

 

 

Doc

[Lucius]

 

If I had the whole system to do over, END and STUN might be the same pool of points.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests reflecting on such a pool

[Doc Democracy]

I kinda like the separation thought they are quite intimately connected in a number of ways.

[Cantriped]

I simply wish there were better optional rules for damaging Characteristics other than BODY & STUN. However I fear implementing them might require too many changes to Hero's core principles. As many of those kinds of attacks are firmly attached to their special effects, and firmly attaching game elements to special effects is contrary to Hero's core principles.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Body, Stun and Endurance being distinct and separate characteristics was at the time of Hero's writing a quantum leap in game design, and I still really like the system.  It simple yet effective in simulating events and effects.

[Hugh Neilson]

To me, the system is not designed so we play normals.

 

Normals can never STUN one another (max Stun of 9 - 2 defense = 7 vs 8 CON).

 

Haymaker adds far too much damage at this level (once it capped at double the base attack), but leaving yourself at -5 DCV invites a Grab, perhaps a Trip, or some other maneuver placing you at a disadvantage (or just a Haymaker in retaliation). A Block risks the haymaker getting through, but means I attack before you for sure next phase.

[dsatow]

At one point in my life, I was annoyed that HERO couldn't simulate a fight between two normal humans realistically.  But A friend told me, "Why?".  Paraphrased: Players expect to play HEROes thus the title of the game system.  Not DNPC. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Haymaker adds far too much damage at this level

 

 

I agree, it should cap at double damage.  Its hard for me to imagine a way a normal person could hit so hard and so effectively they more than triple their damage.

 

but leaving yourself at -5 DCV invites a Grab, perhaps a Trip, or some other maneuver placing you at a disadvantage (or just a Haymaker in retaliation). A Block risks the haymaker getting through, but means I attack before you for sure next phase.

 

 

If you land the haymaker, they won't have a next phase, they'll be stunned and nearly unconscious unless you really blow the roll. 

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree, it should cap at double damage.  Its hard for me to imagine a way a normal person could hit so hard and so effectively they more than triple their damage.

 

 

If you land the haymaker, they won't have a next phase, they'll be stunned and nearly unconscious unless you really blow the roll.

Emphasis added. You are not guaranteed to hit. He can Block, Dodge, or just move on his phase and hope he wins the DEX roll off in your next joint phase. Then he gets to attack your reduced DCV, or you Abort and lose your phase, and maybe he gets lucky and still hits.

 

Given you know the haymaker will end the fight if it lands, presumably he knows that as well and avoids letting it land.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Given you know the haymaker will end the fight if it lands, presumably he knows that as well and avoids letting it land. 

 

 

Sure, but if you start it after he moves, he's out of options unless he wants to begin aborting to dodge every phase and never hitting you.  This is where combat gets tactical instead of just standing and trading blows.  Your chances of hitting are pretty good, and the penalties of missing not particularly significant, since on average you'll tend to recover most if not all of the damage he'll do to you with an ordinary blow.

[Hugh Neilson]

If he's already moved, why didn't he Delay in the hope you would move and he could Haymaker? You could both stand there delaying forever.

 

If he lets the Haymaker finish, you have a 62.5% chance of winning with that Haymaker. If you miss, he now hits on a 16-. He can attempt a haymaker (will you abort to avoid it?), or attempt a Trip or a Throw (so you have to get back up, and move back into HTH range - or you can just lie there at half DCV while he Haymakers a kick.

 

If you hit, he could choose to Roll with the Punch (-2 OCV to block - he needs a 9-, which is a 37.5% chance. The odds of your Haymaker landing and him failing to Roll and halve the damage is a bit under 40%, so no guarantee of a game-winner.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Um, sure Hugh.  There's no guarantee.  I wish someone would have claimed that so you can win, or something.

[Hugh Neilson]

The suggestion was "haymaker is the best strategy". I'm looking to assess whether that is really the case. I think it's a pretty good strategy, but not the only strategy. It seems like it could quickly become a series of one fighter starting a haymaker and the other aborting to get out of the way, wash, rinse, repeat.

 

I think the only clear truism to come out of the thread is that the game isn't designed around pure normals, but around the (expected to be) more cinematic player characters who have more options.

[massey]

I don't think pure normals really know the combat system very well.