Staking Multipowers

[Alcibiades]

Hello all, apologies for bombarding you with rule questions, but this game system is very intricate!

 

I have a question. Is the following legal? The idea is a character with two forms and a suite of powers that can be used in either form, but is more powerful in only one of them. The build is, very roughly, thus:

 

Shapeshift to second form

 

Multipower 1

1) Blast xd6

2) Flight x meters

3) Teleportation x meters

 

Multipower 2, all slots Linked to Shapeshift

1) Blast + xd6

2) Flight + x meters

3) Teleportation + x meters

 

So that the slots in the second multipower add to those in the first when the Shapeshift is active.

 

You're not supposed to link slots in different frameworks together (I think?), but this isn't actually doing that -- and the Daemonologist in Chapmpions Villain Teams has something similar, albeit with a VPP instead of a Multipower.

 

I am confounded and baffled!

 

Does this work?

[Tom Cowan]

try a multipower that is the same size as the two pools that you are trying to build and limit the 2nd set of slots to only when shapeshife is active.  thou you can't save on the cost of the multipower this way, just the cost of the slots

 

I would go with a multiform...  And for +5 points x2 the number of forms too.

[DasBroot]

More powerful in one form does indeed scream 'multiform' but there's another option for people who love screaming power ups:

 

Aid (or Boost).

 

A three characteristic Aid the same point value as the second multipower won't be quite as powerful, true (three characteristic aids are pricey), but it will be pretty close, keeps the character to one sheet (which is nice), and is much cleaner to use.

 

One of my players made a super saiyen homage doing just this - it was a truly massive Aid to most physical characteristics with Extra Time and Self Only on it, with a minor cosmetic transform linked to it for good measure.

 

I'm fond of AId in general for this kind of thing: It's just easier and cleaner to take Aid: Energy blast (extra time, incantations) and boost a basic energy blast you already have than to try and partially advantage/disadvantage said blast into looking like what you want.

 

Obviously, though, this depends very, very heavily on the game being played - if you play in a game with a hard DC cap of 12, for example, then taking aid is basically useless (and so is taking two 30 point pools) - you're best of just running at full power all the time and Pushing when you want to be dramatic (if the GM will let you Push past the DC cap).

[Alcibiades]

I'm not going with Multiform because it makes the character more expensive, and the two forms are roughly the same, just one has better capabilities (a bunch of stuff Linked to Shape Shift).

 

Maybe a Boost to all powers in the Multipower at the same time, 0 END Cost, Linked to Shape Shift? That sounds crazy expensive.

 

The single Multipower with partially limited powers inside it occurred to me, but as mentioned it barely saves any points.

 

So, as to the original question -- is the build I have listed in the original post rules-legal?

[massey]

I've always allowed a "partially limited multipower".  Two frameworks can't add to each other, but you can have one framework that has a limit on only a portion of its power.

 

So it would look something like this:

 

Mutipower

40 point pool + 20 points linked to shapeshift (-1/2) -- 53 points

slot #1 -- 5 pts

slot #2 -- 5 pts

slot #3 -- 5 pts

 

 

So yeah, I think you can do it.  HeroDesigner won't let you, but I think the rules allow it.

[Alcibiades]

Yeah, I'm trying to do this via Hero Designer.

 

But....

 

isn't

 

"Mutipower

40 point pool + 20 points linked to shapeshift (-1/2) -- 53 points

slot #1 -- 5 pts

slot #2 -- 5 pts

slot #3 -- 5 pts"

 

Functionally identical to

 

40 point pool

slot #1

 

 

+20 point pool Linked to Shape Shift

slot #1 adds to slot #1 in first pool

 

?

 

EDIT: and in this case, would Linked just go on the MP, or on each slot as well?

[DasBroot]

I'm curious as to how often you'd really be using the powers NOT at their full strength - what's the tactical advantage? 

 

If the answer is 'hardly ever' and it's mostly a character concept thing then multiform probably is the best bet, as you can build a weaker alternate form pretty cheaply (The Hulk is expensive. Bruce Banner is dirt cheap.)

[Alcibiades]

I'm curious as to how often you'd really be using the powers NOT at their full strength - what's the tactical advantage? 

 

If the answer is 'hardly ever' and it's mostly a character concept thing then multiform probably is the best bet, as you can build a weaker alternate form pretty cheaply (The Hulk is expensive. Bruce Banner is dirt cheap.)

 

Well, there are a couple reasons. First off, the Shape Shift can be Suppressed/Dispelled. Second, it can't be used in a specific situation. Third, it's to a monstrous-looking form that would freak people out.

 

And fourth, concept.

 

But it seems that this _is_ legal? So the question is moot.

 

Now the question is whether just the MP takes the Linked Limitation, or every power does!

[massey]

Yeah, I'm trying to do this via Hero Designer.

 

But....

 

isn't

 

"Mutipower

40 point pool + 20 points linked to shapeshift (-1/2) -- 53 points

slot #1 -- 5 pts

slot #2 -- 5 pts

slot #3 -- 5 pts"

 

Functionally identical to

 

40 point pool

slot #1

 

 

+20 point pool Linked to Shape Shift

slot #1 adds to slot #1 in first pool

 

?

 

EDIT: and in this case, would Linked just go on the MP, or on each slot as well?

The difference is you call it a "partially limited multipower", which is (I believe) legal, as opposed to "two different multipowers", which wouldn't be able to stack.

 

In HeroDesigner, you'd just have to build them as two separate multipowers and just declare that they are one big one.

 

The restriction against two MPs would still be in effect, you're just not really going to see it come up unless you've got different limitations on each one.

 

For instance, if you had a MP that was "magic wand", and everything was OAF, you wouldn't be able to stack on your "magic spells" MP where everything was gestures, incantations, and requires a skill roll. That's the sort of situation where it's hard to imagine linking the two together.

[DasBroot]

There exists another way (that I personally frown upon as  GM but is perfectly legal) that sort of combines everything that's being said:

 

The second multipower has a bunch of Aid powers in it instead of copies of the first pool's power (instead of my first suggestion of a 3 characteristic expensive out of pool Aid).

 

Aid, unless bought as Boost, has a duration of Instant and therefore its effects do not end when you switch slots.  So if you spend a few segments 'powering up' to your monster form you end up with much the same effect as stacking two multi-power pools - just... slower. But legal.

 

I frown upon it because if you take the advantages that affect the rate of decay you can take a few seconds before kicking a door in to 'power up' and it can last for far longer than the fight.  It's basically a lot of really, really cheap attribute points. Unless you're ambushed every single time you're expecting trouble (which definitely should happen from time to time if your GM allowed you to do this in the first place ... but not every time.)

 

Aid is nuts once you tinker with any of its parameters. 

[Netzilla]

As with some of the others, I'd do this as a Multipower, myself.

 

However, if you're dead set on not going that route, I believe the technically correct to do this would be:

 

Shapeshift

 

Multipower (60 point pool)

slot1: Partially Limited Power -- 40 points base + 20 points (linked to Shapeshift)

slot2: Partially Limited Power -- 40 points base + 20 points (linked to Shapeshift)

slot3: Partially Limited Power -- 40 points base + 20 points (linked to Shapeshift)

 

I've done a similar build for a 'reverse duplicator' whose powers were stronger when joined.

 

I don't believe you're allowed to partially limit the pool itself by the RAW.

[dsatow]

AFAIK

1. You can limit/link the pool of the multipower so long as the pool is not linked to another slot or pool in another or the same framework.  So the example of linking the second MP to shapeshift is legal.
2. You can not partially limit a pool of the multipower, though your GM is GodMan and can do whatever the hell they want.  The rules however, do not allow partially limited multipower pools.  They have to apply to the whole pool.
3. Limitations applied to the pool can either apply to the pool only or to all slots as well as the pool.
4. Powers from one slot in a multipower do not "add" to another slot in another multipower.

Example on item 4.  If you have a 10d6 EB in one multipower and an 8d6 EB in another multipower.  You do not have an 18d6 EB.  You have an 10d6 EB and an 8d6 EB.  The difference being is that each is a separate attack power.  Your original post seems to indicate you want the two to add together.  In some powers, this doesn't matter (EX: characteristics, defenses, etc) or matters slightly (EX: movement with different non-combat multiples) but on most attacks and adjustment powers it does.  Again, if your GM doesn't mind, so be it.

[Amorkca]

What if you buy extra characteristics or powers with the Unified limitation and/or with the equivalent of Only in Hero ID?

[dsatow]

What if you buy extra characteristics or powers with the Unified limitation and/or with the equivalent of Only in Hero ID?

You can apply either limitation on the pool or pool and slots.  Though I wouldn't understand why you would only apply OHID to just the pool, as the slots would be affected too since the slots could not use the pool.  You could apply Unified Powers to just the pool which if affected by a drain would drain the pool down to the point where only slots which would fit the pool would function.  I'd like to note, most people would put the Unified limitation on both the pool and slots.

[Alcibiades]

Thanks everyone, I wound up going with

 

Shapeshift

 

40-point Multipower

Slot 1: 4d6 Telepathy + 4d6 Telepathy (Linked: Shape Shift)

Slot 2: 4d6 Mental Illusions + 4d6 Mental Illusions (Linked: Shape Shift)

etc.

 

That seems easiest.

 

EDIT: as a matter of fact, the linking to Shape Shift is my way of otherwise doing OIAID, because I don't like that limitation for werewolves and so on.

[Lucius]

One way:

Accidental Change: Using Certain Powers at more than half power. Always (Common)
Complication points: 25

Another way:

Useful Power I: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 24 Real Cost) Some Kind of Useful Power, Assorted Appropriate Advantages (+1/2) (60 Active Points); List of Likely Limitations (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; If using at more than half power, involuntary PRE attack at +4d6 all bystanders and allies; -1/2) (Real Cost: 24)

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks "Staking Multipower" sounds like something a vampire hunter would have

 

[Alcibiades]

That's very clever Lucius. The build idea, not the cruel jab at my innocent typo.

[Tom Cowan]

Multiform (500 Character Points in the most expensive form) (x2 Number Of Forms) (105 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2) may cost 70 points out of the points of a 400 hero but only the true form pays the points so if you never use the true form but use the other two forms for play cost is not a problem... now when the GM wakes up and sees that you have a 500 point hero in a 400 point game...  

[Alcibiades]

Anyway, I wound up going with

 

9 Incarnation of the Fury:  Shape Shift  (Sight, Hearing and Touch Groups), Instant Change, Costs END Only To Change Shape (+1/4), Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points; +1/4) (34 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Affects Body Only (-1/2), IAF (Torch Amulet; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

 

16 Goddess of Punishment:  Multipower, 40-point reserve,  (40 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 1/2 worth of Limitations; -3/4), IAF (Torch Amulet; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

 

1f 1) Assume the Guise of Mortals/Relive the Crime:  (Total: 40 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Mental Illusions 4d6 (20 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -2 worth of Limitations; Concentration, Extra Time, Increased Endurance Cost, or Requires a Roll, as well as No Conscious Control (only to make target relive his greatest source of guilt) or Self Only; -1), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), IAF (Torch Amulet; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6) plus Mental Illusions + 4d6 (20 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 1/2 worth of Limitations; Concentration, Extra Time, Increased Endurance Cost, or Requires a Roll; -3/4), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), IAF (Torch Amulet; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Linked (Incarnation of the Fury; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

 

and so on

[Lucius]

That's very clever Lucius. The build idea, not the cruel jab at my innocent typo.

You can jab at me when I make a misspelling.

 

You wouldn't be the first.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sometimes the first to make fun of me for a mistake is a palindromedary