How to changing the size shape of an AoE (in a MP ... between uses)

[Surrealone]

A little help, please?

 

Goal:
​Build a power with the AoE Advantage ... for use in a MP (not a VPP) ... whose shape/size can be changed between uses.  i.e. Changing from a +3/4 16m Selective Cone .... to a +3/4 8m Selective Radius ... to a +3/4 32m Selective Line.  As in the foregoing examples, the +3/4 would remain the same ... and as the shape changed from Cone, to Radius, to Line, to Any, to Surface, et. al. between uses (as a 0 Phase Action before next use of the power) ... the size would be whatever size was required to maintain parity/proportionality with the shape .. at the initially-defined Advantage cost level (i.e. +3/4 in this case).

 

My Initial Hope:

Just as AoE has Selective/Non-Selective options, I have been looking around for some additional options for AoE that would allow for the above. So far I've come up empty-handed, but I don't own all 6e materials and I'm hoping someone else who has tinkered with this kind of thing might have an AoE-specific option.

 

My Concern:

Variable Advantage is all I'm seeing to do this with, so far.  It can absolutely do this ... but it does a lot more than I would like .... and, thus, costs a lot more than I would like.  For a +1.5 cost, I can do a +3/4 Variable Advantage that will absolutely let me do the above ... and piles more.  I can further reduce that cost to +1.25 ... and do a +3/4 Variable Advantage with a limited group of Advantages (up to 4).  APG2 page 48 clarifies that unless a GM rules otherwise, each time Variable Advantage is used (even if it's something like Indirect ... or AoE), someone can wholly define that Advantage.  Thus, using the Limited Group, AoE would be but 1 advantage among the 4.  I don't need to do more, but there's no cost break for doing fewer than 4... and in a game where you supposedly get what you pay for, if I've got no option other than to pay for a group of 4 ... you can rest assured I'm going to get my points' worth by defining a group of 4 (only one of which is AoE) while still staying within concept.  (Sure, I could elect not to use the Variable Advantage for 4 Advantages ... but that's throwing points away...)

 

 

So, does something exist that allows for what I'm trying to do ... without paying more than I need to by using Variable Advantage?  If so could someone point me to it?

 

If not, does a +1/4 more cost for the normally +3/4 Selective AoE (for a total of +1) ...make sense to allow me to change its shape between uses as a 0 Phase action (much like variable Advantage ... but only for AoE shape)  ... with size being fixed to a given shape (as the above examples) in a way that the total Advantage cost always maintains parity (i.e. +1) regardless of the chosen shape?  The thinking on this price is that it's more than the base AoE cost ... but not as expensive as the +1/2 more which would be paid to take a +3/4 Advantage and make it a Variable Advantage with A Limited Group (such that up to 4 Advantages could be mixed/matched however I liked).  I don't need/want that kind of  flexibility ... and, obviously, don't want to pay the extra +1/4 for something I don't need/want.

 

Does anything like this already exist?  Or does the rationale and costing, above, above, seem fair?

[DasBroot]

I tried something similar with variable advantage on a blast.  It was, as you noted, painful. I then played around with naked advantages for blast with similar results.

 

I ultimately found it more effective (and cheaper, in the case of the naked advantage attempt) to pay for the slots for the most common configurations I wanted to use.

 

I think it's a great suggestion for a 7E, though.

[dsatow]

I am thinking you need to step back from the design for a second.  I can see where you'd think there is nothing you might want other than AoE but there are several advantages which can compliment AoE.

 

Reduced end is always a good one.

Contant - for those cases where you want to continuously exude a cone or stream of fire (or whatever)

Double Knockback - for explosive effects

Megascale - for really enormous effects

No Range Modifier - for long shots like missles

Damage over Time - like catching a target on fire

Difficult to dispel - another standard though seldom used

Hole in the middle - when you don't want something hit (like you and your friends)

Personal immunity - When its just you you don't want to hit

Increased maximum range - great when paired with no range modifier but that might mean not having the AoE unless you buy up the variable advantage

Triggered - bombs anyone

[Surrealone]

dsatow,

Oh, I know the value of such things ... but for this specific application, I simply don't need/want any of them in a variable fashion.  (Put another way ... the power would already be built with the other Advantages I want ... in more permanent fashion ... hence no need for variability to include those things.)  I'm also trying to keep things uncomplicated, as there's enough other stuff going on with this character in terms of bookwork that I'm near saturation when playing it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a version of "Variable Effect" would work for this; a +1/2 to be able to change the AE around to any kind, or +1/4 to change the size of an area effect at will.  A power pool or multipower would do it too, of course.

[Surrealone]

I think a version of "Variable Effect" would work for this; a +1/2 to be able to change the AE around to any kind, or +1/4 to change the size of an area effect at will.  A power pool or multipower would do it too, of course.

For +1/2 ... on a +3/4 AoE ... totaling +1.25 ... one might as well do the Variable Advantage for a Limited Group of Advantages (up to 4) ... for the same +1.25 cost ... and be able to change yet again more than just AOE-related things. 

 

i.e. Comparatively speaking, your proposal is very expensive ... when put next to an option that's already doing more (changeable AoE, plus 3 other advantages) as well as more than what I seek/need.

[dsatow]

Well, there is another way,  buy Area of Effect hexes any area.  Then shape the hexes anyway you want, including doubling up (which has no effect game wise).  Though your area may be a little small.

[Surrealone]

AoE: Any Area has always been a bum deal.  Talk about NOT getting what you pay for ... in a game where you're supposed to get what you pay for.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah AE" Any is a gargantuan ripoff, its like 1/80th the area of the other abilities for the same price.  Far, far too much penalty for limited flexibility.  I'd rather buy radius with "accurate selective" from APGII and hit only where I want for a fraction the price for the area.

[Deadman]

Here are a couple of house rules that I came up with that could help.  I think they really make the AoE Advantage very customizable as a whole.

 

Area of Effect – Any Area – This seems to be very under powered when compared with the other versions.  For this reason I would recommend that the areas be 1m areas and the number quadrupled (8 – 1m areas for +1/4, 16 for +1/2, 32 for +3/4, 64 for +1, etc.).  it is worth noting that since they are only 1m high they will need to be stacked to reach the 2m standard.  This helps when mapping is done by Meter and measuring 2m areas is difficult.  Technically it isn't actually more powerful than using 2m areas since a single 2m area would consist of 7 1m areas if my assumption is accurate.  However it does give a lot of flexibility.

 

Pattern Shift – (+1/4 Advantage) – Allows the character to change the pattern of an AoE between uses.  It does not alter the scale so if a character had an 8m Radius as the base it could become a 16m Cone or 32m Line in future uses.  This cannot be used during a constant AoE’s existence.

 

Configurable – (+1/4 Advantage) – Allows the character to alter the area of an AoE attack between uses.  It does not alter the pattern unless that advantage is also purchased.  With this advantage the character could make his 8m Radius AoE Blast only extend to a 4m Radius, 5m Radius or other area.  The character can only lower the Area not increase it beyond its purchased maximum.  If purchased on a Constant AoE power the character can change the Area as an attack action.  When changing the Area the Character may not selectively shrink then grow the area to “crawl” the AoE around this would require Mobile.

 

I do so enjoy monkeying with the rules.

 

Deadman

[Christopher R Taylor]

I ran the numbers down a while back and even with the cheapest AE, Any area ends up being like 1/16th as efficient, and there's no way on earth any sane person can argue that being highly configurable equals sixteen times the cost.  Even just doubling the area given would be a reasonable step.

[Hugh Neilson]

To "variable advantage", I note you have described 5 different AoE's in your initial post. In the 6e Firelord example, one of his four examples is "Explosion", which is not the full suite of AoE advantages. A second example notes that, if the "four possible settings" option is selected, Autofire (3 shots, +1/4) and +1 Stun Multiplier (+1/4) would be one of the four, but the combination of +1/4 advantages cannot be varied.

 

Given the much reduced flexibility of the more limited Variable Advantage, I would be inclined to let you pay the reduced advantage for "any AoE areas within the Advantage limit", so you could have more than four areas, but I would be cutting you a break in that regard.

 

Alternatively, buy Variable Advantage, and limit the Variable Advantage to "AoE advantages only". A choice of only four advantages halves the cost or variable advantages, so a limitation of -3/4 or -1/2 on the Variable Advantage only seems reasonable for a VA that can handle more than four choices, but is not as versatile as allowing any combination of advantages to be selected.

[Surrealone]

Here are a couple of house rules that I came up with that could help.  I think they really make the AoE Advantage very customizable as a whole.

 

Area of Effect – Any Area – This seems to be very under powered when compared with the other versions.  For this reason I would recommend that the areas be 1m areas and the number quadrupled (8 – 1m areas for +1/4, 16 for +1/2, 32 for +3/4, 64 for +1, etc.).  it is worth noting that since they are only 1m high they will need to be stacked to reach the 2m standard.  This helps when mapping is done by Meter and measuring 2m areas is difficult.  Technically it isn't actually more powerful than using 2m areas since a single 2m area would consist of 7 1m areas if my assumption is accurate.  However it does give a lot of flexibility.

 

Pattern Shift – (+1/4 Advantage) – Allows the character to change the pattern of an AoE between uses.  It does not alter the scale so if a character had an 8m Radius as the base it could become a 16m Cone or 32m Line in future uses.  This cannot be used during a constant AoE’s existence.

 

Configurable – (+1/4 Advantage) – Allows the character to alter the area of an AoE attack between uses.  It does not alter the pattern unless that advantage is also purchased.  With this advantage the character could make his 8m Radius AoE Blast only extend to a 4m Radius, 5m Radius or other area.  The character can only lower the Area not increase it beyond its purchased maximum.  If purchased on a Constant AoE power the character can change the Area as an attack action.  When changing the Area the Character may not selectively shrink then grow the area to “crawl” the AoE around this would require Mobile.

 

I do so enjoy monkeying with the rules.

 

Deadman

I read these as optional items to be tacked on to AoE ... much Selective/Nonselective.  If I'm reading that correctly, then I really like the options you've presented.

 

Pattern Shift (i.e. Cone to Radius to Line, etc)appears to be what I had proposed in the initial post from a cost and functionality perspective.  I like the clarification that it can't be used during a constant AoE's existence, but I think that probably need to be clarified to read something like "This cannot be used to vary the shape of an existing constant AoE, but may be used to vary a constant AoE's shape between uses."

 

​Configurable is a nice touch, too -- as it then allows for reductive size variance ... separate from (and potentially without) pattern variance, should one desire it.

 

The intended uses of Any Area aren't 100% clear to me, so I can't really comment..  Can you give some examples of the quadrupling?  (i.e. Are you suggesting separate areas that don't have to be contiguous?)