Mental killing attacks

[GCMorris]

4e. In 4e there is a power advantage Based on ECV. I had a medalist way back then who used a mental killing attack based on ecv. He was pretty wicked. I'm wondering if this power advantage exists in the later editions?

[Christopher R Taylor]

6th edition will let you do so, with AVAD and ACV. 

 

Attack vs Alternate Defense lets you pick the defense your attack goes against, with an advantage based on the shift of how much more uncommon and specialized the defense is.  

Attack vs Alternate Combat Value lets you pick what CV you go against: DCV or defensive Mental CV (DMCV).  you can pick what you use to roll with too, MCV or OCV.

[Deadman]

Using AVAD would be the first step.  You would go from a Common DEF (Resistant PD or ED) to a Rare DEF (Resistant Mental Defense +1 Advantage) and also have to put Does Body (another +1 Advantage).  So the cost would be pretty steep but it would be a very deadly attack.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I built an assassin that worked for my big campaign bad guy The Overlord who was a stealth/desolid type with a killing attack vs mental defense in 4th edition.  She was horrendous, who buys resistant mental defense??  Plus, the Overlord was a power copier, so he could take that on himself if she was nearby...

[zslane]

We call this the Darryl Revok Special.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The Overlord was built with the ability to be able to wipe the floor with a superhero group, but the personality to want everything to be a challenge, to show he was better than everyone else in everything.  So he wouldn't just walk in and trash them, he'd set up games, events, use his powers to match theirs then try to show he was better, etc.

[bigdamnhero]

Alternately you can buy Mental Blast with Does BODY (+1). Expensive, but not overpriced for how nasty it is.

[dsatow]

In 5th, I asked about Based on ECV does Body KA to Steve Long who replied to me that there is no such thing as resistant mental defense.  But in 6th, it is possible by adding the resistant advantage to mental defense.  I don't know if he relented or didn't see this combination, but the more the merrier.

[NuSoardGraphite]

In 5th, I asked about Based on ECV does Body KA to Steve Long who replied to me that there is no such thing as resistant mental defense. But in 6th, it is possible by adding the resistant advantage to mental defense. I don't know if he relented or didn't see this combination, but the more the merrier.

I used to just add Damage Resistance to Mental Defense. The mechanics and power contructs work exactly the same. There was absolutely no reason to tell you there was no such thing as resistant Mental Defense. Thats just silly.

[LouisGoncey]

We call this the Darryl Revok Special.

 

SCANNERS for the win!

[Lord Liaden]

An official Champions villain, Galaxia (Champions Villains Vol. 3) has an attack like that: RKA 3d6 AVAD (Mental Defense; +1), Does BODY (+1). She also has additional Resistant Protection (25 PD/25 ED/15 Mental Defense/15 Power Defense).

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually, one could rule that there is no such thing as resistant exotic defenses on the basis that they are automatically resistant. In this case, a KA vs Smell Flash Defense is defended by any Smell Flash Defense, and a Mental KA is defended by all Mental Defense. Also, NND's cannot require Resistant Smell Flash Defense since this is the same as Smell Flash Defense, and we get a bit less "I want an NND defense that no one who has not read my character sheet would ever purchase, and I will pretend it is still reasonably common".

 

I think there were some official characters back in the day who had Force Fields with exotic defenses, which implied they could be resistant.

[massey]

Actually, one could rule that there is no such thing as resistant exotic defenses on the basis that they are automatically resistant. In this case, a KA vs Smell Flash Defense is defended by any Smell Flash Defense, and a Mental KA is defended by all Mental Defense. Also, NND's cannot require Resistant Smell Flash Defense since this is the same as Smell Flash Defense, and we get a bit less "I want an NND defense that no one who has not read my character sheet would ever purchase, and I will pretend it is still reasonably common".

 

I think there were some official characters back in the day who had Force Fields with exotic defenses, which implied they could be resistant.

That's how we do it. No such thing as resistant flash defense. That's like having an NND where the defense is "never having been in my kitchen".

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah for some attacks, there's no such thing as resistance.  How would a killing attack flash work anyway?  Do body damage while blinding you?  Its absurd; killing is damage, not flash.  That's like having a killing attack entangle.  It makes no sense.

[bigdamnhero]

In 5th, I asked about Based on ECV does Body KA to Steve Long who replied to me that there is no such thing as resistant mental defense.  But in 6th, it is possible by adding the resistant advantage to mental defense.  I don't know if he relented or didn't see this combination, but the more the merrier.

Hmm. Yeah, 5ER p157 says "Ego Attacks that do BODY are not Killing Damage, so Mental Defense does not have to be Resistant to stop the BODY damage." And then on p200 it says "Mental Defense is not Resistant, but characters may purchase Damage Resistance for it." So that's consistent.

 

Meanwhile the text for Mental Blast in 6e1 p247 also says "Mental Blasts that do BODY are not Killing Damage, so Mental Defense does not have to be Resistant to stop the BODY damage." But then on the same page under Mental Defense, it say "Mental Defense is not Resistant, but characters may purchase Resistant (+1/2) for it." Which begs the question why would you want to? The only thing I can think of would be to defend against Mental Blasts bought as AVAD: rMD?

 

Flash doesn't do damage period, so even less need to buy Resistant Flash Def, again unless someone is buying AVAD for their Flash.

 

Honestly the only time I've seen rMD was because someone was adding MD to a force field in Hero Designer and it was easier to make it part of the same entry rather than a separate Linked power.

[Lord Liaden]

Meanwhile the text for Mental Blast in 6e1 p247 also says "Mental Blasts that do BODY are not Killing Damage, so Mental Defense does not have to be Resistant to stop the BODY damage." But then on the same page under Mental Defense, it say "Mental Defense is not Resistant, but characters may purchase Resistant (+1/2) for it." Which begs the question why would you want to? The only thing I can think of would be to defend against Mental Blasts bought as AVAD: rMD?

 

 

We've already defined a Power build against which it makes sense to have resistant Mental Defense: Killing Attacks bought AVAD. It's also worth noting that Mental Damage Reduction can also be bought Resistant. Whether such builds would be allowed by a particular GM, and whether they're costed appropriately, are separate issues.

[Tom Cowan]

Some types of settings that are psi heavy cinematic may have something like

 

Mind Blade:  Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (1d6+1 w/STR), Alternate Combat Value (uses OMCV against DCV; +0), Custom Modifier (use EGO for STR; +1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Resistant Mental Defense; +1), Does BODY (+1) (49 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (-1/4)

[Ninja-Bear]

Yeah for some attacks, there's no such thing as resistance. How would a killing attack flash work anyway? Do body damage while blinding you? Its absurd; killing is damage, not flash. That's like having a killing attack entangle. It makes no sense.

Yet depending on special effect, you can link them say a Nova burst so does it really matter?

 

Would killing entangle be an easier build for something like a constrictor?

[dsatow]

That's how we do it. No such thing as resistant flash defense. That's like having an NND where the defense is "never having been in my kitchen".

 

I can just see the character play on that NND power

HERO: "Take this!"

VILLAIN: "Laughable!  And clean up the dishes in the sink.  You're a hero not a pig."

[Durzan Malakim]

[W]ho buys resistant mental defense??

 

I bought resistant mental defense after running into a Big Bad Mentalist with that flavor of AVAD. I didn't realize how rare it was in other games. I probably wasted some points on a rare Bogey Man, but I also might be the only one left standing should he show up again.

[Hugh Neilson]

Why not "Resistant Smell Flash Defense"?  Hey, why not "Resistant Hardened Impenetrable Smell Flash Defense"?  Let's make it even less likely - it has to be "Resistant Hardened Impenetrable Smell Flash Defense with Ablative at the -1 Level".

 

6e has clearly decided exotic defenses can be resistant or non-resistant.  The AVAD table reflects that.  But why should anyone ever buy an attack that is defended by non-resistant Smell Flash Defense?  Both non-sight and hearling Flash Defense and Resistant Flash Defense are "Rare", so the cost is the same whether it's Resistant or not.

 

At some point, the arms race gets ridiculous.  Just allow a high enough AVAD to have no defenses.  Put that one step beyond Rare.  If you want to pay a +2 advantage to make your Blast have no defenses, +1 to allow it to do BOD, you get a 3d6 Blast for 60 AP.  It will average 10.5 STUN and 3 BOD past defenses.

 

In a typical 60 AP game, will that be more effective than a 12d6 Blast?    A 25 defense target will take 17 STUN and 0 BOD - unless you kill him (requiring 7 hits if he has 10 BOD, less if he gets to bleed a few times), the Blast will run him out of STUN much faster.

[Durzan Malakim]

My Champions group has run into two different villains with exotic AVAD powers. Since they both appeared at the same time, I'm pretty sure they were a "clue by four" meant to convey, "You are not ready for this fight. Time to run away now." After getting our noses quite bloodied we eventually implemented plan "Brave Sir Robin" and got out of there.

 

I can see why a GM might use exotic AVAD powers to herd players down the plot railroad tracks. I haven't seen much or any player use of exotic AVAD powers, but our group doesn't contain any ultra-competitive sorts who feel compelled to win every fight. As the math shows, AVAD powers are not the "I win" button most people might think they are.

[Lord Liaden]

I consider the rules for this a reasonable part of Hero System's "toolkit" approach. The option to make exotic Defenses Resistant exists if someone wants to use it. Whether or not any one of us can come up right now with a rationale for a particular construct isn't the issue. No one can anticipate every concept or SFX that a player or GM might imagine and want to use. Hero claims to be able to model anything, so I'd rather have the tool in my box and not need it, than discover I need it and not have it.

[Ninja-Bear]

The longer I'm on these boards the more I see that someone has an idea in which the best way to represent it is to mofify the existing rules.

[Lucius]

I consider the rules for this a reasonable part of Hero System's "toolkit" approach. The option to make exotic Defenses Resistant exists if someone wants to use it. Whether or not any one of us can come up right now with a rationale for a particular construct isn't the issue. No one can anticipate every concept or SFX that a player or GM might imagine and want to use. Hero claims to be able to model anything, so I'd rather have the tool in my box and not need it, than discover I need it and not have it.

I'm reminded of the time I read a wonderful article online someone wrote about modifying Civilization II, and the obviously intelligent and certainly very helpful author described how to make it possible for a unit to turn land into water, "Great if you are designing a scenario involving an armada in a landlocked inner sea and need to build a canal to get them into open ocean." He then said you can also turn water into land, "But I can't imagine how you would use that."

 

That kind of stunned me. How can someone imagine a canal, but not a bridge?

 

Lord Liaden has a point. Just because we can't see the use of something doesn't mean it doesn't have a legitimate use for someone.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

some people don't see the use of a palindromedary but if I didn't have one I'd have to invent it.