Swimming In Armor Or Otherwise Encumbered

[bigdamnhero]

I’m specifically thinking about this in fantasy terms. But the general principle holds for other heroic genres, which is why I’m posting it here.

 

According to the Encumbrance rules, a 10 STR character can swim carrying 24 kg (53 lbs) without penalty, and even at 49 kg (108 lbs) they have no problem staying afloat, just are slowed -2m. Heck, even a 5 STR character with only 2m of Swimming can still carry 12kg (26 lbs) in the water with no problem. I’m not much of a swimmer, but…does that seem right?

 

Looking specifically at armor, a 10 STR character wearing full chainmail (20 kg) can swim without penalty, and even in full plate (40 kg) has no trouble staying afloat? Yes, I realize I’m ignoring any other weight they might be carrying, but still. Swimming in armor seems like it ought to be harder than that, both logically and in terms of the way it’s usually portrayed. Narratively, I don't have a problem with heroic characters managing to Not Drown if they fall overboard in armor; I don't see it being an automatic death sentence. But it ought to be some degree of challenging.

 

I’ve seen a few videos of people in armor managing to stay afloat or even swim short distances, but it sure didn’t look effortless.

 

Thoughts?

[Tom Cowan]

the rules do have problem.  A lot of that has to do with density and not mass for stuff in water.  but do you want to spend the time to find the density of all your gear?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Probably worth doubling the encumbrance penalties for in the water, thanks for bringing this to my attention for my Field Guide

[dsatow]

This is probably best left to the GM as Tom Cowan states it has to do with the density rather than mass and probably also resistance.  For example, 12 KG might sink you in Lake Tahoe but not in the Dead Sea.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would do it the opposite: rule that you are dragged down, and then note any differences for different densities of liquid in the text.

[dsatow]

Note that resistance too plays a part on whether you float or sink.  It's why a large number of boats float and then sink when they fill with water.  Especially metal (ex:military wessels) or concrete (old WWII vessels).

 

Theoretically, Bouncing Boy from the Legion of Superheroes should never sink in bouncing form.

[Ninja-Bear]

I see real armor penalty coming in to use.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think BDH that thisbisba minor flaw with hero system. Hero system in Heroic still treats movement as a power not a skill hence no roll. Perhaps water should be written as change enviroment?

[bigdamnhero]

Granted that equipment density, water density, resistance, etc all matter. But it still seems like we ought to be able to come up with some general rule of thumb, and then the GM can throw modifiers on the roll based on other variables.

 

I think BDH that thisbisba minor flaw with hero system. Hero system in Heroic still treats movement as a power not a skill hence no roll. Perhaps water should be written as change enviroment?

In general I'm not a big fan of "roll to see how far you can move this turn" mechanics; too random for my taste. But I think you're on the right track here. I'm thinking some sort of Char or Skill Roll, with penalties based on Encumbrance level: roll X and you get your regular Swimming speed, roll Y you're at 1/2 move, roll Z and you're sinking? I'm not sure STR makes perfect sense, but it's probably the closest without making up a new Characteristic or Skill.

 

But hey, I swim like a rock so I may not be the best judge...

[dsatow]

Granted that equipment density, water density, resistance, etc all matter. But it still seems like we ought to be able to come up with some general rule of thumb, and then the GM can throw modifiers on the roll based on other variables.

 

In general I'm not a big fan of "roll to see how far you can move this turn" mechanics; too random for my taste. But I think you're on the right track here. I'm thinking some sort of Char or Skill Roll, with penalties based on Encumbrance level: roll X and you get your regular Swimming speed, roll Y you're at 1/2 move, roll Z and you're sinking? I'm not sure STR makes perfect sense, but it's probably the closest without making up a new Characteristic or Skill.

 

But hey, I swim like a rock so I may not be the best judge...

Personally I always thought Running or Sprinting should be a skill for athletes.  Something like make your Sprinting skill roll and increase your running by 1m + 1m per 1 you made the roll by for 1 end per 1m.  Similarly for long distance running, make a Running skill roll to delay taking 1 LTE by 1 turn + 1 turn per 1 you made the roll by (resets after each time LTE taken).  Otherwise, two similar athletes should always tie in races and the like or the one whose initiative is faster always should win.

[Ninja-Bear]

BDH in SW Weg ed you had a diffuculty based terrain difficulty. If you made it, you got your full move if not you stopped where you made it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Champions started out as a superhero game, so the movement by phase thing made sense from a visual and conceptual standpoint: you went that far each of the comic book "panels" you were in.  Superman keeps moving, but in each panel he's portrayed at a certain point in time, flying or not.

 

If you move away from the superhero setting, the comic book panel thing is less conceptually satisfying, I think. Should my suspensor belt only work on my phases in Star Hero?  Should my running in the Danger International game only work while I'm on the comic book panel?  Or should I move every segment, but act only on my phases?

[bigdamnhero]

Or should I move every segment, but act only on my phases?

We tried that once.

 

Once.

[Durzan Malakim]

What if you doubled the current weight of all gear while in the water to represent the gear absorbing extra water weight? I know not all gear absorbs water but a simple multiplier of some type like x1.5 or x2 is easier to work out than determining what happens for each piece of gear.

[Mister E]

Sharks and Shining Armor | MythBusters Jawsome Shark Special -- Shark Week 2012:

 

 

 

This is what I imagine Swimming in real armor to be like.

 

--

 

Armor is ballast.

 

Realistically armor would not naturally be balanced for proper swimming. Adjustments would have to be made by someone who knows how. Not everyone knows how.

 

The trim/attitude of a swimmer is effected by the difference between the swimmer's center of gravity vs. center of buoyancy.

 

If the armor was all upper body the swimmer would naturally turn upside-down & would have to spend END to not drown even on the the surface of the water.

 

--

 

Swimming is an horizontal activity.

 

For hydrodynamic reasons if the trim is off it is going to take constant extra END just to correct it in order to swim correctly.

 

W/o proper trim Swimming is going to be much slower.

 

--

 

If a character has Swimming as a Power then I would ignore real armor penalties for swimming as if the armor was not real.

[Cantriped]

I've never been fond of the flat penalties applied to movement rates by Encumbrance. Even within NCM Ranges, it is fairly easy to raise your stats to the point where you can still move while heavily encumbered. In my campaigns I use a modified version of the Encumbrance table that applies Percentage based penalties instead of flat penalties.

As an additional house rule, I could see doubling or even tripling your "effective mass carried" for the purpose of determining encumbrance while swimming. But I would also allow Heroic & Superheroic Characters to Push their Swimming and/or Strength in order to survive.

[Ninja-Bear]

Here's a thought. Flight can be added to STR for lifting purposes. What if you use that formula for swimming but it doesn't add to STR? Plus have we looked at optional leaping based on mass? Again substitute swim for leap?

[bigdamnhero]

Here's a thought. Flight can be added to STR for lifting purposes. What if you use that formula for swimming but it doesn't add to STR?

Hmm. 4m of Swimming counts as +1 STR. So how would you apply that against Encumbrance? Per RAW 1 STR would be completely Encumbered by 8kg, so that seems a tad severe. I like the direction you're heading, but I'm not sure I see where it leads.

 

Plus have we looked at optional leaping based on mass? Again substitute swim for leap?

I'm not sure what optional rule you're talking about here? Tell me more...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Effectively, more swimming = ignore encumbrance already, if encumbrance just knocks straight movement off your swim speed.

[bigdamnhero]

I've been mulling this over in the back of my brain for a few days, and decided to run some numbers.

 

If we go with doubling mass of carried items for purposes of calculating Encumbrance while Swimming:

• A 10 STR Normal with 4m Swimming wearing full chainmail (Def 6, 20 kg) would effectively be carrying 40 kg, which is 40% Encumbrance, which translates to -2m. So their movement is halved and they burn 1 additional END.
• The same Normal in full plate (Def 8, 40 kg) would be 80% Encumbered, which is -8m Swimming; if their Swimming is maxed out at 8m, they can probably stay afloat for awhile, but they're not going to cover any distance.
• A 13 STR character with 4m Swimming would be 30% Encumbered in chainmail (-2m, 1 END), and 60% Encumbered in full plate (-4m, 2 END).
• But bump that to 15 STR and you'd only be 20% Encumbered in chainmail (no penalties), and 40% Encumbered in full plate (-2m, 1 END).

That's better than nothing, but still seems low to me.

 

Tripling the mass:

• 10 STR character in chainmail would be 60% Encumbered (-4m, 2 END), and 120% Encumbered in full plate (sink like rock).
• 13 STR character in chainmail would be 40% Encumbered (-2m, 1 END), and 80% Encumbered in full plate (-8m, 3 END).
• 15 STR character in chainmail would be 30% Encumbered (-2m, 1 END), and 60% Encumbered in full plate (-4m, 2 END).
• 18 STR character in chainmail would be 20% Encumbered (no penalty), and 40% Encumbered in full plate (-2m, 1 END).

That's better, but I'm still not crazy about an 18 STR character being able to swim in full chainmail without penalty, even if they're not a particularly strong swimmer.

 

A simpler method would be to say that while swimming you drop 1 row on the Encumbrance chart, which gives results similar to doubling the mass. Dropping 2 rows is similar to tripling the mass, except that you're at -2m even if you're at 0-9% Encumbered.

 

Sigh. I'm really not happy with any of those methods.

[Durzan Malakim]

That's better, but I'm still not crazy about an 18 STR character being able to swim in full chainmail without penalty, even if they're not a particularly strong swimmer.

 

I assume that 18 STR is fairly common in your Fantasy Hero campaign.

 

Sigh. I'm really not happy with any of those methods.

 

Rather than further fine-tune the encumbrance rules you could just say that only people with an appropriate background have any swimming movement. So sailors, pirates, and divers can swim, but your typical man-at-arms cannot. In such a setting, having an 18 STR no longer gives you a "get out of drowning free" card.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I guess it depends on the kind of game you want as a GM.  For me, having characters fall into the water and just die because they are wearing armor isn't very heroic or fun.  Having them be slow because of it, that's fine.

 

You could just rule that anyone wearing over x amount of heavy materials (like armor) sinks to the bottom regardless of their swim speed, and just moves along the bottom more quickly if they have a lot of strength.

[bigdamnhero]

I assume that 18 STR is fairly common in your Fantasy Hero campaign.

Not common, but certainly not unheard of: 1 out of 5 PCs in my current game, plus the occasional NPC.

 

Rather than further fine-tune the encumbrance rules you could just say that only people with an appropriate background have any swimming movement. So sailors, pirates, and divers can swim, but your typical man-at-arms cannot. In such a setting, having an 18 STR no longer gives you a "get out of drowning free" card.

Maybe. But then that's a death sentence for anyone without that background? That seems severe.

 

For me, having characters fall into the water and just die because they are wearing armor isn't very heroic or fun.  Having them be slow because of it, that's fine.

Yeah, I'm not looking to kill everyone who falls in the water, I'm aiming for slow and challenging, maybe involving a CON Roll or something. My players all tend to keep their Encumbrance levels below 25%, most even below 10%. So I'm less worried about the high end than I am the low end.

[Ninja-Bear]

BDH the optional leaping I'm thinking about is tge one example of small puppy and Lead Boy. Puppy has -25 STR but low Mass so he can jump far. More importantly Lead Boy has STR thru DI I think total of 50 but his Mass is so much he cam only jump 2m

[Durzan Malakim]

Yeah, I'm not looking to kill everyone who falls in the water, I'm aiming for slow and challenging, maybe involving a CON Roll or something. My players all tend to keep their Encumbrance levels below 25%, most even below 10%. So I'm less worried about the high end than I am the low end.

 

I know most Fantasy Hero campaigns don't bother with END tracking, but if you do or are willing to track it in this one case, then perhaps swimming while encumbered costs extra END.