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Fringe benefit


steph

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Taking poverty as a complication never made sense to me; it means you have to buy off your complication or money disappears from your hands or something.  Sorry I can't take any of the loot, I'm destitute...

It works better in games/genres that aren't all about collecting gold pieces. But I have seen characters start with a Poverty Complication, and after a few sessions they buy off the Comp or replace it with another one. ("I've now picked up a fear/hatred of _____ as a result of our last encounter.")

 

I did have a compulsive gambler PC in my last game who also took 3d6 Unluck, Only While Gambling to explain why he was always broke. On the flip side he bought a floating Contact defined as "people I owe money to" who were always glad to see him as long as he could borrow some cash from another PC.

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That just scratches the surface - what Complication ISN'T about special effects? 

 

 

You're confusing definition with special effects.  No matter how you call it, Secret Identity isn't fire or springs or some other effect.  Its just Secret Identity. Just because powers use a basic structure of special effects and you define them doesn't mean every single aspect of the game does.  Complications are fill-in-the-blanks, not special effects.

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You're confusing definition with special effects.  No matter how you call it, Secret Identity isn't fire or springs or some other effect.  Its just Secret Identity. Just because powers use a basic structure of special effects and you define them doesn't mean every single aspect of the game does.  Complications are fill-in-the-blanks, not special effects.

Calling my Blast a Lightning Bolt is also "definition". It in no way changes the mechanics. "Definition" and "special effects" are not the well-defined, discrete terms you seem to think they are.

 

To use the most obvious example, how do you adjudicate my Vulnerability to Electrical Attacks without using special effects? Why I am vulnerable to electricity is also a special effect. In the course of defining the complication, I incorporate its special effects, just as I incorporate the special effects of the power when I define it.

 

There are any number of reasons my character can be impoverished. Those reasons define the special effects for his poverty. Whether he is Destitute or only Poor defines the mechanics of his poverty. So, for that matter, would giving him a Negative Reputation, a Hunted By Creditors, a DF (always looks tattered due to his lack of wealth) or even a Social Complication. The mechanic chosen for poverty would dictate how it impacts the character in game. If he took any of the four complications I have described, but no wealth-related complication, would you let him charter a private jet, or would you apply the Special Effects of his other complications?

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It works better in games/genres that aren't all about collecting gold pieces. But I have seen characters start with a Poverty Complication, and after a few sessions they buy off the Comp or replace it with another one. ("I've now picked up a fear/hatred of _____ as a result of our last encounter.")

 

I like that happening in games, a dynamic set of abilities and complications rather than set in stone.  Gaining hunteds, new contacts, etc.

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The only way it makes sense to me is if someone is so vastly in debt no earnings make up for it, or they are cursed so the money just goes away all the time.  Anything else is covered by another complication; unluck, hunted by burglars, compulsive gambler, etc.

Thinking on it, when the group acquires a huge treasure, what happens in-game? The ones that had no points in Wealth have suddenly got a pile of wealth. Why not award each PC 5 bonus xp which increases Wealth? if you were Destitute before, you are now Poor, while the character who started off with 10 points in Wealth is now even richer at 15.

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Thinking on it, when the group acquires a huge treasure, what happens in-game? The ones that had no points in Wealth have suddenly got a pile of wealth. Why not award each PC 5 bonus xp which increases Wealth? if you were Destitute before, you are now Poor, while the character who started off with 10 points in Wealth is now even richer at 15.

 

This is why I generally don't allow Wealth in Fantasy campaigns where "big treasure" gains are not only possible, but kind of part of the genre (thanks to D&D). 

The issue I have with using wealth like you described is that the "jump" between Destitute and Poor is far less then between Wealthy and Filthy Rich. Yes, they are both a 5 point jump, but Destitute ( less then $3000 per year) to Poor (Less then $10,000 per year) is a lot different then Wealthy(10) (Less then $5,000,000 per year) to Filthy Rich (Unlimited income, more money then they can spend). Yes, both are a 5 point jump, but because of doubling effect the 5 points at the high end has a much great in game effect.

 

In  a "normal" Fantasy Games (adventuring, questing, etc...) if a character should be Wealthy (the Noble fringe benefit or the like) I generally treat it as a background perk, meaning they don't spend points on it, and they also don't get direct access to that money either. Yes, they are rich, but all that gold is back in the family castle or lands, and it is not like they can just make a phone call and have the money deposited in their bank account. If they aren't carrying it on them, then it might as well not exist for the most part. They would need to somehow send a message by courier across the continent (taking weeks or months to get there (if ever)) then the gold would need to be delivered by armed guards also back across the continent back to them (taking more weeks or months) with the hope that bandits don't capture it. 

 

So if the Perk of being Wealthy doesn't have any in-game effect, then they shouldn't need to pay character points for it. If the characters do buy the Fringe Benefit of being a noble or business ranks or the like,  then I do give them better gear and extra gold at the start of the campaign (based on how high they bought the Perk) because they have spent points on having that as their background, but once the campaign starts and they are far away from their home or business then they are on their own and at the mercy of what they can acquire in game. 

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The Wealth perk/complication might work well in an episodic campaign.

 

The situation would be like a lot of the Conan stories. He might have acquired a big treasure in the last story (episode), but he has spent/lost it all by the start of the next one.

 

I'm not sure how that would work in a group situation though. Everyone would probably have to be doing the same thing. (A Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser type situation?)

 

Needless to say, once you have tighter continuity, you have to take out the treasure more directly, which is likely to annoy your players.

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One idea that I'm noodling around with is treating wealth as some sort of roll. (Fate handles resources in a similar manner.) If the character makes the roll, he can afford the item. If not, he can't. Cheap items get a bonus, expensive ones get a penalty. The GM may ignore rolls on items that are inexpensive, or that the character could reasonably have expected to budget for.

 

In this system, loot is represented as a one-time bonus that can be applied to the roll. A chest of silver coins might be a +4 bonus to purchase rolls. A large ruby might be a +6, but it has to be used all at once! The characters might convert it to a more usable form, but that may decrease its value to a +5.

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This is why I generally don't allow Wealth in Fantasy campaigns where "big treasure" gains are not only possible, but kind of part of the genre (thanks to D&D).

Seems a perfectly reasonable campaign rule if the gaining of wealth is to be a campaign focus.

 

The issue I have with using wealth like you described is that the "jump" between Destitute and Poor is far less then between Wealthy and Filthy Rich. Yes, they are both a 5 point jump, but Destitute ( less then $3000 per year) to Poor (Less then $10,000 per year) is a lot different then Wealthy(10) (Less then $5,000,000 per year) to Filthy Rich (Unlimited income, more money then they can spend). Yes, both are a 5 point jump, but because of doubling effect the 5 points at the high end has a much great in game effect.

Yes, the Destitute guy, who was not good with money in the first place, didn't use it wisely and, although his circumstances have improved thanks to that influx of wealth, it has only had a limited impact on his resources in the long term. The Wealthy fellow, however, is already experienced in the use of wealth, and has contacts and opportunities due to his existing resources, which enable him to leverage this cash inflow into a much more effective ongoing income stream.

 

 

The rich get richer. YMMV (which is why "no wealth perk or complications" is a reasonable campaign rule). Alternatively, the guidelines for "wealth" can change. You likely are not measuring income in $$ anyway. In a D&D type model, perhaps each point invested in Wealth provides a fixed number of Gold Pieces, with 5 points doubling the number. This presupposes an economy much like that of 3e D&D, where the price of better gear increases exponentially, as does expected wealth by character level. This also means that 5 points of Wealth is way more valuable as a starting character (double your starting cash for gear!) than for a more experienced character (who has accumulated scads of loot from his adventures, so adding his starting wealth again is not even worth jotting down). In that case, maybe investing in wealth later means an increase commensurate with that point in the wealth cycle of the game, or maybe it means characters with Wealth are always ahead of the curve (their wealth comes from an income-generating source that increases - maybe they craft magic items), or maybe it means only starting characters can generate wealth with CP, and future rises and falls in fortune must happen in-game.

 

I also like IndianaJoe3's idea - price it as a bonus to the Purchase Roll. Now the character has a permanent advantage over his peers, that scales as he acquires additional wealth.

 

That's nothing unusual to Hero - we might design a VPP-based magic system where new spells can only be located in game, or decide crafting of magic weapons is a lost art so such gear can be found only by adventuring, so applying same to wealth seems like a minimal restriction.

 

In a "normal" Fantasy Games (adventuring, questing, etc...) if a character should be Wealthy (the Noble fringe benefit or the like) I generally treat it as a background perk, meaning they don't spend points on it, and they also don't get direct access to that money either. Yes, they are rich, but all that gold is back in the family castle or lands, and it is not like they can just make a phone call and have the money deposited in their bank account. If they aren't carrying it on them, then it might as well not exist for the most part. They would need to somehow send a message by courier across the continent (taking weeks or months to get there (if ever)) then the gold would need to be delivered by armed guards also back across the continent back to them (taking more weeks or months) with the hope that bandits don't capture it.

Only in gaming do we classify the fantastic as normal :)

 

Like any and every CP expenditure, Wealth should generate in-game value commensurate with its point cost. I'd allow your example even if wealth were allowed in-game. This character has wealth, but it will never impact the game, so it costs no points.

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Needless to say, once you have tighter continuity, you have to take out the treasure more directly, which is likely to annoy your players.

 

 

Its a pretty constant problem in any long-term game.  Players will tend not to spend money as fast as they take it in, even in a modest campaign.  There are ways to pull money out of the characters' pockets, ranging from the obnoxious to the clever. Thieves and fraud are one, but very unliked by players, who tend to become very vengeful.  You can really derail a campaign by having the players go after the thieves and everyone that they are connected to.

 

I like stuff such as exchange rates: we won't give you full value for those elven coins, those are from the previous king where the silver content was really low, etc.  Another is to provide ways for the players to spend money that they will voluntarily do, such as trade skills.  Being meticulous about charging for training and travel, upkeep nibbles away as well; living expenses, servants, etc.  Taxation is another; if you don't rake them over the coals too badly, players will put up with a tax at the gate like 1 coin per mount or weapon.

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One of my wife's characters had noble as a perk.  She was baron's daughter who ran away from a marriage she didn't want to be part of.  She had the money Perk as well.  It was just enough so my wife wouldn't have to do any gaming bookkeeping for the day-to-day life stuff.  It gave her the ability to get into places other people in the party couldn't get into.

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I just did a build like this, largely based on a real person - she is a cross-post from Martial Hero:

 

Red Lady (Ulaan Khatun)

 

Also Known As: Red Widow, Persian Princess

 

Background: Red Lady is a noble traveler from the Ilkhanate, the independent Mongol state centered in Iran.  She is the paternal aunt of Ghazan and Kharbanda [O ̈ ljeitu ̈ Ilkhan]. Among the Mongols, she is greatly respected, often referred to, highly revered and her words are valued and appreciated. She is sharp-minded and courageous, skilled in horsemanship [dha ̄tshaha ̄mahwa-furu ̄siyyah]. She was married to Urab, and her dwellings were not far from the borders of the lands of Islam, the Mamluk Sultanate.

When her husband was murdered, she rode on her own and killed his killer, beheaded him and hanged his head on the collar of her horse. It stayed there for a long time until she was approached about it and she then got rid of it. Some say that she only got rid of it when instructed by a royal decree [yarligh]. She never married again after Urab.

Aqqush al-Afram desired to marry her. He wrote to her about this and the Mamluk sultan and Sala ̄r started writing about him. He offered her Homs and its environs as a marriage gift [.sada ̄q] but she drove away his envoys and answered them with rejection. She said: “I advise faithfully [an.sah.u] the people of Muhammad, may peace be upon him. I do not advise this person or the other and if my words of advice [muna ̄.sah.a ̄t ̄ı] in favour of the Muslims are what stirred al-Afram’s interest in me, then I shall not continue to give them good advice [una ̄.sihuhum]. How does al-Afram dare to approach me? Who is al-Afram? My most insignificant horse groom [ku ̄talj ̄ı] is like al-Afram.” 

 

Personality: Red Lady loves good deeds and the benevolent.  She dislikes the diminishing role of women with the Islamization of her home, so she headed east.

 

Quote: "We are amused."

 

Powers/Tactics: She has the prowess of a classic Mongol warrior, which includes the slyness of a hunter.

 

Campaign Use: She needs new bodyguards and such, and will invite our characters to apply for the jobs.

 

Val Char Cost

 

13 STR 3
14 DEX 12
13 CON 6
12 BODY 4
13 INT 3
11 EGO 2
15 PRE 5
16 COM 0
 
6 PD 3
6 ED 3
4 SPD 16
6 REC 0
26 END 0
26 STUN 0
 
6" RUN 0
2" SWIM 0
2 1/2" LEAP 0
Characteristics Cost: 50
 
 
Cost Martial Arts Maneuver
 
3 Defensive Shot:  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +2 DCV, Range +0, Strike
4 Choke Hold:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 2d6 NND
3 Martial Grab:  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 23 STR for holding on
3 Martial Throw:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 2 1/2d6 +v/5, Target Falls
4 Jink:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +4 DCV, FMove, Dodge, Mounted Or On Foot
3 Weapon Element:  Axes, Maces, Hammers, and Picks, Blades, Lances
 
Martial Arts Cost: 20
 
Cost Skill
 
2 Animal Handler 12-
3 Breakfall 12-
3 Charm aka Seduction 12-, 14- vs. Mongols
3 High Society 12-, 14- vs. Mongols
2 KS: Archery 11-
2 KS: Wrestling 11-
3 PS: Hunter 12-
1 Language:  Old Mandarin (basic conversation)
3 Language: Persian (fluent conversation, literate)
0 Language: Mongolian (idiomatic)
3 Paramedics 12-
2 Navigation 12-
3 Persuasion 12-, 14- vs. Mongols
3 Riding 12-
3 Stealth 12-
3 Tactics 12-
3 Teamwork 12-
3 Tracking 12-
2 Weaponsmith (Bows) 12-
0 Everyman Skill- KS: Mongol Culture 8-
2 WP: Classic  Mongol Weapons 
 
Skills Cost: 49
 
 
Cost Talent
 
8 Mounted Warrior (HTH and Ranged Combat)
 
Talents Cost: 8
 
Cost Perquisites
 
2 Fringe Benefit: Member of Lower Nobility
5 Money: Very Well Off
4 Reputation: Mongols appreciate, respect, value and highly revere her, 14-
 
Perquisites Cost: 11
 
 
Cost Equipment  
 
0 Brigandine Armor: 4 PD/4 ED, OIF 
0 Small Shield: +1 DCV, 5 STR Min, OAF 
0 Survival Kit: +1 with Climbing, Mending, Navigation, Paramedic and Survival, OAF 
0 Lasso: Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF, Entangle and Character Both Take Damage, 1 Recoverable Charge, 6m Range 
0 Small Axe: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1, 0 END, OAF, 8 STR Min 
0 Scimitar: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1, 0 END, OAF, 12 STR Min 
0 Lance: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1, 0 END, OAF, 12 STR Minimum, No STR Bonus 
0 Medium Bow, 1d6+1K, STR Min 9, 16 Recoverable Charges, OAF, 2H, 350m Range 
0 Heavy Bow, 1 1/2d6K, STR Min 10, 16 Recoverable Charges, OAF, 2H, 350m Range 
0 Frog Crotch Arrows, 1d6K, 8 Recoverable Charges, OAF, 2H, 150m Range  [Notes: Designed to cut lanyards, bowstrings, etc.]
0 Willow Leaf Arrows, 1d6K AP, 8 Recoverable Charges, OAF, 2H, 350m Range 
0 Whistler Arrows: +15 PRE, Signals or Inspires Fear only plus 1d6K, 8 Recoverable Charges, OAF, 2H, 150m Range 
0 Flaming Arrows: 1d6K, Sticky, Continuous, 8 Continuing Charges lasting 5 Minutes each, OAF, 2H, 225m Range 
0 8888 cash
 
Total Character Cost: 138
 
Pts. Disadvantage
10 Distinctive Features: Mongol Warrior:  (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
20 Hunted by Shih (Chinese Knights):  8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)
15 Reputation:  Merciless Raider from the Steppes, 11- (Extreme)
10 Social Limitation:  Subject to Orders (Frequently, Minor)
 
Disadvantage Points: 55
Base Points: 100   
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 17
Experience Unspent: 17
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