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Champions Villain (Volume) 4: Organizations; What Do You Expect Out Of This?


steriaca

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On further reflection, I don't think a specific, dedicated "Henchmen Inc." organization would be a good fit for the established CU. As I mentioned earlier on the thread, if a villain needs a large number of cannon fodder, or a smaller body of well-trained agents, there are already sources for those. There's also a community/subculture of competent, reliable, but otherwise unexceptional thugs from which supervillains can hire some backup muscle for their operations. There are even groups like Villainy Unlimited (from Cops, Crews, And Cabals) which provide legitimate services which can still be difficult for super-criminals to obtain: legal representation, bail bonding, financial counseling, insurance.

Except you are referring to one book out of edition-CCC is 5th ed. And things can change between editions. And again with Telios you're reffering to another book that people may or may not own. Plus perhaps people don't want clone agents?

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Except you are referring to one book out of edition-CCC is 5th ed. And things can change between editions. And again with Telios you're reffering to another book that people may or may not own. Plus perhaps people don't want clone agents?

 

Wait, are you saying that Champions books should ignore the presence of characters and groups that appear in other books? They can't refer to the Empyreans because some people may not own Hidden Lands? Hero Games publishes books detailing particular elements of the setting, with the hope that folks who want more info about those elements will buy their books.

 

Sure things can change between editions. But how can we anticipate that? As far as the official setting goes, what's published is all we have for establishing continuity. Teleios's clone-selling business is specified in his full write-up in Champions Villains Vol. 1, while Bastion Alpha Security is summarized in Champions Universe for Sixth Edition. So the latest official word we have includes those elements.

 

Also LL I'm thinking too that with Hwnchmen Inc, you can have various type of agents. Grab should have agents that have CvK whereas Pulsar may not.

 

Pursuant to this point and the previous one, what I was suggesting in my earlier post about a general criminal service referral agency, is that there's a role for an umbrella organization which ties together the available resources set out in the various books, so someone like GRAB can indeed hire agents with the mindset they want. A job posting can go out to those henchman watering holes, with the proviso, "Casual killers need not apply." That's the sort of thing that could be detailed in a book like CV Vol. 4.

 

I agree that how the issue you describe is resolved should be addressed; I'm just not convinced that a "henchman temp agency" that does only that is the best way to go in context. But you can legitimately disagree, which is fine. We're all just tossing ideas around which the writers of CVV4 are under no obligation to listen to anyway. ;)

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There are even groups like Villainy Unlimited (from Cops, Crews, And Cabals) which provide legitimate services which can still be difficult for super-criminals to obtain: legal representation, bail bonding, financial counseling, insurance, medical care, etc.

 

Huh, another book I never heard of. Clearly, I was away too long and still have much to catch up on.

 

Well, with a large setting reviewing what's already been done is an important part of brainstorming.

 

Dean Shomshak

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LL I'm not saying to ignore current continuity however I was pointing out that there is some changes between editions such as VIPER & DEMON yet you want to stick to what is in CKC and its 5th just because?

 

I have nothing per se against Telios.

1) He is written in another book. Not everyone will either have nor want it.

2) Clones are not what I envisioned for hired Henchmen. Ymmv. How can you have the good boy in wrong crowd scenario or the lets infiltrate into organization scenario?

3) I'm not comic book expert but this seems very comic book like.

4) And as for continuity, we have Bullet & the Raiders waaaaay before Telios. His group is what I'm basing Hencmen Inc on and his brother from Normals Unbound grew up and runs it.

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LL I'm not saying to ignore current continuity however I was pointing out that there is some changes between editions such as VIPER & DEMON yet you want to stick to what is in CKC and its 5th just because?

 

I have nothing per se against Telios.

1) He is written in another book. Not everyone will either have nor want it.

2) Clones are not what I envisioned for hired Henchmen. Ymmv. How can you have the good boy in wrong crowd scenario or the lets infiltrate into organization scenario?

3) I'm not comic book expert but this seems very comic book like.

4) And as for continuity, we have Bullet & the Raiders waaaaay before Telios. His group is what I'm basing Hencmen Inc on and his brother from Normals Unbound grew up and runs it.

 

Okay, this is the last tit-for-tat I'm going to get into on this subject, because I loathe that kind of Internet death spiral.

 

First of all, as I specifically said, you can reasonably disagree with me that a Henchmen Inc.book is not necessary for this setting. I have no problem with that. If Hero Games eventually decides to create such a group, if it's well done I won't protest. You're right, it's certainly in-genre. My previously posted suggestion was for something that builds on what's already established for the Champions Universe, to allow for exactly the scenarios you describe, plus more. My personal feeling is that doing so would be logical and easier based on the precedents, and make Henchmen Inc redundant. I'm not trying to persuade you to the same view.

 

But please don't put words in my mouth. At no time did I mention CKC or declare we had to confine ourselves to 5E. I cited examples in the 6E Champions Universe book and Champions Villains trilogy, because those are the latest official sources for the subjects they cover. In other cases those sources happen to be 5E books. In a few cases those 5E sources are contradicted by a later 6E reference. As Steve Long has stated on these forums, the later publication should be considered the official version. If there isn't a contradiction the 5E source is the latest statement on the issue.

 

Many Hero Games books cover particular subjects in greater detail than others, or are the only places those subjects are mentioned. If gamers want to know the full scope of the current incarnation of VIPER, they buy VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent, which is for 5E but is the only book containing those details. If they don't want to buy that book, they'll have to invent whatever isn't covered in what books they do own, or create their own comparable agency, or just ignore the presence of VIPER. Their own campaign versions of the Champions setting won't crash whichever course they choose.

 

If Hero Games did create a Henchmen Inc., and put it in Champions Villains Vol. 4, and a gamer wanted the details about that group, he'd have to buy the book. If he only wanted to know about HI and wasn't interested in the other organizations in it, he'd still have to buy the book. And that's fair, because Hero Games is in the business of selling books. I don't see not owning a particular book as in itself a valid reason for creating something redundant to it in another book by the same publisher about the same setting. If instead of Henchmen Inc., Hero Games created the type of umbrella referral service I described earlier on this thread, noting the precedents for what resources can be accessed through it, that would address the need you identify. But if you wanted to know about that group you'd still have to buy that book.

 

BTW Bullet's Raiders weren't henchmen in the sense of normal human agents, as the rest of this discussion has involved. They were mercenary supervillains, such as are covered in CV Vol. 2. (FWIW CV2 includes a clear analogue to Bullet's Raiders for 6E, MercForce One.)

 

And that's all I have to say on this topic. You're welcome to disagree, and to respond if you choose. But I'm moving on. :)

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Can someone make a list of all known 5th and 6th edition villainous and quasi-villainous orginzations in the Champions Multiverse, so we can see what exactly we have before we say "we need x orginzation and y orginzation"? People with more books than myself.

 

Anything directly involved in the Champions Universe or the past of the Champions Universe only. No need to post a group which was brought up in Fantasy Hero or Star Hero unless it can be proven that there influence is felt in the current Champions Universe or the orgin of his group stems from our current Champions Universe timeline.

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Inventory of the villainous orginzations which exist. (I reserve the right to update this list, so stay tooned folks).

 

Name: The Cabal

Agents: normal level criminals

Leadership: The Eleat.

Goles: Make tons of illegal cash for the Eleat.

Flavor: The group founder was none other than "the Napoleon of Crime" himself, Professer James Moriarty himself. The Eleat may be old public domain noval villains from the Victorian Age, or not.

 

Name: Card Sharks

Agents: Clubs (mussle), Diamonds (thieves), Spades (assasions), and Hearts (confidence men) agents, plus Hole agents (hidden agents).

Leadership: Card Shark (founder/grand leader), Blackjack (Club leader), Pokerface (Diamond leader), Dead Man's Hand (Spades leader), and Red Queen (Hearts leader).

Goles: Command orginzied crime in Hudson City, and to expand said orginzation.

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Inventory of the villainous orginzations which exist. (I reserve the right to update this list, so stay tooned folks).

 

Name: The Cabal

Agents: normal level criminals

Leadership: The Eleat.

Goles: Make tons of illegal cash for the Eleat.

Flavor: The group founder was none other than "the Napoleon of Crime" himself, Professer James Moriarty himself. The Eleat may be old public domain noval villains from the Victorian Age, or not.

 

Name: Card Sharks

Agents: Clubs (mussle), Diamonds (thieves), Spades (assasions), and Hearts (confidence men) agents, plus Hole agents (hidden agents).

Leadership: Card Shark (founder/grand leader), Blackjack (Club leader), Pokerface (Diamond leader), Dead Man's Hand (Spades leader), and Red Queen (Hearts leader).

Goles: Command orginzied crime in Hudson City, and to expand said orginzation.

 

I would strongly recommend excluding any group that's only described in the Dark Champions or Pulp Hero lines. Even though Hudson City exists on official Champions Earth, all the published books treat it as a separate continuity, not even mentioning characters from one line in books for the other. While some Pulp Hero stuff like the Cabal are never mentioned as still existing in the present day.

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I would strongly recommend excluding any group that's only described in the Dark Champions or Pulp Hero lines. Even though Hudson City exists on official Champions Earth, all the published books treat it as a separate continuity, not even mentioning characters from one line in books for the other. While some Pulp Hero stuff like the Cabal are never mentioned as still existing in the present day.

Something to think about. If Card Shark doesn't exist, then we do need an organization which has your typical orginazed crime agents to belong to. Al la Marvel's Kingpin and Magna.

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Something to think about. If Card Shark doesn't exist, then we do need an organization which has your typical organized crime agents to belong to. Al la Marvel's Kingpin and Magna.

 

Hmm... that is an interesting subject to ponder. The Champions setting books have mentioned the org-crime groups we have in the real world, like the Mafia, Triads, drug cartels, and so on. Some of these have allied with or been partially subsumed into larger supervillainous groups like VIPER and the Cult of the Red Banner. There are examples of supervillains forming their own criminal gangs, like Kevin Poe with the New Purple Gang; or even dominating org-crime in other countries, as Slun does in Russia.

 

Cops, Crew, And Cabals describes a group calling itself ICON, for "International CONsortium," which operates in numerous countries including the United States. For the most part it confines itself to traditional criminal activities such as drug smuggling, robbery, and forging, and eschews flashy costumes and supertech weapons a la VIPER; although ICON's leaders aspire to build to as much power and wealth as VIPER eventually.

 

I guess the question then becomes, should there be a pure org-crime group in the four-color CU that's as organizationally and visually distinctive as, say, the Card Shark crew?

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There is one problem with that...The answer to the question "what happened to Luthor Black in 2012". Beyond that, just give me the write-ups for a DEMON Brother and Outer Circle Morbain and be on your way.

 

Not really. 

 

For me Luthor Black published plan is irrelevant.  For organization books I usually slash and burn the "official" goals and objectives and insert ones more suitable for my campaign.  DEMON was one of the easier ones to do this with for me.  I removed the Kings of Edom and such and inserted my own big evil and then re-focused objectives and such.    Re-tooled Viper too.

 

A great organization book is fully complete for play on one hand for the people that want it that way, but on the other ares easy to remove big picture details for easy customization.  For me they take care of all the rank and file creation stuff that is labor intensive so I can focus on the fun. 

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As I've mentioned elsewhere, rogue government agencies.

 

Just to deal with this category for a moment, I think it would be helpful in developing such an agency, to identify why and what makes it "rogue." What's its motivation, its agenda? Is it just trying to grab power, maybe by subverting or overthrowing the current government? Has it identified and focused on a particular thing as a threat, which it believes requires extreme measures to counter? Does it have a laudable goal, but has become excessive in the pursuit of that goal?

 

Earlier on the thread I mentioned the CU American DoD's Department 17, which has long researched ways to safely and reliably create superhumans to serve the government, as well as methods to make them more controllable. It's an extremely secret project, and its funding sometimes falls short of its aspirations. Any of those facets of D17 is open to abuse by members who believe the end justifies the means. (It's also one of the more interesting potential character origins in the setting IMHO.)

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I have an idea for a orginized crime network. "SYN-Net" is the name of a orginzation which controls crime in the multiple state area (Wisconsin, Illinois, Mishagen, Minasota, and any other states you feel fit). The leadership is the mysterious "Boss". Everyone in the org believes Boss is a powerful super villian with amazing powers, but multiple personalities. In reality, "Boss" is the rulling party, a group pretending to be a single person. Some of the "Boss" have superpowers, others have more social/political powers.

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