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4, 5 or 6?


GCMorris

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To sum up my last several posts GCMorris is this. I think Champions Complete at $40 is a reasonable price for a new book. I would look if possible at the mechanics on its own merits. If 6th allows you builds easier than possible 4th/5th more than any complex builds than was 4th/5th then its still a reasonable buy. If you decide that the changes don't really help your builds/game stylebthan stay with 4th. Either way, I would look at each edition based on its merits and flaws rather than some opinions that they changed the system therefore its no good.

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In my view, if we had started 1e with Aid and Drain, we would never have had Transfer. All it does is link a Self Only Aid to a Drain.

 

I disagree.  1-3e were about simulating superhero comics.  You can pretty much look at the Powers list in the Champions core book from then and point to which contemporary comic book characters went with which Powers.  The impulse to "simplify" by removing some Powers didn't really start until 5e, with Instant Change being removed.  Like, we had Force Field as its own Power until 6e. 

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I think the reason we had Transfer instead of Aid was the superheroic roots, although enhancing others' abilities also shows up in Supers - but not as iconic as the Parasite, et al.

 

Force Field, to me, was evolution. Remember back in 1e when Armor was what, 3 points of rDEF for 5 points, and Damage Resistance made half your defenses resistant for 15 points, all of them for 30 points? They all gradually morphed to the Force Field pricing structure - rDEF costing a 50% premium. With the pricing aligned, it did not need to be a separate power, so it followed Armor to the trash pile. I think Armor left in 4e, didn't it?

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We all have had huge arguments about edition changes and there are those who hold out, refusing to move on or buy the next edition.

I don't think a newbie coming to the game with fresh eyes would see significant differences beyond ever increasing page counts of the rules. We really do have a game that is substantively the same as it was all those years ago. That is exemplified to me when I pick up a first edition villain and, with a few adjustments for power level, can pretty much drop him into my current adventure. He might look a little bit two dimensional but fundamentally he is the same.

Obviously I can spot the design issues as Doc FirstEdition is built with different fundamental assumptions in mind, such as END costs, power framework shenanigans and what constitutes an acceptable suite of skills but the fundamentals are all pretty much the same.

A question of 4th, 5th or 6th to me is pretty irrelevant. I have them all. I probably run games with 4th edition hangovers that I never got round to updating in my understanding of the rules, I have 6th edition stuff in there that I like. This is HERO. You build the game you want. Each edition simply gives you a different perspective on how you might do that. Anyone that wants to adopt a whole edition and make everything else Harram, is missing something fundamental about the system.

I love a system argument as much as the next geek but if you can afford it why would you not pick up a new edition and mine it for the things that you like??

Doc

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Just to list some good things of 6th over 5th

  • Absorption is not a roll
  • OCV/DCV broken out of Dex
  • HA and HtHKA is not limited to twice the base dice
  • Return of regeneration as a power
  • Attack vs Alternate Defenses advantage being proportional to the commonality of the defenses
  • Attack against an Alternate Combat Value advantage allows you to change a OCV attack to mental CV attack without changing the defense.
  • Removal of Find Weakness - I think it was too devastating in RaW for Champions especially at higher dice.  Some may disagree.
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Other advantages include:

  • Barrier! (I always hated using Entangles to create Walls... It was just all kinds of stupid that a lingering wall had an entirely different pricing structure from ephemeral walls).
  • Its easier to calculate secondary characteristics (such as BODY, STUN, END, etc).
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Also: 

  • Damage (should be "effect") Over Time advantage makes many builds more clean and simple
  • Restructuring and repricing area effect to be more variable and useful
  • Transform 4-stage price structure
  • Reduced cost for Ambidexterity

Stuff I didn't think worked as well

  • Making Missile Deflection for everyone instead of an actual power
  • Reflection and Deflection powers
  • Deleting Comeliness
  • Cutting price of Recovery and Endurance so low END is meaningless
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To be the contrarian:

 

- anyone can Block. Why can't anyone Block an incoming thrown rock? We often see characters in the source material grab an object and Block incoming bullets and energy blasts as well.

 

- I was a fan of comeliness, however Steve Long made the great point that every other characteristic had its own unique effects. Comeliness did not. That made Comeliness "not a characteristic". Virtually every suggested use of COM was a PRE modifier, so that seems to suggest COM is more appropriately structured as a PRE modifier. Appearance is a special effect - what mechanics you want it to have depends on what you envision it achieving. Maybe it makes people more likely to listen to you (bonus to interaction skills). Maybe it makes them more likely to dismiss you as "bubble headed pretty boy/girl" (penalty to interaction skills).

 

- Prior to 6e, I rarely saw anyone buy up END and REC rather than buy Reduced END. Now, buying REC and END instead is a viable choice. To me that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

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People always talk about the "page count difference between 5e and 6e"  Most of that page count is in larger font, more artwork in the book, A change to the layout, Sample characters, and Genre essays.. Also the heavier paper in 6e1 and 6e2 contributed to it being in 2 volumes. Pretty much the only things that changed between the editions were some powers. When you really look at the page count difference between 6e's books and 5er you find that they really AREN'T that different.

So the peeps that complained about the size and cost of the hardcover 6e books now have Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete.

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Indeed. Hell I own and use both CC and FHC. I like that they are small enough that I can flip through them to find what I am looking for by muscle memory, and that everything I need is condensed into ~200 pages... as opposed to the 3,000-10,000 pages worth of Pathfinder Books I need to simulate a fraction of that versatility... poorly.

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Yeah, I sort of look at them as prototypes for how a future edition would be produced if I were in charge: a basic rulebook in the mold of the Complete books, but customized (with lots of pre-built stuff) for a specific campaign setting, along with a massive System Reference in the mold of the BBB that lays out the entire system in a comprehensive and heavily indexed manner. The former would be ideal for newcomers, while the latter would be ideal for the veterans and hardcore DIYers. And as the newcomers became more familiar with the system, they could always refer to the System Reference for the nitty gritty details (and the bazillion options) not described in the more focused, lightweight (campaign-based) book.

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You know, we seem to be stuck in a paper paradigm, even our electronic rules are essentially digital paper, not truly electronic.

 

I think that the big system reference should be hidden on the interwebs...

 

I am waiting for the first company to truly embrace digital to make things easier for players and GMs. I would love to see a rulebook that really works on a tablet, that takes advantage of the flexibility that digital text can provide. Paper is a fantastic technology and pdfs do not provide the same kind of value that a decent book does. However, the potential is there.

 

For HERO the advantages should be huge - with all the detail able to be called when it is needed and folded away when it is not.

 

I am also waiting for that time when the GM can claim that screen space that some players use during a game for game stuff. Interactive character sheets, notes etc. All the things that Roll20 provides at the game table. But I think that is several steps AFTER a decent digital rulebook. (and I am aware I am so far off topic now that I am going to stop dreaming and get back to work).

 

Doc

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Pathfinder's PRD (Pathfinder Reference Document) is a searchable online rules codex which contains every scrap of text from roughly 20 of the source-books in their Core Line. The Mobile interface is especially nice, and loads quickly even on my smart-phone. The PRD also gets updated whenever the publishers errata or revise the books it contains (for better or worse).

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First off pull down the documents “Champions Complete Converting Characters” 4 pages http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/153-champions-complete-converting-characters/ and “Sixth Edition Character Conversion Summary” 2 pages  http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/154-sixth-edition-character-conversion-summary/ from Hero Downloads to get a short rundown on the changes. 

 

For myself I liberally mix and match between versions and within versions regardless of genre.  The actual differences are pretty minor at the end of the day and really depend on just how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

 

For example 6th Ed skills:  Biology is exploded into 20-25 disciplines, sub disciplines and specialties.  You can just pay 2 points for 11- in Biology plus 7 pts for an 18- to be a master of everything Biology.  Or do you make the player purchase each of the 20 plus possible sub-categories spending 50 plus points to not be as good? 

 

Most of Hero has this built-in flexibility that allows the GM and the players to scale the system to what they actually want.  I like to think of Hero as approaching it not as Rules as Written, but Degree of Rues as Written. 

 

Which is best?

4th, 5th or 6th?

My personal answer is none.  They are all about the same with very minor differences.  If you learn how to play/GM one version you know how to PLAY all three.  PC/NPC/Equip/Device building is also pretty much the same with some minor cost variance and a few selection availability changes.

 

My version changes were driven by the availability of the books at my FLGS.  Or if I am running a game at a location, my players should be able to get the rulebook at that location. 

 

Yours will depend on the spark you get from the sessions you are running.   IMO 4th felt more Superhero’y to me than the later versions.   But 5th and 6th were solid rulesets even if the books felt more “sterile” and textbook like. 

Read the character conversion docs and they should give you an idea of the differences game-mechanics wise.

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