zslane Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Also, are GMs no longer looking over character sheets before the campaign? That is a can of worms you probably don't want to open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Netzilla pg 57 under Deflection. To paraphase. Deflection allows you to disregard the normal need for shield or focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Walsh Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 I suspect folks were thinking of the various non-champs genre books for Missile Deflection requiring a focus (Star Hero for example). I am mildly curious as to if 1e had any further differences. I opened 1e and....it's a skill! And instead of representing the ability to parry or dodge incoming attacks, it just represents a parry. It's pretty much the same as any other skill, but relatively expensive: 9+(DEX/5) for 10 pts, +1 for +3 pts. Doesn't work against Ego attacks, NND attacks, and attacks that aren't perceived by the deflector. There's still the limit of no more than 1/2 the weight the character can lift. But it is an action that can be aborted to. Otherwise, the writeup is substantially the same as 2e....except for the last two sentences: "Missile Deflection normally requires an implement of some kind (a shield, a wrist band, billy club, etc.). The character does not get the 'Focus' limitation on Missile Deflection because of this implement." So, a few surprises there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Netzilla I am reading the rule for deflection to over rule the for blocking else why is it even in there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Many people have suggested that the need to purchase specialized powers to be able to apply tropes Ummm whats the list of powers for? Wait why should I pay for Blast, my alien should get that for free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 I opened 1e and....it's a skill! And instead of representing the ability to parry or dodge incoming attacks, it just represents a parry. It's pretty much the same as any other skill, but relatively expensive: 9+(DEX/5) for 10 pts, +1 for +3 pts. Doesn't work against Ego attacks, NND attacks, and attacks that aren't perceived by the deflector. There's still the limit of no more than 1/2 the weight the character can lift. But it is an action that can be aborted to. Otherwise, the writeup is substantially the same as 2e....except for the last two sentences: "Missile Deflection normally requires an implement of some kind (a shield, a wrist band, billy club, etc.). The character does not get the 'Focus' limitation on Missile Deflection because of this implement." So, a few surprises there! THERE it is - thanks! To me, the problem is not that the ability to block ranged attacks is available by default in 6e, but the wishy washy "well, you can, but maybe you can't, or perhaps you need an object, or sometimes there might be a penalty" model. Seriously, Billy Ballplayer has to pay for Deflection to be able to hit a baseball (or a rock) thrown at him and prevent it striking him? The game defines lots of things "everyone" can do with some sense of reliability that, in the real world, not everyone can do with any real reliability. Why? Because the "everyone" who can do these things in Hero is a Cinematic Action Everyone. Sure, by RAW, Aunt May can Haymaker and Dive for Cover (even 10- succeeds half the time). But we don't role play her that way as she is not a Cinematic Action Hero. Does using an attack action to Block really suspend disbelief so much? Watch the opening scenes in Star Wars when C-3P0 and Artoo Detoo walk across a hall through a hail of Blaster fire, using a Block with the SFX of "you missed me". It doesn't seem any more unreasonable than assuming they are dodging. An HTH Blcok can block a lightsaber - do you do that by putting your arm up in the way, or do you role play it in a manner consistent with the situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Seriously, Billy Ballplayer has to pay for Deflection to be able to hit a baseball (or a rock) thrown at him and prevent it striking him? Throw a ball at someone who has spent absolutely no time playing baseball or hitting things with a stick and see how well he does at it. once in a while he'll roll a 3 and tag it. Billy Baseball spent points to learn a skill, that's why league minimum is $500,000 a year for MLB. Normal people cannot deflect things thrown at them, so normal people ought not get the skill for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Throw a ball at someone who has spent absolutely no time playing baseball or hitting things with a stick and see how well he does at it. once in a while he'll roll a 3 and tag it. Billy Baseball spent points to learn a skill, that's why league minimum is $500,000 a year for MLB. Normal people cannot deflect things thrown at them, so normal people ought not get the skill for free. Normal people also do not become action movie heroes, Jedi, sorcerors, superheroes or straight-jawed pulp heroes. I do not play RPG's to play normal people. Show me that you can take a few wild swing on a Toyota and demolish it in a minute or so (10 average 5d6 Haymakers will more than take care of 15 BOD past 30 defenses). Perhaps you can Dive 2 meters to avoid gunfire, evading half of the shots (a standard Dive for Cover roll)? I suggest we try this with something a bit less lethal, say a paintball gun, to test your Diving for Cover skills! I suspect you will be at least as successful at these actions as you would be at knocking paper airplanes, or dodgeballs, hurled at you away before they strike you, and I think an action movie hero will do even better. He has a way better OCV, and the people targeting him have a way better OCV than the ones that will throw dodgeballs, or tennis balls, or paper planes at you or me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Normal people also do not become action movie heroes, Jedi, sorcerors, superheroes or straight-jawed pulp heroes. I do not play RPG's to play normal people. Me either, but the rules encompass normal people when it doesn't require a purchase. Perhaps you can Dive 2 meters to avoid gunfire, evading half of the shots (a standard Dive for Cover roll)? I suggest we try this with something a bit less lethal, say a paintball gun, to test your Diving for Cover skills! With my normal person 8 DEX? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Throw a ball at someone who has spent absolutely no time playing baseball or hitting things with a stick and see how well he does at it. once in a while he'll roll a 3 and tag it. Billy Baseball spent points to learn a skill, that's why league minimum is $500,000 a year for MLB. Normal people cannot deflect things thrown at them, so normal people ought not get the skill for free. Sounds to me like they have a reduced chance to hit rather than no chance. Take a normal OCV 3 person vs a high school pitcher who probably has 2 or 3 CSLs with Thrown Baseball and they're already at an 8- or 9-. If the GM opts to exercise their right to apply a penalty for blocking a ranged attack and they're down in the 4-6 or less range. Against a pro player, who'll not only have more levels but decent odds of a higher OCV due to years of athletic development, and Joe Norm will need a 3-. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 That is a can of worms you probably don't want to open. Eh, I've opened that can of worms many times on these boards in the past. I have a long history advocating against 'creating characters in a vacuum.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Netzilla I am reading the rule for deflection to over rule the for blocking else why is it even in there? Netzilla pg 57 under Deflection. To paraphase. Deflection allows you to disregard the normal need for shield or focus.The actual relevant wording is and to disregard the usual need for a shield or similar object "Usual" is an important qualifier. As stated under the rules for Block, GMs are well within their rights to require an object. However, words like "usual" and "may" are what keeps this from being a hard requirement. Hugh's complaint about the wishy-washy wording of this rule is certainly understandable. On the other hand, when people complain about 6e1 & 2 being over 1,000 pages long, I have this thread as an example of why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Me either, but the rules encompass normal people when it doesn't require a purchase. Hero is designed to simulate cinematic reality. A side effect of this is Hero's notorious and long-standing issues modeling things at the low end of the scale (just a few of which, Hugh just provided examples of). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Found the rule, couldn't delete the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Throw a ball at someone who has spent absolutely no time playing baseball or hitting things with a stick and see how well he does at it. once in a while he'll roll a 3 and tag it. Billy Baseball spent points to learn a skill, that's why league minimum is $500,000 a year for MLB. Normal people cannot deflect things thrown at them, so normal people ought not get the skill for free. Sure they can. It's much easier to deflect something thrown at you than to hit it with a 3' long piece of wood less than 5" wide. People do it all of the time. It's called Catching. Now something going faster than a throw becomes harder, but as a gm you can adjust the difficulty if you are running a realistic game, for someone to deflect arrows and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 The actual relevant wording is "Usual" is an important qualifier. As stated under the rules for Block, GMs are well within their rights to require an object. However, words like "usual" and "may" are what keeps this from being a hard requirement. Hugh's complaint about the wishy-washy wording of this rule is certainly understandable. On the other hand, when people complain about 6e1 & 2 being over 1,000 pages long, I have this thread as an example of why. Usual is the qualifier and that means you need it. Not sure why you are still insisting otherwise. Take the whole paragrapgh together and its ckear that in order to do something without focus you need deflect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Hugh and Netzilla you both though stated the crux of my issue with it. Its the wishy-washy nature of it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Netzilla if I went with buying off the penalty with levels, would it be unreasonable then to require special effect modifier? Example (value just top of my head) for Super hero Thrown -2 Arrows -1 Bullets -1/2 All no modifier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Oh and Hugh the droids from Star Wars? That was Dodge and perhaps some Force points spent as well. ; ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Usual is the qualifier and that means you need it. Not sure why you are still insisting otherwise. Take the whole paragrapgh together and its ckear that in order to do something without focus you need deflect. "Usual" does not mean "always". The rules clearly state that it's up to the GM. Otherwise, there would be no point in the use of the word "may" in the Block definition. To Block a Ranged attack, the character must be the target of the attack, or must be adjacent to the target. The GM may also require that a character attempting such a Block have a shield or some other appropriate means of blocking, depending on the Special Effects involved. Emphasis added to highlight the difference in wording between "must" and "may". That is a deliberate difference in word choice. If a focus were always required, the rules would continue to use the word "must" or one of its synonyms, not switch to "may". Again, taken in conjunction with the use of the similarly soft requirement of "usually" from the Deflect rules, and the rules clearly put this in the hands of a GM ruling to be based on the SFX involved. Netzilla if I went with buying off the penalty with levels, would it be unreasonable then to require special effect modifier? Example (value just top of my head) for Super hero Thrown -2 Arrows -1 Bullets -1/2 All no modifier As with the rest of this, that's a GM call. If you're the GM, then its up to you. Personally, I wouldn't do it that way because I think it gives too much mechanical weight to the SFX involved, which is the problem I had with the old Missile Deflection rules (and the currently too-open Block rules). With what you have written (and with the old rules), because I write "Laser" for the SFX of my 8d6 Blast, I'm get a distinct mechanical advantage over someone who chooses to write "Batarang" next to their 8d6 Blast. Even though we both paid the same amount of points, I get the greater utility. If you're okay with doing that as a GM, go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Me either, but the rules encompass normal people when it doesn't require a purchase. With my normal person 8 DEX? I looked the maneuver up specifically. Normal Person DEX = 11- base DEX roll. DFC imposes a -1 penalty per 2 meters (or part thereof), which reduces the roll to 10-. That is a 50% probability on 3d6. So, 50% of the time, you should be able to jump out of the way of gunfire (or a lightning bolt) with your Normal Person DEX, if Hero has accurately captured Normal People rather than Cinematic People. If it has, however, it has failed in its mission statement to present Cinematic Reality. Oh and Hugh the droids from Star Wars? That was Dodge and perhaps some Force points spent as well. ; ) It looks no more like a Dodge than a Block. They just scuttled across the corridor. I'm not adding optional rules to Hero for Droids. Hmmm...perhaps it is "Boy we are lucky droids" - +10 Block OCV (and IPE on Block and the levels, if you must). Or +10 Dodge DCV built the same way. Either one can look exactly the same because (all together now) in Hero, Mechanics and SFX are not linked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Netzilla definition of usual is normal or routine. Therefore it is expected unless otherwise noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Netzilla definition of usual is normal or routine. Therefore it is expected unless otherwise noted. And whose job is it to note otherwise? Could it be that the rules leave that up to the GM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Throw a ball at someone who has spent absolutely no time playing baseball or hitting things with a stick and see how well he does at it. once in a while he'll roll a 3 and tag it. Billy Baseball spent points to learn a skill, that's why league minimum is $500,000 a year for MLB. Normal people cannot deflect things thrown at them, so normal people ought not get the skill for free. Then restrict it to PCs and significant NPCs, just like the rules don't prohibit Aunt May diving for cover, or taking out a mugger with a 5d6 Haymaker, but you would probably not Role Play her doing so in a game. [FLASHBACK to 1e Combat Example - "tough old lady"] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Hugh I made a reference to WEG rules which explained that scene. And Force points and character points spend like HAP, only they had that way before Hero did. : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.