4, 5 or 6?

[Cantriped]

It is a little unintuitive how Missile Reflection works... Deflection is pretty simple enough though.

[Ninja-Bear]

It is a little unintuitive how Missile Reflection works... Deflection is pretty simple enough though.

In pre-6th when deflection was missile deflection i wanted a martial artist to block arrows barehanded, all I did was buy MD at that level. Now I'm not so sure. If I want a swordsman to deflect energy bolts because of his sword of power, how do you do thst?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the power made more sense than making it free for everybody.  That was a change that needn't have happened, now its just confusing and complicated.

[Netzilla]

I don't find it confusing. The GM assesses a penalty to the block roll based on what is being blocked, what is being used to block and genre. So, a knight using his shield to block a thrown spear in a Arthurian game would have no penalty and be -2 for an arrow. A samurai cutting an arrow with his katana in a chanbara game would only be -1. Captain Flag has no penalties to block bullets with his shield. Mike Hammer has no chance to block bullet's at all in a noir detective game. Basically, it's a campaign decision like DC limits.

[Ninja-Bear]

I don't find it confusing. The GM assesses a penalty to the block roll based on what is being blocked, what is being used to block and genre. So, a knight using his shield to block a thrown spear in a Arthurian game would have no penalty and be -2 for an arrow. A samurai cutting an arrow with his katana in a chanbara game would only be -1. Captain Flag has no penalties to block bullets with his shield. Mike Hammer has no chance to block bullet's at all in a noir detective game. Basically, it's a campaign decision like DC limits.

So... guy 1 in Champs game has paid for normal sword and can't deflect blast while guy 2 buys same sword, defines it as magical and is able to deflect same blast for same points?

[Hugh Neilson]

In pre-6th when deflection was missile deflection i wanted a martial artist to block arrows barehanded, all I did was buy MD at that level. Now I'm not so sure. If I want a swordsman to deflect energy bolts because of his sword of power, how do you do thst?

I think the problem is that we did NOT expand the Block concept far enough, leaving this "oh, you can block all HTH attacks automatically with the simple use of a Block maneuver, but you can only block ranged attacks if the GM thinks it's OK, and at whatever penalty he assigns".  But we already have this with HTH blocks - an unarmed block against an armed opponent is noted in the rules as "GM can assign a -1 to -3 penalty". He can block "most HTH attacks unless the GM rules otherwise" - so how do I ensure my magical sword can block a Lightsaber - or that my Lightsaber cannot be blocked?

 

Should we need a specially purchased power to use one Energy Blast to Block another? For a Knight to block an arrow with his Shield? For a Jedi to block blaster fire with his Lightsaber? These are basically the examples from 6e, but all require "GMs permission". Why do we need GM Permission to apply a genre trope? Why is it harder to Block a crossbow bolt than my no-range Flechette Crossbow that only works in HTH range?

 

The rules note that "trying to Block a laser beam with one's bare hands tends to be a Very Bad Idea", but who says that is the only possible SFX for a Block? Alternatively, why is it a better idea if it's a LaserSword, or if the Laser is short range (must be used in HTH)?

 

Does a Sling hurl rocks (lowest level of missile deflection) or are they more like arrows or bullets? And why should my choice of SFX for my ranged attacks change the cost of missile deflecting them? Laser Lad didn't pay any more than RockChucker for his attacks.

 

Given how common the "blasts intercepting one another between the combatants" trope is in some genres, maybe Deflection should also be free, but I think that's better fine tuned to allow the character to define SFX of Block as long as he is Blocking an attack targeting him directly, and leaving Deflection as the "I can block for others at range" power.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't find it confusing. The GM assesses a penalty to the block roll based on what is being blocked, what is being used to block and genre. So, a knight using his shield to block a thrown spear in a Arthurian game would have no penalty and be -2 for an arrow. A samurai cutting an arrow with his katana in a chanbara game would only be -1. Captain Flag has no penalties to block bullets with his shield. Mike Hammer has no chance to block bullet's at all in a noir detective game. Basically, it's a campaign decision like DC limits.

 

 

So... guy 1 in Champs game has paid for normal sword and can't deflect blast while guy 2 buys same sword, defines it as magical and is able to deflect same blast for same points?

I would suggest

 

Guys in Champs game can deflect blasts because that is appropriate in the superheroic genre.

 

Guys in gritty detective game cannot deflect bullets because that is not appropriate in the gritty detective genre.

 

Or maybe they can, but the "block" is ducking behind cover, or otherwise evading the bullet - the SFX, rather than the mechanic, being the genre restriction. At that point, the Champs Guy may rightly question why Gritty Detective can use the mechanic but he can't.

 

IOW, I think Netzilla is suggesting a campaign-level decision, not a character by character decision, on how Block will work.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah the power made more sense than making it free for everybody. That was a change that needn't have happened, now its just confusing and complicated.

Many people have suggested that the need to purchase specialized powers to be able to apply tropes common in the source material makes the Hero System confusing and complicated.

 

Toe May Toe

 

Toe Mah Toe

 

6e finally lets me build a character who can reflect HTH attacks. There was no way to do that under RAW in prior editions. [Vanguard of the Soviet Super Soldiers, if you are looking for source material.] And it makes reflection of more powerful attacks more expensive, so the cost scales with campaign power level.

[Netzilla]

So... guy 1 in Champs game has paid for normal sword and can't deflect blast while guy 2 buys same sword, defines it as magical and is able to deflect same blast for same points?

Not unlike Normal Characteristics Maximum, where a character in one game pays 20 points to have a 30 STR but someone in another pays 30. Likewise for a game where a character with a 18 in INT pays 11 points into Computer Programming and do basically anything computer related at 17-, but an 18 INT character in a cyberpunk game might have to pay for all the possible sub skills and pay way more. It can also be looked at like the old 60 point lawyer debate -- do you just buy KS: Law and PS: Lawyer or do you have to buy separate KSes for each type of Law? The answer is, are you playing Law And Order, the game?

 

There's no guarantee that points will be balanced across different campaigns. It depends on the ground rules set by the GM and the type of game being played.

[Ninja-Bear]

Not unlike Normal Characteristics Maximum, where a character in one game pays 20 points to have a 30 STR but someone in another pays 30. Likewise for a game where a character with a 18 in INT pays 11 points into Computer Programming and do basically anything computer related at 17-, but an 18 INT character in a cyberpunk game might have to pay for all the possible sub skills and pay way more. It can also be looked at like the old 60 point lawyer debate -- do you just buy KS: Law and PS: Lawyer or do you have to buy separate KSes for each type of Law? The answer is, are you playing Law And Order, the game?

 

There's no guarantee that points will be balanced across different campaigns. It depends on the ground rules set by the GM and the type of game being played.

Difference is that the examples you gave all have costs associated with them. I don't mind GM permision but defelction is really wide open to interpretation even in the same genre. One principle you have is you get what you pay for. Able to defelect ranged attacks now, not so much.

 

Actually I'm going to look at deflection with limitations.

[Ninja-Bear]

Whats weird is that now block -ranged acts like HA used to whereas you used need a focus in order to use it. And that changed.

[Spence]

So... guy 1 in Champs game has paid for normal sword and can't deflect blast while guy 2 buys same sword, defines it as magical and is able to deflect same blast for same points?

 

 

Not unlike Normal Characteristics Maximum, where a character in one game pays 20 points to have a 30 STR but someone in another pays 30. Likewise for a game where a character with a 18 in INT pays 11 points into Computer Programming and do basically anything computer related at 17-, but an 18 INT character in a cyberpunk game might have to pay for all the possible sub skills and pay way more. It can also be looked at like the old 60 point lawyer debate -- do you just buy KS: Law and PS: Lawyer or do you have to buy separate KSes for each type of Law? The answer is, are you playing Law And Order, the game?

 

There's no guarantee that points will be balanced across different campaigns. It depends on the ground rules set by the GM and the type of game being played.

 

Or how they differ. 

 

Guy 1 bought his sword with gold or whatever currency he found/stole/killed for or found/looted while Guy 2 invested character points so his sword would be magic with magical effects.

 

For me however, I personally use 5th edition Missile Deflection and Reflection rules.  For me Hero is a SUPERHERO game with WILD TWO FISTED action and the 6th/CC version doesn't cut it for me like FREDs did.

[Netzilla]

You don't necessarily need a focus; you'll just take a penalty. Same as attempting to block a sword with your bare hands.

[Netzilla]

Or how they differ. 

 

Guy 1 bought his sword with gold or whatever currency he found/stole/killed for or found/looted while Guy 2 invested character points so his sword would be magic with magical effects.

 

For me however, I personally use 5th edition Missile Deflection and Reflection rules.  For me Hero is a SUPERHERO game with WILD TWO FISTED action and the 6th/CC version doesn't cut it for me like FREDs did.

Which is perfectly understandable. Different people have different priorities in gaming and if a game has a rule that doesn't fit one's play style, house ruling has a long and storied tradition. Heck, I've got about three pages of rules changes of my own for a supers campaign I'm planning.

[Hugh Neilson]

It goes back many editions, but I am pretty sure Missile Deflection originally required a focus.

[Ninja-Bear]

It goes back many editions, but I am pretty sure Missile Deflection originally required a focus.

I'm sure it did. I know around 4th you could buy it without a focus for such things as knock arrows out of the air.

[Grailknight]

It goes back many editions, but I am pretty sure Missile Deflection originally required a focus.

 

Nope, Focus(or any other limitation) has never been required for anything(except HA).

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw, I here is a build I made for the martial art maste. Deflect Arrows Barehanded: Deflection 20 cp In order to use Bkoxk vs range without focus, you need Deflection. No Range (-1/2), only vs Arrows (-1/2) - ? His considering a ninja hero game where arrows are more likely. Real 10 cp. 5th missile deflection for arrows- 10 pts.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm sure it did. I know around 4th you could buy it without a focus for such things as knock arrows out of the air.

4th feels right for the change. I never played 3rd, and not a lot changed between 1st and 2nd, but 4th was the first real attempt to make everything consistent and reduce outlier rules.

 

As I think on it, I am sure the original description for Missile Deflection required an object be used for the deflection. It may even have been a Skill at that time, rather than a Power.

[Tasha]

Whoops no delete either

[Spence]

As I think on it, I am sure the original description for Missile Deflection required an object be used for the deflection. It may even have been a Skill at that time, rather than a Power.

 

Made me look it up.  Neither 4th or 5th required an object.  I'll need to dig out my 3rd to check it.  I do remember that practically all of the characters I remember bought it through a focus though. 

[Ninja-Bear]

I've been thinking about perhaps maybe defining a set penalty to block at range and then makingba character buy combat skill levels to buy it off and perhaps throw on variable special effect to allow such things as magic shield blocks all attacks not just regular arrows.

[GhostDancer]

Which is perfectly understandable. Different people have different priorities in gaming and if a game has a rule that doesn't fit one's play style, house ruling has a long and storied tradition. Heck, I've got about three pages of rules changes of my own for a supers campaign I'm planning.

 

Which is perfectly understandable. Different people have different priorities in gaming and if a game has a rule that doesn't fit one's play style, house ruling has a long and storied tradition. Heck, I've got about three pages of rules changes of my own for a supers campaign I'm planning.

I'd like to see your supers house rules, please.

[Hugh Neilson]

Made me look it up.  Neither 4th or 5th required an object.  I'll need to dig out my 3rd to check it.  I do remember that practically all of the characters I remember bought it through a focus though.

It had definitely changed by 4e. Not sure if it was 2e to 3e or 3e to 4e as I never worked with 3e.

[Netzilla]

I'd like to see your supers house rules, please.

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