Linking Whole Multipowers

[Alcibiades]

Hi all, as you can see if gotten back into Hero again and hence I'm pestering you with rules questions. I hope you don't mind!

 

My question is if the following is legal. This is a whip that is normally just a whip but in certain circumstances gains magical abilities

 

12 Whip: HKA 1/2d6, Armor-Piercing (+1/4)

 

Whip Tricks: Multipower, all slots Linked (Whip), Conditional Power (it's not important what this is)

1) +1 pip HKA, Armor-Piercing (+1/4), +1 STUN Multiplier, Linked (Whip), Conditional Power, plus +1 STUN Multiplier (+1/4) for 12 points of HKA, Linked (Whip), Conditional Power

2) +1 pip HKA, Armor-Piercing (+1/4), Indirect (+1/4), Linked (Whip), Conditional Power, plus Indirect (+1/4) for 12 points HKA, Linked (Whip), Conditional Powe,

 

etc.

 

The idea here is that normally it's simply a whip with armor-piercing, but when the certain circumstances are met, it can be used with the various multipower slots, each of which contains a 1 pip HKA (making a total 1D6 HKA) with an advantage PLUS a Naked Advantage applied to the first HKA. So that a 1/2 D6 AP HKA becomes a 1D6 AP HKA +1 STUN Multiplier.

 

Is this legal? Especially the linking the whole MP to a single power? Since only one slot can be used at a time.

[Cantriped]

No, for several reasons.

First, according to ​Champions Complete ​a Power bought outside of a Framework can only add onto one Framework Slot, and such a power cannot be used by itself. Also Framework Slots can never add to one another. Buying the Framework Slots as additives to a base power outside of the Framework is never explicitly permitted or prohibited, but doing so would constitute an obvious attempt to circumvent the rule mentioned above... so I don't consider it legal and would never allow it. 

For example:

Extra Blast +1d6 (5 APs). Cost:  5 points.

5-point Multipower Reserve (5 APs). Cost:  5 Points.

1f   1)  Primary Blast 1d6 (5 APs).

Is perfectly legal, but

Primary Blast 1d6 (5 APs). Cost:  5 points.

5-point Multipower Reserve (5 APs). Cost:  5 Points.

1f   1)  Extra Blast +1d6 (5 APs).

is not, even though in this case the end result is the same (2d6 Normal Damage at Range).

 

Second, in order for you to place multiple powers into a single Framework Slot legally, they have to be Linked to one another, or else comprise a Unified Power Set. Whether or not a Power can be Linked to two Powers simultaneously I cannot say. The rules never explicitly permit or prohibit it as far as I can recall.

 

Third, Finally, and simply put: Independent Advantages are treated as Special Powers, and Special Powers cannot be placed in Power Frameworks.

 

A Rules-Legal version of the concept you wish to represent would be:

Tricksey Whip

22-point Multipower Reserve (22 APs); All Slots OAF (-1). Cost: 11 points.

1f   1)  Mundane Whip:  1/2d6 HKA, Armor Piercing (15 APs); OAF Universal. [1 END]

1f   2)  ​Painful Crack:  1d6 HKA, Armor Piercing (+1/4), +1 STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (22 APs); OAF Personal. [2 END]

1f   3)  Curving Crack:​  1d6 HKA, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Indirect (+1/4) (22 APs); OAF Personal. [2 END]

Total Cost: 14 points.

[bigdamnhero]

Hi all, as you can see if gotten back into Hero again and hence I'm pestering you with rules questions. I hope you don't mind!

That's what we're here for! Welcome back.

 

Is this legal? Especially the linking the whole MP to a single power? Since only one slot can be used at a time.

Not per RAW, no. 6e1 p399 or CC p122. It doesn't look particularly abusive to me, but given that Cantriped's version is not only legal but actually cheaper, I'd say going with that. You can still add your Conditional Power to the two 1d6K slots. (Am I correct in assuming that the two Conditions are mutually-exclusive, so it's going to be either Indirect or +1 STUN but not both?)

 

Whether or not a Power can be Linked to two Powers simultaneously I cannot say. The rules never explicitly permit or prohibit it as far as I can recall.

6e1 p383 does say you can Link 3 or more Powers together; but I think it's much cleaner to just use Unified Power.

 

Special Powers cannot be placed in Power Frameworks.

...without GM permission. (It doesn't look like CC/FHC include that caveat, but 5ed & 6ed both do.) For example, I've seen Gun-Fu characters with a Multipower where one slot is AP, another slot is AOE, another is Autofire, or whatever, all applied to "any firearm" or similar. (Mainly in Heroic games where you don't pay points for equipment.) I could swear there are published examples along these lines, but I can't remember where offhand. So if this were a Heroic game where the character pays money for the base whip, I might be inclined to allow something along these lines.

[Cantriped]

CC/FHC exclude "with/without GM permission" caveats altogether. Instead its rules are always phrased definitively; with the assumption that the GM is free to make any change to them they so desire. That concreteness is one of the things I prefer about CC/FHC over earlier editions.

 

[Alcibiades]

Thanks for the info.

 

I'm using the big 6e books, not Champions Complete. This is the first time I've ever seen a distinction between Universal and Personal Foci. What is that? In fact, the reason I didn't do what you suggest is that I couldn't see a way to do this:

 

Multipower, OAF or Linked, Conditional Power, and Restrainable

1: slot 1: OAF

2: slot 2: the same as slot 1, but slightly better, and Linked, Conditional Power, and Restrainable instead of OAF.

 

My big core problem is actually as follows. It seems like it should be simple, but I'm having problems wrapping my noggin around it.

 

What this is is a whip, which I can cause to burst into flame. In addition, when on fire it causes great pain (represented as Increased STUN Multiplier). The flame can be dispelled, causing the flame to lose its dread burniness, and requires that the character concentrate to activate it, and costs END to maintain. Hence I want it to have different statlines for whip and burny-burny whip. In addition, I want the character to be able to use "whip tricks" in both forms. I've been trying to do this in various ways, without success.

 

Now the most obvious way I tried to do this was:

 

Whip: 1/2 D6 HKA

Whip Tricks: Naked Advantage: +1/2 Variable Advantages on 1/2 D6 HKA

 

Cause Whip to Burst into Flame: Images, Only to Create Light, No Range plus Naked Advantage: Variable Special Effects (physical or flame) for HKA (required, I think, to change the special effect from physical whip to fire whip)

 

Burny Whip I: +1 pip HKA, +2 STUN Multiplier, Linked to Images

Burny Whip II: Naked Advantage: +2 STUN Multiplier for 1/2 D6 HKA (required to get the whole 1D6 HKA with + STUN Mult), Linked to Images

Burny Whip Tricks: Naked Advantage: +1/2 Variable Advantages on +1 pip D6 HKA, Linked to Images 

 

The Variable Advantages here are Naked Advantages so that I have the option to not use them and in this case not have to reduce the total damage of the attack when combined with Martial Arts.

 

This seems like it would work, but it's loaded with Naked Advantages and seems too complicated. In addition, I wanted to have these in small Multipowers, with the other slot being + Strength only to grab with whip. But you can't put Naked Advantages in Frameworks... or add slots in different multipowers together. So I cannot do this:

 

Whip, Multipower

1. Whip Strike: 1/2 D6 HKA plus Naked Advantage: +1/2 Variable Advantages on 1/2 D6 HKA

2. Whip Grab: +15 STR only to strike or grab with whip

 

Cause Whip to Burst into Flame: Images, Only to Create Light, No Range plus Naked Advantage: Variable Special Effects (physical or flame) for HKA

 

Burny Whip: Multipower, all Slots Linked to Images

1. Burny Whip Strike: +1 pip HKA, +2 STUN Multiplier plus Naked Advantage: +2 STUN Multiplier for 1/2 D6 HKA (required to get the whole 1D6 HKA with + STUN Mult) plus Naked Advantage: +1/2 Variable Advantages on +1 pip D6 HKA plus Naked Advantage: +1/2 Variable Advantages on +1 pip D6 HKA

 

2. Burny Whip Grab: +15 STR only to strike or grab with whip (adds to Whip Grab slot)

 

This is not legal, because 1) Naked Advantages in Frameworks and 2) slots in different Frameworks adding to each other. So I've been trying getting rid of the Naked Advantages and consolidating this into a single Multipower somehow.

 

Also, Bigdamnhero asked:

"(Am I correct in assuming that the two Conditions are mutually-exclusive, so it's going to be either Indirect or +1 STUN but not both?)"
 

 

Yes, in the case in the original post.

[bigdamnhero]

This is the first time I've ever seen a distinction between Universal and Personal Foci. What is that?

 Anyone can use a Universal Focus, while only the character can use a Personal Focus. It doesn't change the cost, so a lot of people leave it out of the writeups. [6e1 p380 under Applicability]

 

the reason I didn't do what you suggest is that I couldn't see a way to do this:

 

Multipower, OAF or Linked, Conditional Power, and Restrainable

1: slot 1: OAF

2: slot 2: the same as slot 1, but slightly better, and Linked, Conditional Power, and Restrainable instead of OAF.

That works, except the Limitations that are different for different slots only go on those slots; and only the Limitations that apply to every slot go on the MP itself. So for example, if all slots have AP then you can put AP on the MP itself, so it reduces the cost of both the MP and the slot; but if the Conditional Power only applies to the 2nd slot then you only apply it to that slot, so it reduces the cost of that slot, but not the overall MP. [6e1 p405]

 

And the 1st slot won't be maxed out on AP (because if it did, then the 2nd slot wouldn't fit), but that's perfectly legal.

 

I'm not clear why the second slot doesn't have OAF? Don't you need a physical whip in either case?

 

What this is is a whip, which I can cause to burst into flame. In addition, when on fire it causes great pain (represented as Increased STUN Multiplier). The flame can be dispelled, causing the flame to lose its dread burniness, and requires that the character concentrate to activate it, and costs END to maintain. Hence I want it to have different statlines for whip and burny-burny whip.

That can be done with an MP similar to what Cantriped suggested: one slot for regular whip, and a 2nd slot for burny whip with the additional Advantages & Limitations on that slot only.

 

The fact that the burny part is Dispellable requires a little more thought, but can also be done. Dispel normally only affects a single slot anyway, and the Power can normally be restarted on the character's next Phase. So GM & Player just agree that if the flame whip is dispelled it "defaults" back to the base whip slot on the Character's next Phase. (Activating a Power takes no time, so this is mechanically transparent.)

 

In addition, I want the character to be able to use "whip tricks" in both forms.

Yeah...that's where things get complicated. If you only wanted to be able to do whip tricks when it was on fire, then you'd just add additional slots.

 

Whip MP

1. Base Whip

2. Fiery Whip

3. Fiery Whip with Indirect

4. Fiery Whip with Grab

...etc

 

But to be able to do that with both, you'd have to make two versions of each trick, one burny & one not:

 

Whip MP

1. Base Whip

2. Fiery Whip

3. Base Whip with Indirect

4. Fiery Whip with Indirect

5. Base Whip with Grab

6. Fiery Whip with Grab

...etc

 

Yeah, that's going to get tedious quick, but it's the only way I can think of to do it legally. And if each slot is only 1 or 2 CP, it might not be prohibitively expensive. The issue is you're essentially trying to mix two different Frameworks: one for fiery vs not-fiery, and one for whip tricks. And that's a huge no-no under RAW, because the potential for munchkinism is too high.

 

That said, if I were your GM you came to me with this concept? I might let you get away with having a Whip Tricks MP, and then outside the MP have a separate Fiery Whip Power that adds to every slot of the MP; but instead of letting you take Linked as a Limitation, maybe I'd charge you a +1/4 Advantage for "Applies To Every Slot of MP in Blatant Defiance of RAW." Mostly because I think it's a cool concept, it doesn't seem overbalancing to me* and I can't think of another way to do it without getting horrendously complicated and expensive. But we're well into "...unless the GM rules otherwise" territory here, so others may not agree.

 

* Assuming it stays within campaign guidelines for damage, etc.

 

Yes, in the case in the original post.

Thanks, just making sure I read you correctly.

[DasBroot]

No, for several reasons.

First, according to ​Champions Complete ​a Power bought outside of a Framework can only add onto one Framework Slot, and such a power cannot be used by itself. Also Framework Slots can never add to one another. Buying the Framework Slots as additives to a base power outside of the Framework is never explicitly permitted or prohibited, but doing so would constitute an obvious attempt to circumvent the rule mentioned above... so I don't consider it legal and would never allow it. 

For example:

Is perfectly legal, but

is not, even though in this case the end result is the same (2d6 Normal Damage at Range).

 

 

I've always found that limitation interesting.  You can't have a blast that can be used without using one of its multi-powers - but you *can* use your Strength to inflict damage without having to use a hand attack or hka in a multi power if you don't want.

 

It's a semantic thing - hand attack / killing hand attack are powers which add *bonus* damage from strength: they don't add to the damage strength does, technically.  

 

If the damage from strength is 'bonus' and you can use it without using a multi power slot that benefits from it then I wonder what the reasoning behind not allowing a Blast (or other power) the same priviledge (can use it on its own outside of the pool, or combine as bonus damage (pro-rating, etc) to a blast inside the pool?

 

It's RAW but I still find it interesting.  Letting outside pool powers combine with similar pool powers could lead to some interesting concepts ... like a person who can turn invisible (invisible sight) all the time but if they try hard (use a pool reserve) then can make themselves inaudible as well or hide their fringe.  If they do, though, they won't be able to use their invisible force blasts or create force fields that are also in the pool.

 

(I know it's a poor example because invisibility is cheap enough that they take mutliple copies - the one I described outside the pool, and a copy with the desired modifiers inside the pool and use it instead to replicate the exact same results, but still).

[Cantriped]

That works, except the Limitations that are different for different slots only go on those slots; and only the Limitations that apply to every slot go on the MP itself. So for example, if all slots have AP then you can put AP on the MP itself, so it reduces the cost of both the MP and the slot; but if the Conditional Power only applies to the 2nd slot then you only apply it to that slot, so it reduces the cost of that slot, but not the overall MP. [6e1 p405]

In CC/FHC the only Advantage you can place on the Multipower to apply to All Slots is Charges (as an Advantage), and in that case all of the slots share the same pool of charges. For example:

Forever Blaster:  5-point Multipower Reserve, All Slots​ Zero END (+1/2) (7 APs); All Slots OAF (-1). Cost:  3 points.

1f   1)  Blast 1d6 (Energy) (5 APs).

1f   2)  RKA 1-pip (Energy) (5 APs).

Total Cost:  5 points.

Isn't considered legal.

[Cantriped]

Tricksey Whip

22-point Multipower Reserve (22 APs); All Slots OAF (-1). Cost: 11 points.

1f   1)  Mundane Whip:  1/2d6 HKA (Physical), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Zero END (+1/2) (17 APs); OAF Universal.

1f   2)  ​Grappling Crack:  +15 STR (15 APs), Only to Grab & Throw (-1) ​plus +5m Stretching (5 APs); Always Direct (-1/4), Linked (+15 STR; -1/2), No Noncombat (-1/4) All Slots​ OAF Personal. [2 END]

1f   3)  Curving Crack:​  1d6 HKA (Physical), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Indirect (+1/4) (22 APs); OAF Personal. [2 END]

1f   4)  ​Flaming Crack:  1d6 HKA (Energy), Armor Piercing (+1/4), +1 STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (22 APs); OAF Personal. [2 END]

Total Cost: 15 points.

 

Create Light Trick:  Images To Sight (+4 PER), Area Of Effect (4 2m Areas; +1/2), Zero END (+1/2) (44 APs); Lockout (Tricksey Whip; -1/2), OAF Personal (-1), Only To Create Light (-1). Total Cost:  12 points.

Here is an updated version, I mess up on the math for Mundane Whip the first time. Slots 2-4 are "Tricks" so only the character can use them, but anybody can use the Focus as a normal whip. Regarding the Create Light Trick, I used "Any Area" because the length of the whip is producing light, and you could arrange it to fill only certain spaces with light. It has lockout because you can't really hit people with the whip effectively while your using it as a torch. It was bought outside the multipower because it doesn't fit; although you could probably save points by increasing the Reserve to fit it and removing Lockout. Creating Light is almost always stupidly expensive... its one of the most awkward things about HERO.

[Alcibiades]

 

 

I'm not clear why the second slot doesn't have OAF? Don't you need a physical whip in either case?

 

The reason (and this further complicates things) is that -- I guess I have to explain the character for this to make sense.

 

The character is a classical Fury from Greek myth that has been changed into human form. One side effect of this is that, since classical Furies could not follow their victims into areas in which they had the protection of (other) gods, whenever the character enters such a place -- a church, temple, synagogue, what have you -- all her divine abilities shut down, as only the human part is allowed within.

 

In this state, the whip is just a whip. You can take it away (it's an OAF). It can't light. However, outside of such an area, it is simply Restrainable, as the character can summon it.

 

After pondering this, I thought -- could I just make the flame a damage shield _on the whip_?

 

The Lash of Conscience, all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; OAF, Restrainable, Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I), and Conditional Power power does not woth in a Sanctuary; -1/2)

 

7 The Grip of Conscience:  +10 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (15 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (only to Disarm and Grab with whip (no squeezing); -1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; OAF, Restrainable, Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I), and Conditional Power; -1/2)

 

4 The Lash of Conscience I:  Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (10 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; OAF, Restrainable, Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I), and Conditional Power; -1/2), Reduced Penetration (-1/4)

 

7 The Lash of Conscience II:  Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; +3/4) for up to 10 Active Points of HKA, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (10 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; OAF, Restrainable, Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I), and Conditional Power; -1/2)

 

1 The Reach of Conscience:  Stretching 3m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (4 Active Points); Only To Cause Damage (-1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; OAF, Restrainable, Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I), and Conditional Power; -1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), Limited Body Parts (whip; -1/4), no Noncombat Stretching (-1/4)

 

then the flame. She has to ignite the torch with an act of will, i.e., turn on Images.

 

The Flame of Chastisement, all slots Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

2 The Burning Reach of Conscience:  Stretching + 5m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Lesser Power need not be used proportionally to Power with which it is Linked; -1/2), Only To Cause Damage (-1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), no Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (whip; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

7 The Flame of Chastisement I:  Sight Group Images, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Difficult To Dispel (x8 Active Points; +3/4) (20 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

22 The Flame of Chastisement II:  Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Area Of Effect (1m Surface; +1/4), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), +4 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

24 The Flame of Chastisement III:  Drain DEX and END 2d6, Area Of Effect (1m Surface; +1/4), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (65 Active Points); Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Flame of Chastisement II must do STUN; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

12 The Spiritual Grip of Conscience:  Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) for up to 40 Active Points of STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only Disarm and Grab with whip (no squeezing); -1/2), Linked (The Flame of Chastisement I; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

 

jeeze ... this is really expensive for what it does!

[Cantriped]

The reason (and this further complicates things) is that -- I guess I have to explain the character for this to make sense.

 

The character is a classical Fury from Greek myth that has been changed into human form. One side effect of this is that, since classical Furies could not follow their victims into areas in which they had the protection of (other) gods, whenever the character enters such a place -- a church, temple, synagogue, what have you -- all her divine abilities shut down, as only the human part is allowed within.

In that case you could just make all of the slots in my example Multipower other than the Mundane Whip slot take Limited (Not On Holy Ground; -1/4).

 

In this state, the whip is just a whip. You can take it away (it's an OAF). It can't light. However, outside of such an area, it is simply Restrainable, as the character can summon it.

Trying to make the Whip act as an OAF in one rare condition, but OIF or Physical Manifestation in all others is going to be needlessly complicated.

 

Have you considered instead just purchasing your Whip as a Cosmic Variable Power Pool with fairly strict limitations on what powers in can generate, and a conditional modifier that limits it to "Mundane Whip" mode while on Holy Ground?

[Alcibiades]

 

Have you considered instead just purchasing your Whip as a Cosmic Variable Power Pool with fairly strict limitations on what powers in can generate, and a conditional modifier that limits it to "Mundane Whip" mode while on Holy Ground?

 

I... not at all. That never occured to me.